Old timers, since you are gone now , why do you keep coming back to ...

[Vick]

those who now populate Oprano might take a minute to review this thread

and maybe think about what's been chased away

and would Oprano be a better messageboard with the thoughtful input that was in this thread for a few minutes

See ya' in the funny papers

Now I'll disappear in a puff of logic


POOF

[JR]

Originally Posted by Jace

just like serge and his army used the term "surfmasters" like it was the last word left on earth, the other side kept using "old timers"....and while I got caught up in it, when people got banned is when I realized that I was caught up something fucking stupid and stopped

i agree that its all stupid. its childish. it is however, entertaining at times.

maybe we are just misunderstanding each other i guess. i haven't spent much time reading your posts and probably understand less than i should about you. but joe is a good example of what i am talking about and whats really obnoxious and annoying to me. i just keep seeing the same old thing "we want a nice, happy place where we can all learn and be friends" and the reality is threads like this and the same old replies, same old arguments and same old BS keeps popping up. if anyones true interest was "business" and "learning" this thread would be an absolute turn off.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by JR

if anyones true interest was "business" and "learning" this thread would be an absolute turn off.

Its amazing how much ground you can make up when you focus more on getting things done as opposed to refreshing and replying!

That being said JR... Im sure you know my bladder is about to burst.

[Jace]

Originally Posted by JR

i agree that its all stupid. its childish. it is however, entertaining at times.

maybe we are just misunderstanding each other i guess. i haven't spent much time reading your posts and probably under less than i should about you. but joe is a good example of what i am talking about and whats really obnoxious and annoying to me. i just keep seeing the same old thing "we want a nice, happy place where we can all learn and be friends" and the reality is threads like this and the same old replies, same old arguments and same old BS keeps popping up. if anyones true interest was "business" and "learning" this thread would be an absolute turn off.

Let me just end my discussion with one point. I am VERY young in this biz, my 6 or so years have nothing on a lot of the people that did popluate this board....so, while I may not jump in on the bashing of certain other members, it doesn't mean I don't agree with the points of those bashing, it means that I AM young and don't want to burn bridges that could be profitable in the future

Not everyone has agreeing views, and I think Joe is a big enough man and professional enough to accept that I don't agree with his view that old timers need to leave...I never agreed with that, and while I may have gotten caught up in the bullshit at times and jumped on a bandwagon that I know now that I should not have jumped on, I just want it to be known that I do not agree on that point.

I do however agree with the newbie bashing thing, but that is only because I do own a paysite and some other sites that I would love to see reach a 7 figure earning one day, and bashing my future traffic sources is not the way to go about that

if I didn't have a successful business that at time depends on the work of others that I have not met yet, or have just met, I probably would be all over the bashing like white on rice

[JR]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Its amazing how much ground you can make up when you focus more on getting things done as opposed to refreshing and replying!

That being said JR... Im sure you know my bladder is about to burst.

haha... i have thought about that on more than one occasion. i keep a few logins to religious and other forums handy for the occasional "off site" venting

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by JR

haha... i have thought about that on more than one occasion. i keep a few logins to religious and other forums handy for the occasional "off site" venting

Part of the appeal to this board is the piss factor. The reward vs effort doesnt pay off as much though...at least for me. Youve also got to consider that in the end a lot of people just dont care.

People can install spyware, be caught shaving, divert your traffic basically steal from you and many will tell you they are "good guys" because they bought em a drink or dinner at a show or sent em a Fleshlight to spank their crank.

Then there are those that you assume are very shrew businesswise for many years. Come to find out luck was more of a factor than you ever realized.

Then there are those that are one job removed from either working fast food or worse yet back on the streets or living out the back of their car. They will lie cheat and steal just to continue to hang on to that job and be a "rockstar".

[PornoDoggy]

It is nice to see some people have maybe learned something.

At least one person in this thread used to thrive on the shit. In fact, he'd wet his finger to see which way the wind was blowing and try to stir up as much as he could - never with a shred of creativity or originality, to be sure, but certainly going with what he perceived to be the flow.

