My credit card continues to get passed around DeeCash or IncredibleDollars

[gonzo]

See the link at the end of the post...thought it might be of interest.
This really is the end of the industry. I hope you all sit in jail together.

So now I get an email last night telling me about my new membership to UltraDvdPass.com, I never joined this site. Only thing I did was join an IncredibleDollars site about 2 weeks ago.

This is all related to the scamming from joining an incredible dollars site and getting a DeeCash site when cancelling. Even though I unchecked the box.

Does anyone know who I should contact? Is it legal for them to just pass around my credit card data to other companies and add memberships? This really seems criminal to me.

Apparently the scamming company buying this traffic is ArchiveCash.com?

After my last thread I was told that the scamming is all from RSBilling and that they are behind it? Does anyone have any info on them? I would love to see any kind of proof on this membership. Anyone have any Visa contacts or banks that I could provide this info to? Does anyone even care?

Someone should go to jail over this. My credit card is actually ruined. Thank God I am in this business. I don't know what the poor surfer is doing.

http://www.justblowme.com/showthread.php?t=98113

[Toby]

SSDD

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Toby

SSDD

Interesting are Kimmy Kims comments... as well as 12clicks.
Same usual suspects are there to do the spin on this issue regarding both companies.

If I were the guy I wouldnt give up the information unless I had cancelled that credit card.

[Toby]

Yup, always the same group of "bro's" involved in these threads. Way too much shady shit going on. Not all of it is initiated by these scammers, but at the very least they don't do enough to vet the people they're dealing with.

My debit card got hit by Fling back in April. While I do use that card online quite a bit I hadn't used it for any adult membership sites (no need). I still don't know how they got my card info, including the CVV and billing address. It almost has to have been an insider at one of the billing companies or a security breach.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Toby

Yup, always the same group of "bro's" involved in these threads. Way too much shady shit going on. Not all of it is initiated by these scammers, but at the very least they don't do enough to vet the people they're dealing with.

My debit card got hit by Fling back in April. While I do use that card online quite a bit I hadn't used it for any adult membership sites (no need). I still don't know how they got my card info, including the CVV and billing address. It almost has to have been an insider or a security breach at one of the billing companies.

Sounds like the industry could use a join page police...

[RawAlex]

Dee denies like crazy. He knows that he is enough shell companies away from everything to not get nailed personally. Notice he refers to "my entity", like some sort of legal alter ego.

Time is now for the apparently honest third party billing companies get the fuck out of the cross sale business, and let the real crooks all end up on one processor that will die from the chargebacks.

CCBill, Epoch, netbilling, etc? You guys want to speak up and say your part?

[Toby]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Time is now for the apparently honest third party billing companies get the fuck out of the cross sale business, and let the real crooks all end up on one processor that will die from the chargebacks.

That won't happen until either the liability associated out-weighs the income they're making from the processing fees or VISA steps in and says "No more!" I think the latter is more likely than the former.

[DannyCox]

I just goes round and round. These guys never answer the direct questions like explaining why they all use the same "support" sites, yet they say they are in no way related. Direct questions to Dee et all never get direct answers.

You really have to be a fool to deal with any of these companies, mainly because if they have no problem ripping off the consumer they will have no problem ripping off their affiliates. Low Morals cross all boundaries!

But, I just love reading the posts from the absolute nobody's who try and defend them

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by dannycox

low morals cross all boundaries!

But, i just love reading the posts from the absolute nobody's who try and defend them

par-tay!!!

[softball]

That won't happen until either the liability associated out-weighs the income they're making from the processing fees or VISA steps in and says "No more!" I think the latter is more likely than the former.

wasn't that the Ibill business model?

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

wasn't that the Ibill business model?

Some of the same names spoke up and said how Ibill was top notch and stand up guys too...

[tony404]

prechecked cross sales become a no no lots of companies will be gone.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by tony404

prechecked cross sales become a no no lots of companies will be gone.

Along with alot of webmasters that are promoting nothing but those $70+ PPS programs.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Toby

Along with alot of webmasters that are promoting nothing but those $70+ PPS programs.

Apparently not realizing that those same programs are collecting upwards to $300 a signup with all the cross sales (and what looks like card number trading or delayed cross sale moves).

Mcjobs to all!

