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Old 04-19-2005   #1
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The boards are always roaring wih talk of shaving. Personally, I think there's a lot of shaving going on, but as the name implies... it's not "slicing" .... it's "shaving". And while it is cheating, I think that on a percentage basis it's not the highest thing on the list for webmasters to be worrying about. It's not like the "good old days" where sites would just turn the counter off for half a day or so (gee...... who ever did that?). It's a little cheat that shoudln't even be noticable (if anyone can notice YOU'RE SHAVING TOO HARD ). But there are LOTS of other things which are going on all over the place which can do some real damage.

One example is when you see an email box on the page where you send traffic to so that the site can "steal" your email list.

So, my question is: what ways to cheat do you guys see being used out there, which are the most prevalent, and which one's do you think actually are the most offensive and/or do the most damage?
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Old 04-19-2005   #2
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video@Apr 19 2005, 10:36 PM
It's a little cheat that shoudln't even be noticable (if anyone can notice YOU'RE SHAVING TOO HARD ).
Well actually, if you don't notice them shaving then they should be turning it up (happiluy stolen from Nick)


In all seriousness, I don't know of cheaters that hurt the industry as much as scumsucking cockholsters who drop toolbars and shit on folks computers or the folks running big credit card fraud stuff.

That shit hurts us more than any of the cheats going on within the industry between webmasters and sponsors.

If a sponsor cheats a webmaster, the webmaster stops sending traffic. If the webmaster cheats the sponsor the sponsor stops sending checks. Pretty self correcting in a lot of ways actually.
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Old 04-20-2005   #3
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You cant shave with NATS.
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Old 04-20-2005   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Apr 19 2005, 08:15 PM
You cant shave with NATS.
LOL...


Anything can be shaved.

Never let it see nats
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Old 04-20-2005   #5
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free hosted galleries

;-)
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Old 04-20-2005   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by cj@Apr 20 2005, 07:20 AM
free hosted galleries

;-)
Oh yes

Click your links to the sponsor hosted galleries a few times and strange how every now and again your ref code seems to drop off h34r:
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Old 04-20-2005   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video@Apr 19 2005, 10:36 PM
One example is when you see an email box on the page where you send traffic to so that the site can "steal" your email list.

Example please

and how would that be "stealing" your email list
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Old 04-20-2005   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick+Apr 20 2005, 01:38 AM-->
QUOTE (Vick @ Apr 20 2005, 01:38 AM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by gonzo+Apr 20 2005, 07:50 AM-->
QUOTE (gonzo @ Apr 20 2005, 07:50 AM)
Quote:
Originally posted by Vick@Apr 20 2005, 01:38 AM
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Old 04-20-2005   #10
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the email panel should NOT be a leak, the surfer doesn't have to leave the page to submit or can be taken to small confirm email addy page

Why the fuck would you want potential revenue to leave (unless you're bringing them back around after a confirm minus the ref code)

Also there is the cookie tracking shave (which is what I and every CBill proggy does)
Surfer is cookied on the redirect (which can work in favor of the affiliate because that cookie stays on through exits and can count for sales at other sites owned by the same proggy)

Stats have told me over the years that less than 10% of surfers have cookies turned off

and that's why Cloud 9 Cash pays 60% (or more if you can send significant GOOD joins) and pays the processing fees
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Old 04-20-2005   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick@Apr 20 2005, 06:40 AM
the email panel should NOT be a leak, the surfer doesn't have to leave the page to submit or can be taken to small confirm email addy page
Yes, but most of the email boxes offer 'free porn' to your email....well, hmm...let me weigh that.....'free porn' to my email.....or $29.99 on my cc......hmmmmmmmmmmm

h34r:
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Old 04-20-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick@Apr 20 2005, 09:40 AM
the email panel should NOT be a leak, the surfer doesn't have to leave the page to submit or can be taken to small confirm email addy page
So, let's say you send 10,000 uniques to someone, and get no signups, but 10% leave their email addy. You get $0, and they get 1,000 new email addys.