The other nice thing is to see the resident schizoid personality develop some peer relationships. Obviously, the latest phamacocktial the shrinks have got him on are working, and hopefully will last longer than previous combinations.

See ... even I can be positive.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

At least one person in this thread used to thrive on the shit. In fact, he'd wet his finger to see which way the wind was blowing and try to stir up as much as he could - never with a shred of creativity or originality, to be sure, but certainly going with what he perceived to be the flow.

I still find it great fun. Just no longer profitable.

"Evolve or Die"

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I still find it great fun. Just no longer profitable.

Then perhaps you did not stay at the feet of the master long enough

Find the formula, repeat repeat repeat

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Then perhaps you did not stay at the feet of the master long enough

Find the formula, repeat repeat repeat

I found a different formula. Execute execute execute.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

yeah they are just gettign pressured to come and spout of, used is the proper term I am looking for I guess. ( or bitch )

but hey if it pays the rent for them I guess a person has to do what a person has to do.

it is hard to make money in todays world LOL

I can't help but think you're refering to me... I'm here on my own coin posting what I want to post. No one pays my bills but me.

As for it's hard to make money in today's world... that must be just you.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

see ya, have fun in mainstream, dont let that door hit you in the ass.

Well - I might just have changed my opinion a tad bit about Jace due to his latest posts

However Joesho just keep on digging, until he will not be able to crawl up from the hole he stands in

[JoesHO]

Yawn......

same shit, same people, and yet business moves forward.

participate if you want to, but why keep trying to fuck with the board, or with gonzo?

give the guy a chance I mean he paid out the money , cold hard cash, it is his , no payments, no bullshit

why try to destroy it before he gets started?

what you think of me really doesnt matter, I mean I been around for three yrs now and have not needed any business from you, or will I .
and have continued to grow.

I have a nice home, a nice business, and a great future .

things could not be better , so I really dont give a fuck about you or what you do.

act el;ite if you want to ( we all know you are not )

But at least try to be a grown up and quit fucking with this place .
and the new people that come here. Because you have nothing to offer them either.

[JR]

you bait people with this thread... you start instigating with your posts... then you cry foul? if you are truly gonzos friend or genuinely believe anything you have ever said about what you want oprano to be... then you can help change the tone of the board anytime you wish by simply practicing a little impulse control and exercising a little maturity yourself.

[JoesHO]

Originally Posted by JR

you bait people with this thread... you start instigating with your posts... then you cry foul? if you are truly gonzos friend or genuinely believe anything you have ever said about what you want oprano to be... then you can help change the tone of the board anytime you wish by simply practicing a little impulse control and exercising a little maturity yourself.

Not when the moron brigade keeps coming around making complaints and trying to make it like it was.....

remember one thing in life

YOU CAN NEVER GO BACK ...... it will never be the same .

best thing now and always is to move forward.

Oprano can be and should be a very useful board , I trhink Gonzo will put it on the right path no matter how many times you idiots cry to him on icq.

if you truely are not here to cause problems and want a good place to be then act like it .

you have stated over and over again,

1.) you are not in the adult business, and have not been for some time

2.) You only came here to chat with old friends..... they are all gone now
so why do you come now? to fight with me ? is that what will cure your boredom now? to mouth of to rhetorical? to call newbies stupid?
what is the pint of you coming by now really? you have already stated that you do not like most of the people here now, and that all your old friends have left for greener pastuers ...why not join them ?

[softball]

"the bottom line is that you guys are basically newbs talking above your own heads," from JR..


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sure son. HAHAHAHAHA

OK, JR, how long you been around and wtf is it you do anyway apart from fucking with people? I have no idea so why don't you tell us about your .....how many years in business? Then we can judge all your newbie bullshit for what it is.

[softball]

Originally Posted by JR

you bait people with this thread... you start instigating with your posts... then you cry foul? if you are truly gonzos friend or genuinely believe anything you have ever said about what you want oprano to be... then you can help change the tone of the board anytime you wish by simply practicing a little impulse control and exercising a little maturity yourself.

Maturity JR? Now that is pretty funny coming from you who thinks making up lies to bait the IRS is fun.

[softball]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

"the bottom line is that you guys are basically newbs talking above your own heads," from JR..


