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Originally posted by LadyMischief@Aug 12 2004, 08:45 AM TGP, TGP Submitting etc is not a simple or quick process.. it's time-consuming, intensive, and for those who actually make money, requires thought and planning. The last person someone promoting a program wants to do is worry that their partner accounts are going to start recieiving cease and desist orders and their accounts are getting shut down because someone was unimpressed with a "skim" or traffic trade. The fact of the matter is, if a tgp is to grow, they need an infusion of traffic..and since nothing in life is free, it only makes sense that if you are getting traffic, you will be required to send traffic in return. This system ensure the continue productivity of tgps, and hence to the galleries listed there. Without clicks, no gallery will produce. Programs that make it more trouble than it's worth to submit galleries on their behalf simply won't be used. Why? Because there are 50 other programs that are willing to accept those 5 people who didn't get through to the gallery, maybe pushed the back button and had a 5 second inconvenience and actually looked at the gallery and clicked through to the site. TGP traffic can be an extremely valuable resource, however as soon as tgp owners are restricted and forced to comprimise the potential for c and ds or gaining traffic.. Well put yourself in their shoes. They already spend hours every day maintaining their system, in the cases of most large tgps.. If they have to sit and babysit and control every single spot and monitor every single gallery to ensure that someone who might not like it doesn't get "skimmed" or traded.. Well a few hours of work becomes 12, 15, 24 hours, considering the number of submissions the larger networks get. And are they supposed to keep a masterlist of the programs that don't want to be skimmed? Pretty soon it wouldn't be worthwhile at all. Comprimise is an important part of good business, but realizing when comprimise is moving in to the realm of sacrificing producitivity, profit, efficiency, etc, well.. It's not quite as worth it then.
This is why communication with your sponsor is IMPORTANT. Why is it so hard to drop an email to the sponsor saying you're using them on a Thumb TGP?
Also, I do find it odd that a skim is fine for traffic trades, yet when we (as a sponsor) pop an exit console that the affiliate might not get 100% credit for, affiliates go insane and start shit on boards...hey, that's how WE trade traffic.
So, simply email your sponsor, keep in contact with them (or at least your sales rep if the program has one). So many of these issues and so much of this drama on the boards could be avoided by simple communication...and, yes that works both ways, for the affiliate and sponsor.
SO, want to use Evil Genius Cash on your Thumb TGP? Great, hit me up so I know our thumbs are ONLY being used for our galleries or traffic trades. Need other content? Custom content? Let's communicate. I'm flexible, I just don't like surprises....
I would ask the same respect from a mailer, yahoo group promoter, P2P marketer, "creative" marketer, etc.
Originally posted by LadyMischief@Aug 12 2004, 01:34 PM I find the vast majority of the good tgps are willing to work with programs on a continuing basis, but at the same time, the programs need to find the flexbility to deal with the tgps on a level where everyone can benifit. If one expects the other to radically change the way they do business, it's going a little too far. A fine balance with REASONABLE expectations is all I think anyone ever asked. Extremism really has no place in business anyways.
see, I find the opposite...most TGPs are run entirely on scripts and they are imperfect...
The other day I asked for TGP's that would allow me, with a partner account, to post the large pics on html and very few would allow it. Well, even some of those who said it was ok...their scripts rejected the galleries, so I was unable to submit them anyways...
I also had a TGP owner freak out because I had a webmaster link at the bottom of my gallery (I find this is a good way to get webmasters because when they are surfing the TGP they want to submit to, they often surf the galleries and might see mine and want to promote it). I see very few of them being flexible and then they expect flexibility. They don't want the (sponsor) site they send to to have consoles, yet they often open links in new windows, skim traffic, etc.
I find it humorous that everyone expects flexibility and yet few seem to want to extend it to others (and yes, that includes sponsors as well ;-))
And if you wait until midnight and keeping hitting reload on your index page you can get to the top of the YNOT list for the first six hours!!
Hey it worked!!!
hehe! Yes, it certainly did!
Speaking of old shit ... I looked just the other day and saw I still hold one of the top positions (for four or five years now) on Push's Anarchy Links.
OK, I asked an owner of a large, well known and long time TGP what he would have done in this situation. He said he would have pulled the thumb/gallery even if the sponsor didn't cancel his affiliate account and if the sponsor wanted to cancel, that was fine. In fact, he said he's done it MANY times . And this was before he knew it was guy's wife, the TGP was on a free host and the link was taking the surfer to an autodownload script.
He may be the only person who agrees with me that the content owner has the right to cancel an affiliate if s/he disapproves of how his content is used and it took me traveling several hundred miles to find him, but at least I know I'm not COMPLETELY nuts.