You're ok with that?
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Old 04-20-2005   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by gonzo@Apr 20 2005, 01:50 AM

I think thats called a "leak" by some people but not a shave....
Maybe I should have been clearer in my initial post:

My point is that while there's lots of talk about shaving, I think there's lot's of other stuff going on to worry about, probably more than "classic shaving".
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Old 04-20-2005   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video+Apr 20 2005, 07:46 PM-->
QUOTE (Urban Legends Video @ Apr 20 2005, 07:46 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video+Apr 20 2005, 01:46 PM-->
QUOTE (Urban Legends Video @ Apr 20 2005, 01:46 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by gigi+Apr 20 2005, 12:50 PM-->
QUOTE (gigi @ Apr 20 2005, 12:50 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #17
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and if you're going 0 for 10,000 you need to change the proggys you are using and th eemail collections is not a real concern

either it's shit traffic, a really bad match (gay traffic to a hardcore site or whatever) or something is really screwed

any way, do you stick with an 0 for 10,000 situation?
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Old 04-20-2005   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by SykkBoy+Apr 20 2005, 02:06 PM-->
QUOTE (SykkBoy @ Apr 20 2005, 02:06 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video@Apr 20 2005, 01:46 PM
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Old 04-20-2005   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick+Apr 20 2005, 08:23 PM-->
QUOTE (Vick @ Apr 20 2005, 08:23 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by gigi@Apr 20 2005, 12:50 PM
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Old 04-20-2005   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick@Apr 20 2005, 02:23 PM

Let me take it one step further

What if the emails collected from that panel are mailed to and have affiliates sites in them?
But that's the point I'm trying to make:

If they take your traffic, collect the emails of the surfers you are sending them, and then mail them with offers which you don't get part of the take from, how is that not cheating you? Saying you don't care if someone collects the emails of the surfers you send is almost ( I said ALMOST) like saying you're willing to share your email list for free.

(and the 0 for 10,000 was just to make the illustration easy, pick any numbers you want, it still ends up as money out of your pocket).
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Old 04-20-2005   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video+Apr 20 2005, 08:28 PM-->
QUOTE (Urban Legends Video @ Apr 20 2005, 08:28 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrGuile@Apr 20 2005, 02:26 PM
All the sponsors energy should be on getting a sale/signup
for who?

We know the shave has to exist, anyone who thinks different is fooling themselves

With smoke and mirror payouts, that's what happens
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Old 04-20-2005   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trev@Apr 20 2005, 02:32 PM

The surfer hits your site before your sponsors, so it's down to you to get the email addy first!

If you don't then you can't whine when your sponsor does!
You're acting as if an email address is a discrete item where once someone "gets it", it belongs to them and them only. That's just not the case. If you get the email address before your sponsor, and then they get it, it still dilutes the value of that address. And especially so if the sponsor is, or sells to anyone who, is a big email program. So it's not a matter of "you get it first", it's a matter of your property being devalued - that property being your client list; and if you don't understand the value of a client list in ANY business, there's nothing I'm going to be able to write here which is going to explain it to you. If you don't think that this is valuable, then please be so kind as to send me your list. I'll give you a dollar for it.
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Old 04-20-2005   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrGuile+Apr 20 2005, 02:26 PM-->
QUOTE (DrGuile @ Apr 20 2005, 02:26 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Apr 20 2005, 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video@Apr 20 2005, 01:46 PM
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Old 04-20-2005   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video+Apr 20 2005, 02:48 PM-->
QUOTE (Urban Legends Video @ Apr 20 2005, 02:48 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by SykkBoy+Apr 20 2005, 02:51 PM-->
QUOTE (SykkBoy @ Apr 20 2005, 02:51 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video@Apr 20 2005, 02:48 PM
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Old 04-20-2005   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video+Apr 20 2005, 08:48 PM-->
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Old 04-20-2005   #28
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FREE THE EMAILS!





oh shit Gonzo gimmick infringement
If ya Smellllllllllllllllll

What the .......