[DannyCox]

The thing is, for paysite owners, this whole prechecked cross sale bullshit is costing us all money. I've received a number of e-mails from surfers saying they love a site but just will not use a credit card or check on-line for any Porn as they have been ripped off. The e-mails are somewhat similar to ones we would received back in 1996 or so from people just afraid to use credit cards on-line. It's been over 10 years since I heard that, and this year, we've probably received 20 of them.

Once someone gets burned once, they get pretty shy about trusting anyone. Keep in mind that many of the best customers are serial porn buyers, but once they get taken, they find another source. The longer these billing companies allow it, the worse it will get. Not just for us, but for the billing companies themselves! Yet some still say that abusing customers and taking advantage of them is just a smart business practice (okay, my words). I can't think of any business (outside of gas, oil & utility companies) that can survive in the long run by scamming their clientele.

One day, I would like to hear the full rational from one of the billing companies as to why they even allow this purely underhanded tactic.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by DannyCox

The thing is, for paysite owners, this whole prechecked cross sale bullshit is costing us all money. I've received a number of e-mails from surfers saying they love a site but just will not use a credit card or check on-line for any Porn as they have been ripped off. The e-mails are somewhat similar to ones we would received back in 1996 or so from people just afraid to use credit cards on-line. It's been over 10 years since I heard that, and this year, we've probably received 20 of them.

Once someone gets burned once, they get pretty shy about trusting anyone. Keep in mind that many of the best customers are serial porn buyers, but once they get taken, they find another source. The longer these billing companies allow it, the worse it will get. Not just for us, but for the billing companies themselves! Yet some still say that abusing customers and taking advantage of them is just a smart business practice (okay, my words). I can't think of any business (outside of gas, oil & utility companies) that can survive in the long run by scamming their clientele.

One day, I would like to hear the full rational from one of the billing companies as to why they even allow this purely underhanded tactic.

I see the same thing, I would bet anyone who runs their sites in a manner where the users can interact are seeing the same thing. If 20 bitch, they speak for 200? 2000? more?

So how do you re-assure them and gain trust back or let them know you're different.

There's opportunity there for a new processor. Same type deal that NATS did with affiliate programs when they came along promising "shave proof", there's an opportunity for a new biller to enter who guarantees the integrity of the transaction.

there are a ton of obstacles to make that work. ccbill and paycom are both already tainted as many surfers feel burnt by sites running those over the whole cross sell thing.

I will say that I've seen fewer blind cross sells, that's good. But I'm also seeing more cross sells in general with full disclosure from big players who previously steered well clear. Mixed feelings there as even Amazon does upsells in that manner.

It's all about disclosure.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

There's opportunity there for a new processor. Same type deal that NATS did with affiliate programs when they came along promising "shave proof", there's an opportunity for a new biller to enter who guarantees the integrity of the transaction.

O signal ignited for the join page police.

[RawAlex]

Hell Puppy: What Amazon (and others do) is present you with extra options you can take. However, those options are rarely if ever "pre checked", and there is always a ton of disclosure and such about what it is you are getting.

Most importantly, none of them are recurring, none of them turn into credit card bombs if you fail to cancel each one individually, and none of them magically appears a couple of weeks later.

My feeling is this: If you have pre-checked cross sales, then you need to have a unified cancel method: One cancel stops everything. Surfers should also be able to see a list of all memberships they have purchased, and be able to cancel any or all of them from a single clear place. Cross sales should never be pre-checked, because we are talking about not only a sale but a recurring. Each of the pre-checks should have a clear terms and conditions link for each item. Sales forms should be required to clearly indicate "total charges today" "total charges in the next 7 days" "total monthly recurring charges" in a format that is both clear, concise, in numeric form, and right next to (and above) the actual join button.

You know if they did that, they would have very, very few sales.

[ali25extreme]

I would start using prepaid cards when going onto some of these sites if I were a surfer. Seems to be the smart way to go with all the scams going around.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by ali25extreme

I would start using prepaid cards when going onto some of these sites if I were a surfer. Seems to be the smart way to go with all the scams going around.

Many of the prepaid cards don't have an associated billing address, so they won't work online if the card processor it using that as part of their card validation.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Toby

Many of the prepaid cards don't have an associated billing address, so they won't work online if the card processor it using that as part of their card validation.

Toby, honestly, i think most of the cross sale jammers aren't even looking for a pulse, let alone a valid address. They just want sales.