BTW, nice, sunny, humid and HOT here in FLL - no Charley yet
Originally posted by Peaches@Aug 12 2004, 01:04 PM OK, I asked an owner of a large, well known and long time TGP what he would have done in this situation. He said he would have pulled the thumb/gallery even if the sponsor didn't cancel his affiliate account and if the sponsor wanted to cancel, that was fine. In fact, he said he's done it MANY times . And this was before he knew it was guy's wife, the TGP was on a free host and the link was taking the surfer to an autodownload script.
He may be the only person who agrees with me that the content owner has the right to cancel an affiliate if s/he disapproves of how his content is used and it took me traveling several hundred miles to find him, but at least I know I'm not COMPLETELY nuts.
BTW, nice, sunny, humid and HOT here in FLL - no Charley yet
I agree they have the right to do so, that was never a question. I feel program owners should have control over their content.. However I do feel that pulling content simply because tgps trade traffic is a little bit extreme.
Originally posted by Peaches@Aug 12 2004, 06:50 AM
Seriously, what is so freaking hard to understand this?
That's what I'm trying to figure out too!
Quote:
Geeze, it just amazes me that you guys, especially since you're IN the content biz, are saying someone doesn't have the right to STOP doing business with someone who uses their content when they don't want them to!
I'm not sure where or how you're reading into this that anyone denies that a sponsor can terminate a relationship with an affiliate for any reason.
I agree 100% on that point.
I'd like to know who the sponsors are who have a problem with the TGP skim, so I can be sure not to accidently promote their stuff. I'd encourage 'em to put it in their T&C explicitely so there's no hard feelings.
Quote:
But in this case a sponsor DID care, terminated the relationship and demanded the thumbs be removed. Why on God's green earth you guys are so bent out of shape because this one guy doesn't want to play in your sandbox is beyond me.
Bent out of shape? I'm just amused. To me, it's so stupid that it's funny.
Here's what I mean. The guy builds himself a pay site and sets up an affiliate program. And he builds and provides galleries and content for these "tgp thingies" obviously with no fucking clue about how they work and then when he stumbles across one and discovers the skim he has kittens.
Almost all TGP's skim...period. It's part of the traffic model that is the TGP game today. If you encourage your content to be used on them, it is going to be skimmed. It's just as stupid as providing the free content and then freaking out because someone is posting it without requring a credit card for access and kids might see it. It exhibits a basic lack of understanding of the industry they are trying to play in.
Quote:
Bottom line - if a sponsor doesn't care, then it's a non-issue and this would have NEVER come up.
You ducked my direct question.
Are Thumb TGPs risking their paychecks by skimming galleries provided by WEG and Purecash?
The answer is obviously yes for Celebrity Bling.
The answer is "maybe" for Evil Genius.....Sykk is dancing the two-step....
Here's MY bottom line... If you submit galleries to my TGP's, I'm gonna skim up to 30%. If I list a sponsors galleries, I'm gonna skim those too, so I'd like to know who has a problem with it so I can make sure I dont list 'em.
I will add one caveat. Remember I'm a tech geek, I sometimes do "interesting things" with the code and sql that builds my pages. Gimme a sponsor who has the shave turned down and is converting well and I'm prone to turn the skim down or off on their stuff because I want to push as much traffic as I possibly can to them.
P.S.: You took the nasty weather with you to Florida. Since noon it has been absolutely wonderful up here, clear, sunny, temperature in the mid-70's with a slight breeze all day....
Originally posted by LadyMischief@Aug 12 2004, 01:34 PM Also, I do find it odd that a skim is fine for traffic trades, yet when we (as a sponsor) pop an exit console that the affiliate might not get 100% credit for, affiliates go insane and start shit on boards...hey, that's how WE trade traffic.
good point!!! This is so true ...
the 'us' and 'them' feeling between sponsors and affiliates is getting worse by the minute ... both parties expect & demand the world, and bitch when it doesn't work that way.
If only we could all realize we are on the same side - we both want money from a surfer & the lions share for ourselves!! We just disagree on the ways to go about getting it ;-)
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Aug 12 2004, 07:46 PM
The answer is "maybe" for Evil Genius.....Sykk is dancing the two-step....
wrong
I'm simply asking that you provide the same courtesy that my mailers, p2p promoters, yahoo groups promoters, etc. do
if you are using a sponsor's content or promoting a sponsor in a way that MIGHT cause problems, why is it so hard to drop an email and say "is this ok?"
