The boards are always roaring wih talk of shaving. Personally, I think there's a lot of shaving going on, but as the name implies... it's not "slicing" .... it's "shaving". And while it is cheating, I think that on a percentage basis it's not the highest thing on the list for webmasters to be worrying about. It's not like the "good old days" where sites would just turn the counter off for half a day or so (gee...... who ever did that?). It's a little cheat that shoudln't even be noticable (if anyone can notice YOU'RE SHAVING TOO HARD ;) ). But there are LOTS of other things which are going on all over the place which can do some real damage.

One example is when you see an email box on the page where you send traffic to so that the site can "steal" your email list.

So, my question is: what ways to cheat do you guys see being used out there, which are the most prevalent, and which one's do you think actually are the most offensive and/or do the most damage?

Well actually, if you don't notice them shaving then they should be turning it up :okthumb: (happiluy stolen from Nick)


In all seriousness, I don't know of cheaters that hurt the industry as much as scumsucking cockholsters who drop toolbars and shit on folks computers or the folks running big credit card fraud stuff.

That shit hurts us more than any of the cheats going on within the industry between webmasters and sponsors.

If a sponsor cheats a webmaster, the webmaster stops sending traffic. If the webmaster cheats the sponsor the sponsor stops sending checks. Pretty self correcting in a lot of ways actually.

You cant shave with NATS.

LOL...


Anything can be shaved.

Never let it see nats :)

free hosted galleries

;-)

Oh yes :okthumb:

Click your links to the sponsor hosted galleries a few times and strange how every now and again your ref code seems to drop off :ph34r:

Example please

and how would that be "stealing" your email list

Example please

and how would that be "stealing" your email list [/b][/quote]
I think thats called a "leak" by some people but not a shave....

Heres some shaves you might want to think about.

1. The checks in the mail shave.... program swears they sent you a check but will gladly reissue another one cuz they never sent it the first place....can buy em at least another month. Also called an Extended Float.

2. The disapperaring ref code shave ... aforementioned with FHG where that damn designer for got to code the stuff right and it make em look like they are stealing from you. [cuz they are]

3. The reverse shave ... good for one bad for another where someone advertises a program on a site like for instance the GBU... but they publish the ref code. Program inflates the publishers numbers while skimming from its other affiliates.

These are just 3 that I can think of at 3am. Im sure several of you can add in more to the thread.

Keep your sponsors honest!

I think thats called a "leak" by some people but not a shave....

Heres some shaves you might want to think about.

1. The checks in the mail shave.... program swears they sent you a check but will gladly reissue another one cuz they never sent it the first place....can buy em at least another month. Also called an Extended Float.

2. The disapperaring ref code shave ... aforementioned with FHG where that damn designer for got to code the stuff right and it make em look like they are stealing from you. [cuz they are]

3. The reverse shave ... good for one bad for another where someone advertises a program on a site like for instance the GBU... but they publish the ref code. Program inflates the publishers numbers while skimming from its other affiliates.

These are just 3 that I can think of at 3am. Im sure several of you can add in more to the thread.

Keep your sponsors honest! [/b][/quote]
The ref code is a good one to watch for thoughout any sponsors site, from start page to join page to exit consoles!

the email panel should NOT be a leak, the surfer doesn't have to leave the page to submit or can be taken to small confirm email addy page

Why the fuck would you want potential revenue to leave (unless you're bringing them back around after a confirm minus the ref code)

Also there is the cookie tracking shave (which is what I and every CBill proggy does)
Surfer is cookied on the redirect (which can work in favor of the affiliate because that cookie stays on through exits and can count for sales at other sites owned by the same proggy)

Stats have told me over the years that less than 10% of surfers have cookies turned off

and that's why Cloud 9 Cash pays 60% (or more if you can send significant GOOD joins) and pays the processing fees

Yes, but most of the email boxes offer 'free porn' to your email....well, hmm...let me weigh that.....'free porn' to my email.....or $29.99 on my cc......hmmmmmmmmmmm

:ph34r:

So, let's say you send 10,000 uniques to someone, and get no signups, but 10% leave their email addy. You get $0, and they get 1,000 new email addys.

You're ok with that?

Maybe I should have been clearer in my initial post:

My point is that while there's lots of talk about shaving, I think there's lot's of other stuff going on to worry about, probably more than "classic shaving".