[tony404]

My wife had a guy write her.He wants to join by money order because he once got slammed so hard by a site. He also said you are not going to send me a bill for extra fees are you?
My friend has a clips4sale store this guy buys over $200 of clips from her. He wrote her how he loved her stuff.She told him you know you can join my site. He said he got burned and would never join a membership site again. Its really sad. To fuck with the few willing to pull out a credit card in these hard times so so short sighted. The thing that pisses me off is if visa comes down on our industry. Chances are they are going to add something that's going to fuck it up for all of us.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by tony404

My wife had a guy write her.He wants to join by money order because he once got slammed so hard by a site. He also said you are not going to send me a bill for extra fees are you?
My friend has a clips4sale store this guy buys over $200 of clips from her. He wrote her how he loved her stuff.She told him you know you can join my site. He said he got burned and would never join a membership site again. Its really sad. To fuck with the few willing to pull out a credit card in these hard times so so short sighted. The thing that pisses me off is if visa comes down on our industry. Chances are they are going to add something that's going to fuck it up for all of us.

Yeah, that's another sign we're regressing. I'm seeing more money orders than I've seen in 10 years.

And I hate those damned things, they make me go to the bank during business hours.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by ali25extreme

I would start using prepaid cards when going onto some of these sites if I were a surfer. Seems to be the smart way to go with all the scams going around.

Citibank has a solution which I use for pretty much all online transactions. They can generate virtual card numbers which can have date or spend limits or both.

[RawAlex]

In a business that was once 1 in 50, you piss off one guy, and suddenly you are 1 in 100. Piss off another guy, and you are 1 in 200... It's happened a few more time and now we are like 1 in 4000.

How much longer will people tolerate this stuff?

[DannyCox]

We also have many long time members that stopped using credit cards and go through the tedious money order and mail process because they have been taken by others in this industry. It's not that they no longer trust us, they just no longer trust the whole system, especially the billing companies that not only allow, but promote, these shady practices.

I always think it's quite funny that our sometimes vocal billing company reps never respond in threads such as this.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by DannyCox

We also have many long time members that stopped using credit cards and go through the tedious money order and mail process because they have been taken by others in this industry. It's not that they no longer trust us, they just no longer trust the whole system, especially the billing companies that not only allow, but promote, these shady practices.

I always think it's quite funny that our sometimes vocal billing company reps never respond in threads such as this.

Haven't looked to see if you already do this, but here's a DOS tip for those guys: offer mail in pricing a year at a time at a good discount.

Works like a charm on amateur sites especially when they are doing renewals like that. i'm more tolerante of depositing larger money orders than a stack of $20 ones.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Haven't looked to see if you already do this, but here's a DOS tip for those guys: offer mail in pricing a year at a time at a good discount.

Works like a charm on amateur sites especially when they are doing renewals like that. i'm more tolerante of depositing larger money orders than a stack of $20 ones.

DragonBilling door!

[ali25extreme]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Citibank has a solution which I use for pretty much all online transactions. They can generate virtual card numbers which can have date or spend limits or both.

Sounds like a good way to go to me!

[tony404]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Yeah, that's another sign we're regressing. I'm seeing more money orders than I've seen in 10 years.

And I hate those damned things, they make me go to the bank during business hours.

The worse are non usa mo's. We got one from canada once,the fees and it took forever to actually get in the account. I was like no more overseas mo's.

[DannyCox]

Just tell people from out of country to send you an International Money Order drawn in US Funds.

[Top_Of_Google_Man]

Since all the wm forums "noise" started has anyone seen anything change on the join pages? Any of them starting to try cover their asses?

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Top_Of_Google_Man

Since all the wm forums "noise" started has anyone seen anything change on the join pages? Any of them starting to try cover their asses?

There has been a reduction in 'below the submit' cross sales, many have moved the check boxes back above the button.

However, the shady stuff after the initial join seems to be on the increase.

[Hell Puppy]

I pretty much agree with Toby.

I would say in general the good news is disclosure is improving. The "bad news", depending on your perspective, is more programs are participating including some that historically have never really tweaked their members much with these kinda games.

I hate to say it but that adds up to cross sells becoming more and more accepted by the industry so long as there is good disclosure.

[Toby]

Unfortunately the part that seems to be growing is the really shady shit that is further along in the process where you can't see it just by clicking through the join process up to the point of actually submitting your card.

I'm suspect of any program offering a PPS significantly higher than the one month join price, that isn't a short term promo.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by Toby

I'm suspect of any program offering a PPS significantly higher than the one month join price, that isn't a short term promo.

in other words.... if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

[centrerelax]

what happpen ?????