...... Gonzo is cooking
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Old 04-20-2005   #29
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Just become your own sponsor and you don't have to worry about what a sponsor does or doesn't do on their site.
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Old 04-20-2005   #30
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All I say is If a site is not focused on making a sale for you, why send traffic?

That's really all it boils down too...

And btw, I see a few of the people who were giving Red a hard time about their horrible paysites with the traffic links arguing the other way in this thread... funny...
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Old 04-20-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrGuile@Apr 20 2005, 03:42 PM
All I say is If a site is not focused on making a sale for you, why send traffic?

That's really all it boils down too...

With you there 100%

But there has got to be profit or the proggy will obviously die. The proggy dies - no pay. The proggy is in business to make money for it's self and to do that6 affiliates must make $
all this is very simple
But the proggy $ comes first, someone may want to tell you different but I'd be wary if that's what someone was trying to sell me

and this thread started about shaves (no one has said anything about the cookie shave but me) and has worked it's way around to email collection

Hmmmmmm
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Old 04-20-2005   #32
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p.s. and it's not cheating

It's covering a smoke and mirrors payout that is artificially inflated to attract more affiliates than the next program

Some affiliates want everything. Free this, that, a $40 payout on a free trial and the other and then no shave.
ah ha ha ha ha ha ha

Bottom line is if the wire/check at the end of the week/month or if the prepay is good and you can cover the joins where do you get the most $ for the least work/stress/bullshit
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Old 04-20-2005   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick@Apr 20 2005, 09:53 PM
p.s. and it's not cheating

It's covering a smoke and mirrors payout that is artificially inflated to attract more affiliates than the next program

Some affiliates want everything. Free this, that, a $40 payout on a free trial and the other and then no shave.
ah ha ha ha ha ha ha

Bottom line is if the wire/check at the end of the week/month or if the prepay is good and you can cover the joins where do you get the most $ for the least work/stress/bullshit



Thats the skinny
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Old 04-20-2005   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick+Apr 20 2005, 03:45 PM-->
QUOTE (Vick @ Apr 20 2005, 03:45 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #35
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DrGuile - if you're referring to your Private Feeds program (which I believe is a quality product, I've seen the inside some of the feeds and such)
we're sort of comparing apples to oranges

Private Feeds is a % of the gross sale payout, it benefits you to sell everyone as much as you possibly can to keep the affiliates sending more traffic
Your payout structure is sound and your business model is such that you don't need to shave.


Look at the few $40 (or whatever) per free trial join membership sites left, thats a tight competitive market with ever shrinking margins.

You have to go a long way to keep that $40 per payout profitable

Norelco anyone
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Old 04-20-2005   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Apr 20 2005, 02:51 PM

so, if you get your traffic from Green Guy, should you share the revenues with him? because it's HIS surfer he's sending to YOU right?
Are you talking about traffic which you bought and paid for?
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Old 04-20-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video+Apr 20 2005, 10:18 PM-->
QUOTE (Urban Legends Video @ Apr 20 2005, 10:18 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #38
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From Blazing Saddles

"Either I'm really , really good or these guys are so dumb"

;-)))


I've shaved a guy 90% percent and he thanked me!!!
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Old 04-20-2005   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Apr 20 2005, 04:21 PM
From Blazing Saddles

"Either I'm really , really good or these guys are so dumb"

;-)))


I've shaved a guy 90% percent and he thanked me!!!
Fucker
You kissed and told

and next time damn it I want to be waxed, not shaved!
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Old 04-20-2005   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick@Apr 20 2005, 04:15 PM
DrGuile - if you're referring to your Private Feeds program (which I believe is a quality product, I've seen the inside some of the feeds and such)
we're sort of comparing apples to oranges

Private Feeds is a % of the gross sale payout, it benefits you to sell everyone as much as you possibly can to keep the affiliates sending more traffic
Your payout structure is sound and your business model is such that you don't need to shave.