So, let's say you send 10,000 uniques to someone, and get no signups, but 10% leave their email addy. You get $0, and they get 1,000 new email addys.

You're ok with that?[/b][/quote]
I'm fine with it, because if you didn't pull their email addy out of them on your site then thats your fault.

So, let's say you send 10,000 uniques to someone, and get no signups, but 10% leave their email addy. You get $0, and they get 1,000 new email addys.

You're ok with that? [/b][/quote]
sure
because I know when I do send signups, they are (supposed to be) paying me $30-35 for that trial signup...there has to be a way for a sponsor to be profitable...

why is it so evil for the sponsor to make a fucking profit?

Yes, but most of the email boxes offer 'free porn' to your email....well, hmm...let me weigh that.....'free porn' to my email.....or $29.99 on my cc......hmmmmmmmmmmm

:ph34r: [/b][/quote]
Let me take it one step further

What if the emails collected from that panel are mailed to and have affiliates sites in them?


and I try never to use the term "Free Porn"

and if you're going 0 for 10,000 you need to change the proggys you are using and th eemail collections is not a real concern

either it's shit traffic, a really bad match (gay traffic to a hardcore site or whatever) or something is really screwed

any way, do you stick with an 0 for 10,000 situation?

sure
because I know when I do send signups, they are (supposed to be) paying me $30-35 for that trial signup...there has to be a way for a sponsor to be profitable...

why is it so evil for the sponsor to make a fucking profit? [/b][/quote]
I disagree.

its more profitable for a sponsor to get the surfers emails and NOT have him signup on your webmaster ID.

Or its more profitable if he sends him on that untracked console than if he signs up... etc...

No, I do not think its normal. All the sponsors energy should be on getting a sale/signup. If its not, than I dont want to send traffic.

If they collect emails on signups, or have upsells in the members area to offset the cost of the signup, that's fine. But tactics that earns them money for NOT selling, no, I dont go for that one bit.

Let me take it one step further

What if the emails collected from that panel are mailed to and have affiliates sites in them?


and I try never to use the term "Free Porn" [/b][/quote]
Well I'm affraid I use this:

http://www.deepanal.net/banners/email/box1/email1.jpghttp://www.deepanal.net/banners/email/box1/email2.jpghttp://www.deepanal.net/banners/email/box1/email3.jpg
http://www.deepanal.net/banners/email/box1/email4.jpghttp://www.deepanal.net/banners/email/box1/email5.jpghttp://www.deepanal.net/banners/email/box1/email6.jpg

I stick to what I offer and send free pics, amongst other things :redance:

But that's the point I'm trying to make:

If they take your traffic, collect the emails of the surfers you are sending them, and then mail them with offers which you don't get part of the take from, how is that not cheating you? Saying you don't care if someone collects the emails of the surfers you send is almost ( I said ALMOST) like saying you're willing to share your email list for free.

(and the 0 for 10,000 was just to make the illustration easy, pick any numbers you want, it still ends up as money out of your pocket).

But that's the point I'm trying to make:

If they take your traffic, collect the emails of the surfers you are sending them, and then mail them with offers which you don't get part of the take from, how is that not cheating you? Saying you don't care if someone collects the emails of the surfers you send is almost ( I said ALMOST) like saying you're willing to share your email list for free.

(and the 0 for 10,000 was just to make the illustration easy, pick any numbers you want, it still ends up as money out of your pocket). [/b][/quote]
The surfer hits your site before your sponsors, so it's down to you to get the email addy first!

If you don't then you can't whine when your sponsor does!

for who? :biglaugh: :awinky:

We know the shave has to exist, anyone who thinks different is fooling themselves

With smoke and mirror payouts, that's what happens

You're acting as if an email address is a discrete item where once someone "gets it", it belongs to them and them only. That's just not the case. If you get the email address before your sponsor, and then they get it, it still dilutes the value of that address. And especially so if the sponsor is, or sells to anyone who, is a big email program. So it's not a matter of "you get it first", it's a matter of your property being devalued - that property being your client list; and if you don't understand the value of a client list in ANY business, there's nothing I'm going to be able to write here which is going to explain it to you. If you don't think that this is valuable, then please be so kind as to send me your list. I'll give you a dollar for it.