I get emails all the time from affiliates asking if they can promote us in a certain way and most of the time the answer is "yes".
OK, so you want to promote EGC with a 30% skim, great. Hit me up and let me know the account so I can keep an eye on it and if my boss comes to me and says "hey, what's this affiliate doing?" I can answer.
All I ask is that the skim goes to a trade and not a competing sponsor. Just like I wouldn't link your recip button to another TGP.
You have to understand where the sponsor is coming from as well. We pay a lot of money for content and like to know what's happening with our content. Imagine if you sent traffic to us and we skimmed 30% and didn't pay you for it. It's simply a communications thing.
I'm very big on communicating with affiliates, so email me, ICQ me, send me smoke signals, let's keep a line of communication open and that way everyone makes money and no one has a misunderstanding that causes one or both sides to avoid making money.
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Aug 12 2004, 07:46 PM The answer is obviously yes for Celebrity Bling.
How about you leave the Celebrity Bling rules up to me
I guess I can put you on the list of stubborn, non-flexible tgp owners who don't want to move forward into this century with auto-updating galleries featuring daily updated text news and open up your audience to material they haven't already seen a thousand times?!
>>Celebrity Bling would work much better for all of it's affiliates if you'd pay $45 per free signup! But I'm sure you wont do that because you're inflexible!
Not paying $45 per free signup makes me inflexible?!?!?! LMAO What a stupid thing to say on so many levels .... I asked a question about the flexibility of how the skim works and you respond with this? Your telling me that being flexible on the skim would cost you as much as it would cost me to pay $45 per free join?!?!?
LMAO
>Just another sponsor looking out for yourself, good to know in advance!
yeah ok HP, that's why i'm trying to have a discussion with tgp owners about alternatives to the standard skim procedure which will work for both tgp webmaster and sponsor, & you are carrying on like your skim is the secret of the freaking universe. Here you are defending your SHAVE as if you will go broke without it?!
Talk about the shoes switching feet.
You can accuse me of a lot of things, but looking out for myself over others has never been something i've been guilty of.
From what your telling me, no tgp can survive without skimming traffic from every single gallery, and that if they aren't allowed to skim, they won't list your galleries at all?!
Simple question ... lmk if you want me to type slower.
It's like we aren't even speaking the same language here all of the sudden. Now if you just wanna trade insults and call each other a dumb ass, that can be fun sometimes, but I kinda prefer to talk biz.
Try to see this from both sides. That's the point I was trying to make. Telling a TGP webmaster not to skim sounds just as crazy to him or her as him telling you that you need to switch to some insane payout scheme.
Outside of the true monster-sized sites like The Hun, the typical TGP gets 50-70% of it's visitors from trades originating off the skim. How can that be you ask? Here's the secret, on a good TGP, english speaking traffic that hasn't been jerked around will typically click a number of galleries. The TGP lets them have the gallery the majority of the time, but a certain percentage of the time they're gonna get bumped over to a trade. The trades themselves work like an oldschool toplist, the more you can send out, the more the site you're trading with sends back. Everyone grows.
There's a lot more factors than that at work to make it successful and make a buck off of it at the same time. But this is essentially why the removing the skim cant be on the table when you talk about improving the TGP game. You'd have to have an idea that makes up for a TON of traffic.
That doesn't make 'em "inflexible", there are other thing that CAN be brought to the table. There are needs in the TGP community. The TGP webmasters have a hell of a battle right now with the cat and mouse game currently being played by fuckers with toolbars, etc. There's an opportunity to establish networks of trust and business while tapping that traffic.
And for the sponsors, if you actually read my messages, remember my caveat. It's all sql and dynamic and it's VERY powerful with a geek at the helm. On my TGPs the thumbs that are MOST likely to get clicked are going to pull up a gallery everytime....or take you directly to a tour in some cases. And in each case it's my sponsors if not my own paysites.
There's opportunities to work together. But so far on Oprano there's a pattern of wanting to change the TGP world rather than work with it.
Or we can just go ahead and insult each other. I've got some great PMS references and mama jokes.
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Aug 13 2004, 01:25 AM Damn girl, are we even reading the same messages?
It's like we aren't even speaking the same language here all of the sudden. Now if you just wanna trade insults and call each other a dumb ass, that can be fun sometimes, but I kinda prefer to talk biz.
Try to see this from both sides. That's the point I was trying to make. Telling a TGP webmaster not to skim sounds just as crazy to him or her as him telling you that you need to switch to some insane payout scheme.
Outside of the true monster-sized sites like The Hun, the typical TGP gets 50-70% of it's visitors from trades originating off the skim. How can that be you ask? Here's the secret, on a good TGP, english speaking traffic that hasn't been jerked around will typically click a number of galleries. The TGP lets them have the gallery the majority of the time, but a certain percentage of the time they're gonna get bumped over to a trade. The trades themselves work like an oldschool toplist, the more you can send out, the more the site you're trading with sends back. Everyone grows.
There's a lot more factors than that at work to make it successful and make a buck off of it at the same time. But this is essentially why the removing the skim cant be on the table when you talk about improving the TGP game. You'd have to have an idea that makes up for a TON of traffic.
That doesn't make 'em "inflexible", there are other thing that CAN be brought to the table. There are needs in the TGP community. The TGP webmasters have a hell of a battle right now with the cat and mouse game currently being played by fuckers with toolbars, etc. There's an opportunity to establish networks of trust and business while tapping that traffic.
And for the sponsors, if you actually read my messages, remember my caveat. It's all sql and dynamic and it's VERY powerful with a geek at the helm. On my TGPs the thumbs that are MOST likely to get clicked are going to pull up a gallery everytime....or take you directly to a tour in some cases. And in each case it's my sponsors if not my own paysites.
There's opportunities to work together. But so far on Oprano there's a pattern of wanting to change the TGP world rather than work with it.
Or we can just go ahead and insult each other. I've got some great PMS references and mama jokes.
First off, I don't make the decisions on how content is used for either WEG or Purecash. I'm guessing you know the answer already for Purecash (and are just TRYING to be an asshole ) and if you want me to do it for you, I'll ask Jason tomorrow about WEG. I would ASSume it would be 100% fine with him.
You're acting as if this an assault on the TGPs who skim. You couldn't be more wrong. We all know they skim. We know they've skimmed and we know they will continue to skim. No one, at least not me, is trying to tell them to run their business any differently. I submit galleries to TGPs and I'm betting every single one of them skims. But if I was submitting my picture (there's a scary thought), and hits were being sent to site that did something I was against - autodownloading, Beasty, CP - , I'd be telling the TGP to take my gallery down.
*I* just have a problem with a TGP telling a program owner that they need to accept it and deal with it. No, they don't. They can submit to TGPs that don't send traffic to an autodownloader. They can submit to other TGPs that don't skim. They can stop submitting to TGPs. They can close up shop.
I wonder what would have happened if some of YOUR content was being sent to a site that autodownloaded Hooper's tool bar and Hooper was making $$$$ with 50% of the clicks to your content.
Now I'm going to sit here and be pissed that the wind and lightning seem to be dying down and I can't leave my window open because of the stupid assed people on the street blowing their damn horns! Times like this I miss my log cabin in the solitude (where WeatherBug says it's 62 degrees - but damn 88% humidity??! )
Originally posted by Dravyk@Aug 13 2004, 02:45 AM Hell Puppy, somewhere in this labyrinthine discussion, I think everyone else turned one way and you turned the other.
I think there 3 possible scenarios here:
1) We are talking about two totally different things and neither camp realizes it
2) HP has stopped producing content
3) HP has been kidnapped by aliens, is currently getting an anal probe and this is his temporary replacement
If he walks funny the next time we see him, we'll know.......................
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Aug 13 2004, 11:12 PM Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going outside and explain quantum physics to one of the rocks in my yard. :P
You could teach me how to do math in my head - same results. :P
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Aug 13 2004, 12:25 AM Try to see this from both sides. That's the point I was trying to make. Telling a TGP webmaster not to skim sounds just as crazy to him or her as him telling you that you need to switch to some insane payout scheme.
Before we continue ...
I never said anything about REMOVING the skim, I have been asking how many ways it can be applied that don't involve the photos. I didn't throw the first childish insult my dear ... posting after a few too many scotches the other day were you!?
On the subject of the skim. You go to your sponsor all the time and say 'i want credit for exits' and 'i demand you stop doing this or i won't promote you' etc. i'm giving tgp's conditions on how my galleries can be used.
And before I set those conditions, I'd like to understand what's possible, and how far you will bother to vary your system to suit a specific sponsors needs.
In my case, linking the thumbs to a porn tgp has legal consequences with unnecessarily high risk ... but I can have text links or toplists for other tgp's (that you are skimming to), rows of porn thumbs at the bottom of the page on the gallery pages or any other addition you may require to ensure MY THUMBS don't link to other tgp's.
Your thread experiment backfired ... what you and gonzo were using to sniff out sponsors has resulted in my fortunate finding of some tgp onwers who I'm looking forward to doing business with, and those who I know not to bother approaching
Originally posted by XXXPhoto@Aug 15 2004, 01:32 PM The number of rules an affiliate has to follow is inversely proportional to the total dollars they make a sponsor...