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sure son. HAHAHAHAHA

OK, JR, how long you been around and wtf is it you do anyway apart from fucking with people? I have no idea so why don't you tell us about your .....how many years in business? Then we can judge all your newbie bullshit for what it is.

Oh yeah, and if you have been doing it for a lot longer than me, I will tip my hat to you. But I doubt it.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

1.) you are not in the adult business, and have not been for some time

2.) You only came here to chat with old friends..... they are all gone now
so why do you come now? to fight with me ? is that what will cure your boredom now? to mouth of to rhetorical? to call newbies stupid?
what is the pint of you coming by now really? you have already stated that you do not like most of the people here now, and that all your old friends have left for greener pastuers ...why not join them ?

I am very much in the adult business and fighting with you is like hitting a retard with a stick.

I like oprano and have since it's beginning, I'll continue to post here until Gonzo decides it's game over for me. As you say it's his now and I wish him all the best with this place.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

YOU CAN NEVER GO BACK ...... it will never be the same

History repeats itself - if you believe otherwise, then you will not come out on top on the other end

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

1.) you are not in the adult business, and have not been for some time

2.) You only came here to chat with old friends..... they are all gone now
so why do you come now? to fight with me ? is that what will cure your boredom now? to mouth of to rhetorical? to call newbies stupid?
what is the pint of you coming by now really? you have already stated that you do not like most of the people here now, and that all your old friends have left for greener pastuers ...why not join them ?

Its unbelievable that your analytic skills have not gotten you in any fatal situation yet - you are a breathing miracle!

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

Oprano can be and should be a very useful board , I trhink Gonzo will put it on the right path no matter how many times you idiots cry to him on icq.

if you truely are not here to cause problems and want a good place to be then act like it .

Says the idiot who are making threads with subjects like "Old timers, since you are gone now , why do you keep coming back to...".
I see how you are such a good standup guy, that does not want to cause problems on Oprano or for Gonzo. You have no anger in your body, you are just peace love and harmony. Fuck, when I see JoesHo and Rhetorical, then I think Gandhi and Mother Theresa were some evil bitches compared to these two

Please tell us about how you are going to saturate this board with good insightful, and analytic posts. How you are going to help the newbie to make money with your competitors sites. How you will personally hold their hand thru the process of building their paysites. And lastly will give them your content and traffic source details. You are such a standup guy - Joesho the surfmaster savior

[Mike AI]

This is a classic thread. Very humerous.

It seems to be very arbitrary who gets banned on Oprano, and who does not. It seems to me both some old timers, and other newbs are doing the same thing, yet only some people get banned.

I am against banning, unless it is to protect the board from script/server issues - things that are destructive the the infrastructure, otherwise I think people should be allowed to blowviate. Even if they do look like idiots....

[venturi]

Originally Posted by Rolo

History repeats itself - if you believe otherwise, then you will not come out on top on the other end

I believe the phrase your subconscious was screaming to get out while you typed that is: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." - coined by the philosopher George Santayana.

[cj]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

well they be just like you, and never have met me.
or have seriously made an error in judgement .

I don't think Rolo has made the error in judgement joe.

I have heard nothing but positive things from those who have met you in person, but this is the internet and when you give the impression of being an absolute moron on boards, that's how you'll be judged.

You should post less.
Every post you make is dumber than the one before.

What's the OLD TIMERS pearl? Better to be thought to be an idiot than to open your mouth and prove it?

Perhaps if you spent less time bitching about the old timers opinions and more time minding your own business, people wouldn't make errors in judgement about you ...

If this isn't about your ego, why do other people's ego's offend you so much? You seem to be throwing around cash right now like its paper, the biggest mistake many of us OLD TIMERS made ... but you'll never be a player joe ... and I hope your ego realizes soon there's nothing wrong with that, before you really fuck up your future.

[cj]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

Yawn......
things could not be better

Correct, but they could be worse ... and something you can count on ... they will be ;-)

[LadyMischief]

You know, I've read this whole thread and I have nothing to add to it.. it's been really funny to see how many times the old "I've been in the business longer than you" bludgeon has been hurled around, as if it still works. You know what?