I disagree.

its more profitable for a sponsor to get the surfers emails and NOT have him signup on your webmaster ID.

Or its more profitable if he sends him on that untracked console than if he signs up... etc...

No, I do not think its normal. All the sponsors energy should be on getting a sale/signup. If its not, than I dont want to send traffic.

If they collect emails on signups, or have upsells in the members area to offset the cost of the signup, that's fine. But tactics that earns them money for NOT selling, no, I dont go for that one bit. [/b][/quote]
well, a member just isn't worth what they used to be

let's see:
most sponsors provide free content, free hosting, free hosting galleries, all kinds of advertising promos, paying on exits, paying the same money (theoritically ;-)) for a member that isn't worth as much and an email collection form on a tour is just too much?

this is why we run a revshare program with EGC (with a few exceptions) an affiliate is getting what the surfer is worth

we're also working on a way to share upsell revenues with affiliates as well...but most will still run to the guy offering to pay $35-40 per signup and probably "losing" a couple sales here and there......

You're acting as if an email address is a discrete item where once someone "gets it", it belongs to them and them only. That's just not the case. If you get the email address before your sponsor, and then they get it, it still dilutes the value of that address. And especially so if the sponsor is, or sells to anyone who, is a big email program. So it's not a matter of "you get it first", it's a matter of your property being devalued - that property being your client list; and if you don't understand the value of a client list in ANY business, there's nothing I'm going to be able to write here which is going to explain it to you. If you don't think that this is valuable, then please be so kind as to send me your list. I'll give you a dollar for it. [/b][/quote]
so, if you get your traffic from Green Guy, should you share the revenues with him? because it's HIS surfer he's sending to YOU right?

so, if you get your traffic from Green Guy, should you share the revenues with him? because it's HIS surfer he's sending to YOU right? [/b][/quote]
This thread is amusing on several levels.

You're acting as if an email address is a discrete item where once someone "gets it", it belongs to them and them only. That's just not the case. If you get the email address before your sponsor, and then they get it, it still dilutes the value of that address. And especially so if the sponsor is, or sells to anyone who, is a big email program. So it's not a matter of "you get it first", it's a matter of your property being devalued - that property being your client list; and if you don't understand the value of a client list in ANY business, there's nothing I'm going to be able to write here which is going to explain it to you. If you don't think that this is valuable, then please be so kind as to send me your list. I'll give you a dollar for it. [/b][/quote]
I'm not saying it's a discrete item I'm saying that it's down to you to make/get the most from your traffic. If you don't like that your sponsor does it then drop them.

I can take a hit from my sponsor getting an email address that I already have tried to get. I also know that the chances are if the surfer didn't sign-up at the site it wasn't down to him/her giving an email address away.



Edit in bold

FREE THE EMAILS!





oh shit Gonzo gimmick infringement
If ya Smellllllllllllllllll

What the .......

...... Gonzo is cooking

Just become your own sponsor and you don't have to worry about what a sponsor does or doesn't do on their site.

All I say is If a site is not focused on making a sale for you, why send traffic?

That's really all it boils down too...

And btw, I see a few of the people who were giving Red a hard time about their horrible paysites with the traffic links arguing the other way in this thread... funny...

With you there 100%

But there has got to be profit or the proggy will obviously die. The proggy dies - no pay. The proggy is in business to make money for it's self and to do that6 affiliates must make $
all this is very simple
But the proggy $ comes first, someone may want to tell you different but I'd be wary if that's what someone was trying to sell me

and this thread started about shaves (no one has said anything about the cookie shave but me) and has worked it's way around to email collection

Hmmmmmm

p.s. and it's not cheating

It's covering a smoke and mirrors payout that is artificially inflated to attract more affiliates than the next program

Some affiliates want everything. Free this, that, a $40 payout on a free trial and the other and then no shave.
ah ha ha ha ha ha ha

Bottom line is if the wire/check at the end of the week/month or if the prepay is good and you can cover the joins where do you get the most $ for the least work/stress/bullshit

:okthumb:


Thats the skinny :wnw:

With you there 100%

But there has got to be profit or the proggy will obviously die. The proggy dies - no pay. The proggy is in business to make money for it's self and to do that6 affiliates must make $
all this is very simple
But the proggy $ comes first, someone may want to tell you different but I'd be wary if that's what someone was trying to sell me

and this thread started about shaves (no one has said anything about the cookie shave but me) and has worked it's way around to email collection

Hmmmmmm [/b][/quote]
Of course, proggies arent charities...