Look at the few $40 (or whatever) per free trial join membership sites left, thats a tight competitive market with ever shrinking margins.

You have to go a long way to keep that $40 per payout profitable

Norelco anyone
Right, I agree 100%, which is why you should send your traffic to programs that have a sound business model.

It just makes sense.

now, ask me for our signup link
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Old 04-20-2005   #41
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Programs I made fortunes with all had GREAT business models...

1.) Serge
2.) High Society
3.) Paris Hilton

All really sound business models , and there business model was this..

"Our check will be bigger for exactly the same traffic"

Veterans and Pros count money , newbies fret over clicks.
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Old 04-20-2005   #42
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Quote:
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QUOTE (DrGuile @ Apr 20 2005, 10:34 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Apr 20 2005, 04:37 PM
Programs I made fortunes with all had GREAT business models...

1.) Serge
2.) High Society
3.) Paris Hilton

All really sound business models , and there business model was this..

"Our check will be bigger for exactly the same traffic"

Veterans and Pros count money , newbies fret over clicks.
Not quite, it was a sound business model because there was no competition, and they werent going to disapear since they were hugely profitable from cheating everyone...


....man... where was I then??


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Old 04-20-2005   #44
Nickatilynx
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrGuile@Apr 20 2005, 01:46 PM



....man... where was I then??


Now you mention it , my money is on you being in one of the following places:

a.) High school
b.) Prison
c.) France
d.) Gay bar
e.) Wales
f.) pissing me off on another board in a different name.

;-))))

"""""because there was no competition, and they werent going to disapear since they were hugely profitable from cheating everyone..."""""

What ? You REALLY think none of those are left?
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Old 04-20-2005   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Apr 20 2005, 05:07 PM

a.) High school
b.) Prison
c.) France
d.) Gay bar
e.) Wales
f.) pissing me off on another board in a different name.

;-))))
Probably college for most of it...



Ever heard the Electric Six song "Gay Bar"?

http://www.drguile.com/temp/gaybar.avi

Im sure its right up your alley...
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Old 04-20-2005   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trev@Apr 20 2005, 04:20 PM

No it's free when you submit!
So, in other words, it's NOT traffic where he has any expectations of any remuneration of any kind in return? So it's "shave proof" anyway? (i.e. you can't steal part of what's 100% yours anyway?).
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Old 04-20-2005   #47
gigi
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trev@Apr 20 2005, 11:32 AM
The surfer hits your site before your sponsors, so it's down to you to get the email addy first!

If you don't then you can't whine when your sponsor does!
It has nothing to do with who gets the email addy first.....that hit was sent to purchase a membership. If there is a 'free' email offer on the page it lowers the chances of my surfer buying a membership.

If I wanted to collect emails off my traffic, I could do that myself.....but, I've never been into mailing, and choose to send my traffic to sponsors and sell memberships.

I'm not saying I never send traffic to sponsors who use mail boxes....I'm just saying that logically, it will lower my chances for a sign up.
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Old 04-20-2005   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Legends Video+Apr 20 2005, 11:15 PM-->
QUOTE (Urban Legends Video @ Apr 20 2005, 11:15 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #49
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Quote:


Originally posted by gigi+Apr 20 2005, 11:39 PM-->
QUOTE (gigi @ Apr 20 2005, 11:39 PM)
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Old 04-20-2005   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Apr 20 2005, 04:37 PM
Programs I made fortunes with all had GREAT business models...

1.) Serge
2.) High Society
3.) Paris Hilton

All really sound business models , and there business model was this..

"Our check will be bigger for exactly the same traffic"

Veterans and Pros count money , newbies fret over clicks.
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