There are a lot of people who have been in this business for a long time, doesn't mean they know the state of the business now. A lot have lost touch, and are only now realizing it, and coming back to re-learn the new and ever-evolving market as a whole. I don't care WHAT market or business you are talking about, be it adult or mainstream... it will NOT wait around for anyone. Staying abreast of the market is a continual concern, and it also involves a good portion of adaptability. What worked yesterday may not work today, or it may work better, or it may not work unless you look at it a new way, or use a new technology. It really doesn't matter a whole fuck of a lot HOW long you've been around, if you aren't involved, in there nitty gritty or at least in the know, it doesn't mean sweet fuck all in the big scheme of things.

Business is business, most of us around here have a good idea of what we all do, what kind of business there is to be had, it's always there. I still fail to see what the hell the point of all the pissing and bickering is about business? How shall we declare a winner? See who can beat the dead horse into the biggest mess of hamburger the most efficiently? That type of stagnant thinking certainly doesn't make anyone any money, although it might mildly amuse the ones with too much to care about making more.

Our old-timers have always been and will always be an invaluable resource in the adult webmaster community. So, though, too, will and are the newcomers, the ones with ambition, drive and motivation to succeed like they see those who were around before their time. But think about this a moment... Microsoft still isn't just DOS, is it? I'm pretty damn sure Bill Gates didn't come up with all the rest of the software all on his own because of his immense and long-dating business knowledge. He used the resources (people) at his disposal and made himself richer. Resources people, everyone is one, and everyone has them.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by cj

Correct, but they could be worse ... and something you can count on ... they will be ;-)

I miss you.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

You know, I've read this whole thread and I have nothing to add to it.. it's been really funny to see how many times the old "I've been in the business longer than you" bludgeon has been hurled around, as if it still works. You know what?

There are a lot of people who have been in this business for a long time, doesn't mean they know the state of the business now. A lot have lost touch, and are only now realizing it, and coming back to re-learn the new and ever-evolving market as a whole. I don't care WHAT market or business you are talking about, be it adult or mainstream... it will NOT wait around for anyone. Staying abreast of the market is a continual concern, and it also involves a good portion of adaptability. What worked yesterday may not work today, or it may work better, or it may not work unless you look at it a new way, or use a new technology. It really doesn't matter a whole fuck of a lot HOW long you've been around, if you aren't involved, in there nitty gritty or at least in the know, it doesn't mean sweet fuck all in the big scheme of things.

Business is business, most of us around here have a good idea of what we all do, what kind of business there is to be had, it's always there. I still fail to see what the hell the point of all the pissing and bickering is about business? How shall we declare a winner? See who can beat the dead horse into the biggest mess of hamburger the most efficiently? That type of stagnant thinking certainly doesn't make anyone any money, although it might mildly amuse the ones with too much to care about making more.

Our old-timers have always been and will always be an invaluable resource in the adult webmaster community. So, though, too, will and are the newcomers, the ones with ambition, drive and motivation to succeed like they see those who were around before their time. But think about this a moment... Microsoft still isn't just DOS, is it? I'm pretty damn sure Bill Gates didn't come up with all the rest of the software all on his own because of his immense and long-dating business knowledge. He used the resources (people) at his disposal and made himself richer. Resources people, everyone is one, and everyone has them.

Im still confused as to why there is an arguement in the first place.

BTW...since you bring it up. Bill Gates didnt write DOS. He bought it and relicensed it to IBM.

Gates was in the right place at the right time. Instead of sitting back and boasting about it and how much money he made off the one deal... he continued to make his own luck by continuing to be at the right place at the right time.

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Im still confused as to why there is an arguement in the first place.

BTW...since you bring it up. Bill Gates didnt write DOS. He bought it and relicensed it to IBM.

Gates was in the right place at the right time. Instead of sitting back and boasting about it and how much money he made off the one deal... he continued to make his own luck by continuing to be at the right place at the right time.

Ya I am confused about it too... Kind of silly, really.

And I know Bill Gates didn't write DOS, but my point was more that everyone starts somewhere, and the smarts ones use the human or whatever resources at their disposal to get further ahead. Sometimes the "luck" of being in the right place at the right time involves working to put yourself there. Opportunities don't turn into much if you don't reach for them and strive to do the best you can with them.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

Ya I am confused about it too... Kind of silly, really.

And I know Bill Gates didn't write DOS, but my point was more that everyone starts somewhere, and the smarts ones use the human or whatever resources at their disposal to get further ahead. Sometimes the "luck" of being in the right place at the right time involves working to put yourself there. Opportunities don't turn into much if you don't reach for them and strive to do the best you can with them.

Thats for damn sure. Gates and the guys that originally started Microsoft werent aftraid of work. I think in the beginnning they all pretty much lived at the office and made next to nothing.

I recommend reading one of the several biographies out there on him. There is some knowledge to be gleaned there about hard work as well as managing people as well as YOURSELF and your money.

Bill Gates once said 64K of memory is enough for anything you wanted to do in life. He was wrong.

It reminds me of how some people constantly say there are no new frontiers to innovate in this industry. Yet you see new niches and business models continue to pop up.

[cj]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

You know, I've read this whole thread and I have nothing to add to it.. it's been really funny to see how many times the old "I've been in the business longer than you" bludgeon has been hurled around, as if it still works. You know what?

There are a lot of people who have been in this business for a long time, doesn't mean they know the state of the business now. A lot have lost touch, and are only now realizing it, and coming back to re-learn the new and ever-evolving market as a whole. I don't care WHAT market or business you are talking about, be it adult or mainstream... it will NOT wait around for anyone. Staying abreast of the market is a continual concern, and it also involves a good portion of adaptability. What worked yesterday may not work today, or it may work better, or it may not work unless you look at it a new way, or use a new technology. It really doesn't matter a whole fuck of a lot HOW long you've been around, if you aren't involved, in there nitty gritty or at least in the know, it doesn't mean sweet fuck all in the big scheme of things.

Business is business, most of us around here have a good idea of what we all do, what kind of business there is to be had, it's always there. I still fail to see what the hell the point of all the pissing and bickering is about business? How shall we declare a winner? See who can beat the dead horse into the biggest mess of hamburger the most efficiently? That type of stagnant thinking certainly doesn't make anyone any money, although it might mildly amuse the ones with too much to care about making more.

Our old-timers have always been and will always be an invaluable resource in the adult webmaster community. So, though, too, will and are the newcomers, the ones with ambition, drive and motivation to succeed like they see those who were around before their time. But think about this a moment... Microsoft still isn't just DOS, is it? I'm pretty damn sure Bill Gates didn't come up with all the rest of the software all on his own because of his immense and long-dating business knowledge. He used the resources (people) at his disposal and made himself richer. Resources people, everyone is one, and everyone has them.

great post

[cj]

Originally Posted by Peaches

I miss you.

Not long till you come to visit! Summer our time wasn't it?! ;-)

I'm coming back ... slowly!!

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by cj

Not long till you come to visit! Summer our time wasn't it?! ;-)

I'm coming back ... slowly!!

I'm saving up my FF points - I think I need about 5 more trips then I'm on my waaaaaay!

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Peaches

I'm saving up my FF points - I think I need about 5 more trips then I'm on my waaaaaay!

Looks like you lost your Oprano points.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Looks like you lost your Oprano points.

damned fWo, nothing sacred.

[carina]

maybe we can learn some cool tricks from the old timer in the biz.

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Thats for damn sure. Gates and the guys that originally started Microsoft werent aftraid of work. I think in the beginnning they all pretty much lived at the office and made next to nothing.

I recommend reading one of the several biographies out there on him. There is some knowledge to be gleaned there about hard work as well as managing people as well as YOURSELF and your money.

Bill Gates once said 64K of memory is enough for anything you wanted to do in life. He was wrong.

It reminds me of how some people constantly say there are no new frontiers to innovate in this industry. Yet you see new niches and business models continue to pop up.

All markets stagnate at times... all markets get oversaturated, eventally, as with any product/marketplace where people realize there's the capability of making money. It doesn't mean the market is no longer useful, it simply means you have to be more effective in placing your product/brand more in the view of the consumer than the competition does, and to make it more appealing. Like with any other product, we are still, have always been, and will still be selling essentially the same product. Just wrapped in different packages. And like with ALL markets there are always new, better, more innovative ways to market a brand/product, and there are people who have to come up with them. There are a ton of incredibly innovative people in this business, and they are the ones you don't see making noise, but making money...

If you choose to surrender, of course it will beat you. You can't win the fight if you throw up your hands like it's a lost cause before you even get your edge. Personally, I believe adult has been stagnant for a while, but the light on the horizon are new technologies that have the potential to take the market to an entirely new level. I truly believe we are going to see a very rapid growth process that's going to balloon into a new internet porn "gold rush" again for those who are smart enough, innovative enough, and motivated enough to put themselves in the right place at the right time. The market is far from dead... evolving on a stellar level. To those who choose not to look below the surface, or look at new possibilities, or think they've already achieved everything that's possible, they will be left in the dust wondering what happened.

Not that I'm overly worried about those people, mind you. They're already rich, they don't have to be hungry for the success anymore, they can simply enjoy the fruits of their own labors and take the spare time to piss on some boards

[carina]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

All markets stagnate at times... all markets get oversaturated, eventally, as with any product/marketplace where people realize there's the capability of making money. It doesn't mean the market is no longer useful, it simply means you have to be more effective in placing your product/brand more in the view of the consumer than the competition does, and to make it more appealing. Like with any other product, we are still, have always been, and will still be selling essentially the same product. Just wrapped in different packages. And like with ALL markets there are always new, better, more innovative ways to market a brand/product, and there are people who have to come up with them. There are a ton of incredibly innovative people in this business, and they are the ones you don't see making noise, but making money...

If you choose to surrender, of course it will beat you. You can't win the fight if you throw up your hands like it's a lost cause before you even get your edge. Personally, I believe adult has been stagnant for a while, but the light on the horizon are new technologies that have the potential to take the market to an entirely new level. I truly believe we are going to see a very rapid growth process that's going to balloon into a new internet porn "gold rush" again for those who are smart enough, innovative enough, and motivated enough to put themselves in the right place at the right time. The market is far from dead... evolving on a stellar level. To those who choose not to look below the surface, or look at new possibilities, or think they've already achieved everything that's possible, they will be left in the dust wondering what happened.

Not that I'm overly worried about those people, mind you. They're already rich, they don't have to be hungry for the success anymore, they can simply enjoy the fruits of their own labors and take the spare time to piss on some boards

word of wisdom from a veteran in the biz

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Looks like you lost your Oprano points.

DAMMIT! Who's running this place???!! I need to send a memo.

(and make the damn smilies clickable so my posts will be cute!!)

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Peaches

DAMMIT! Who's running this place???!! I need to send a memo.

(and make the damn smilies clickable so my posts will be cute!!)

Logo says FWO

[helix]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Logo says FWO

I saw that...

[melody]

*That's* what Jace meant about "no old-timers". I always use that term -- I've been away from Oprano for a number of months. I only heard about the grand schism.

One of the most useful things anyone in this business ever told me is, everyone is always a newbie. The business morphs so often, no one can claim veteran status in any real way -- in the words of Heraclitus (used to work with Xpics), all is flux. That said, I wouldn't have made a dime without Nick and Serge and a few of the other folk around here. They helped me even when I didn't realize they were helping me (kinda like a Zen Master).

And if I'd listened to them, I wouldn't have had my ex-business partner steal half my money either, so a word to the wise ... listen to the words of the wise.

And I wanna be gonzo when I grow up.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by melody

And I wanna be gonzo when I grow up.

Its no fun.

[domtheboy]

Originally Posted by melody

They helped me even when I didn't realize they were helping me (kinda like a Zen Master).

Yep, that's why I miss them too. I can take a bit of piss coming my way if I get to learn something along the way.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by melody

And I wanna be gonzo when I grow up.

Up or out?

(it had to be said )

[melody]

>Up or out

I've already grown out, believe me. I've also grown up (thanks to being screwed over mightily in this business). Some people never will, however. Both in the good way and the bad way.