Originally posted by XXXPhoto@Aug 15 2004, 08:32 AM The number of rules an affiliate has to follow is inversely proportional to the total dollars they make a sponsor...
Originally posted by XXXPhoto@Aug 15 2004, 11:32 AM The number of rules an affiliate has to follow is inversely proportional to the total dollars they make a sponsor...
Why?
If I were to make a rule that tgp's had to have pics on html pages, would THAT make the affiliate less money? What about no pink in galleries? ... what about not being able to publish certain galleries in certain places? What about not letting affiliates do things which will cause chargebacks?
Plenty of rules a sponsor could come up with that would HELP the affiliate make more dollars, not less ... to assume that sponsors put rules in place so that affiliates will make LESS money is just rediculous. Rules are to PROTECT the sponsor from affiliates doing things which later causes the sponsor problems. Your statement says that if a sponsor is trying to protect themselves, they are screwing the affiliate (and themselves) out of making money?!
But we aren't talking about sponsors making rules, we are talking about TGP's making rules and refusing to adjust them in any way - even to bring content in which would keep surfers.
But as HP has informed us:
"All due respect to everyone involved, but I'm rapidly becoming convinced that unless you've tried running both a TGP and a paysite you cant understand all issues of both sides. "
LMAO
Nobody knows as much about this subject as HP, therefore we are all wrong and he is right
Thanks for opening our eyes HP - its a pity that with all your years of experience at both tgp's AND paysites, you still couldn't share a single piece of productive information with us in this thread.
Originally posted by cj@Aug 15 2004, 04:36 AM
Your thread experiment backfired ... what you and gonzo were using to sniff out sponsors has resulted in my fortunate finding of some tgp onwers who I'm looking forward to doing business with, and those who I know not to bother approaching
Originally posted by cj@Aug 15 2004, 08:42 PM
LMAO
Nobody knows as much about this subject as HP, therefore we are all wrong and he is right
Thanks for opening our eyes HP - its a pity that with all your years of experience at both tgp's AND paysites, you still couldn't share a single piece of productive information with us in this thread.
CJ,
I respect your opinion, really, I do. And I have honestly been trying to discuss this thing in a business like manner. I think after all of the gnawing and gnashing of teeth is done there's things to be learned on both sides.
However, when the subject of TGPs comes up, you really let the venom fly and seem to so strongly disapprove of the current model that you want to re-design it. And anyone who disagrees is a moron.
The conclusions I've drawn from this thread are:
1) There's still a lot of hard headed people here where TGP's are concerned....on both sides.
2) Some sponsors do not like redirects off preview thumbs, but most of them tolerate it because they want the traffic.
3) Both TGP owners and sponsors become very flexible if the money is right.
Now, if you'll excuse me, today I'm teaching my rock 370 assembly language.
>Now, if you'll excuse me, today I'm teaching my rock 370 assembly language.
yeah you are really trying to discuss this thing in a business like manner
It appears that while you have been trying to teach your rock, your head got stuck under it.
So before you lecture me anymore about what you call my 'general dislike for the tgp model', know that while I dislike the model I think its too late to change it and that the generic paysite model will fall before the tgp model will.
Its this simple ... nobody wants to pay for anything if they can help it, so there will always be more demand for free porn than there are for paysites - what surfers want, someone will give them because their EYES are what is valuable. Conversions on most paysite niches are not worth bothering with anymore for me, my women's and gay sites are the only sites that have stayed pretty consistent throughout the years.
I have been offered good $ on many occasions for ad spots on purve, i've always declined because the site was there for affiliates to make money off, not for me to sell other products with their traffic - and I was making enough selling paysite subscriptions.
This worked when purve converted 1/50 @ $20 - 30 per month with 6 months average retention ... It was easy when there were hardly any sites on the internet. Retention has dropped over the years in a steady decline, and its because many companies have started building 'portals' for women with all the editorial stuff i'm charging for FREE on their portals. Why? Because womens EYES are so valuable, you can afford to spend all that money developing content just to sell ad spots.
While I will always hold comtempt for the tgp model ruining a perfectly good business, I am just annoyed because it has made me have to change my own business model. But I'm over it already. It's fine, I'm in my element in the world of branding, bookmarkers and providing free samples anyway ... remember, I get people to think about surfing my sites before they even get to the internet, let alone a search engine - the media is a wonderful tool, and the media doesn't have a traffic skim. ;-)
08-12-2004
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