But if I feel the effort is put more on how to steal my traffic than on making a profit by offering a great product... wtf?

Now, some may feel Im being "innocent and delusional" in hoping that a program would try to make its money with its actual product instead of finding 1001 ways to redirect affiliate traffic... but eh, what can I tell you, we're honest... and profitable.

DrGuile - if you're referring to your Private Feeds program (which I believe is a quality product, I've seen the inside some of the feeds and such)
we're sort of comparing apples to oranges

Private Feeds is a % of the gross sale payout, it benefits you to sell everyone as much as you possibly can to keep the affiliates sending more traffic
Your payout structure is sound and your business model is such that you don't need to shave.


Look at the few $40 (or whatever) per free trial join membership sites left, thats a tight competitive market with ever shrinking margins.

You have to go a long way to keep that $40 per payout profitable

Norelco anyone

Are you talking about traffic which you bought and paid for?

Are you talking about traffic which you bought and paid for? [/b][/quote]
No it's free when you submit!

From Blazing Saddles

"Either I'm really , really good or these guys are so dumb"

;-)))


I've shaved a guy 90% percent and he thanked me!!! :)

Fucker
You kissed and told

and next time damn it I want to be waxed, not shaved!

Right, I agree 100%, which is why you should send your traffic to programs that have a sound business model.

It just makes sense.

now, ask me for our signup link :)

Programs I made fortunes with all had GREAT business models...

1.) Serge
2.) High Society
3.) Paris Hilton

All really sound business models , and there business model was this..

"Our check will be bigger for exactly the same traffic"

Veterans and Pros count money , newbies fret over clicks.

Right, I agree 100%, which is why you should send your traffic to programs that have a sound business model.

It just makes sense.

now, ask me for our signup link :) [/b][/quote]
and we got there :)

Not quite, it was a sound business model because there was no competition, and they werent going to disapear since they were hugely profitable from cheating everyone...


....man... where was I then??


:biglaugh:

Now you mention it , my money is on you being in one of the following places:

a.) High school
b.) Prison
c.) France
d.) Gay bar
e.) Wales
f.) pissing me off on another board in a different name.

;-))))

"""""because there was no competition, and they werent going to disapear since they were hugely profitable from cheating everyone..."""""

What ? You REALLY think none of those are left?

Probably college for most of it...



Ever heard the Electric Six song "Gay Bar"?

http://www.drguile.com/temp/gaybar.avi

Im sure its right up your alley...

So, in other words, it's NOT traffic where he has any expectations of any remuneration of any kind in return? So it's "shave proof" anyway? (i.e. you can't steal part of what's 100% yours anyway?).

It has nothing to do with who gets the email addy first.....that hit was sent to purchase a membership. If there is a 'free' email offer on the page it lowers the chances of my surfer buying a membership.

If I wanted to collect emails off my traffic, I could do that myself.....but, I've never been into mailing, and choose to send my traffic to sponsors and sell memberships.

I'm not saying I never send traffic to sponsors who use mail boxes....I'm just saying that logically, it will lower my chances for a sign up.

So, in other words, it's NOT traffic where he has any expectations of any remuneration of any kind in return? So it's "shave proof" anyway? (i.e. you can't steal part of what's 100% yours anyway?). [/b][/quote]
It's a trade off!

I would go deeper but you don't get it and I want to answer gigi!


:huh:

It has nothing to do with who gets the email addy first.....that hit was sent to purchase a membership. If there is a 'free' email offer on the page it lowers the chances of my surfer buying a membership.

If I wanted to collect emails off my traffic, I could do that myself.....but, I've never been into mailing, and choose to send my traffic to sponsors and sell memberships.

I'm not saying I never send traffic to sponsors who use mail boxes....I'm just saying that logically, it will lower my chances for a sign up. [/b][/quote]
Any hit that is sent, is sent in the hopes of a purchase!

Strip what you can then fingers crossed that you've pushed the sale and the paysite hits all the right buttons!


Email boxes, do not a hard-on soften!

:pearl: