There's a big brou-ha-ha on a couple of the other boards between a sponsor and a TGP owner, that brings up an interesting issue....

Here's the scenario. Sponsor provides free gallery content for TGP posting as virtually all sponsors do now. Affiliate grabs the content and posts the gallery on his TGPs. These TGPs are thumb based, which means instead of a text link to the gallery it uses a cropped thumb from the gallery to link to the gallery.

Sponsor is making his rounds looking for fraud or whatever and see's the thumb, clicks the thumb and is sent somewhere else instead of to his gallery. Sponsor has a "hissy fit" and bans the affiliate and even goes so far as to get his host to shut him down for using unlicensed content. The TGP is running a skim, and that particular click was redirected to a trade. So the affiliate doesn't see any problem with it.

Added twist: what really set the sponsor off is not only did his thumb re-direct to something other than his gallery, it sent him to some other site that tried to Hooper-ify his system with a toolbar.

Thoughts?

I would have shitcanned the affiliate as well

what if that thumb were going to my competitor's website?
fuck that

run the skim on some text links or simply don't use our thumbs for the skim....

sponsor should not bitch, obviously was never in any tgp related biz.

too bad the affiliate got fucked, but, rinky dink sponsors will fuck you for whatever they want....it's in the tos after all. (what's the sponsor btw)

ohh get outa here, almost every tgp skims the thumbnail links.....

how do you think tgps work?

Grogan, every time I begin to suspect for a moment that you might have a grasp on things, you show me you still don't have a clue. If the content came from the sponsor, then it can only be used to promote the sponsor. No ifs, ands or buts. Period. Any other use if violation of DMCA.

What? A TGP guy (or even a two-day-old newbie) can't afford to buy 20 pics of their own to make thumbs for the trade scripts? BULLSHIT!!

I'm with you Sykk. I'd lop off his head, jam it on a pike, and parade it around on the boards for all to see. :zoinks:

You know, until this was brought up on another board, i never even thought of the legal implications. Brings up a lot of licensing issues. I mean, even if a paysite that is using licensed content says it's okay for an affiliate to use it on a skimmed thumb, is the content producer going to be okay with a 4th party benefitting without a license? Doubtful.

Legally speaking, it's definitley not okay, even if it does appear to be a minor issue.

ohh get outa here, almost every tgp skims the thumbnail links.....

how do you think tgps work? [/b][/quote]
I used to think your ignorance was part of your board persona, but now I wonder

if it's MY COMPANY'S content being used on that site and that skim is going to a competitors website? Fuck THAT! We don't pay for exclusive content so a TGP owner can skim their traffic to a competitor using that content

what about the 2257 implications as well?

I´m not upto date with court rulings on thumbnails copyright infringement, however didn´t the US Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals say that using thumbnails fell within the copyright law exception of “fair use”? (I think this case was 2-3 years old against ditto.com). So basicly you can use ANY image as thumbnail without owner giving you permission aslong as it is "fair use" (I´m not sure skimming is under fair use, and not so sure a judge will see it as fair use either)?

Now the 2257 issue is another problem, which I´m sure we will know more about once someone has set precedence.

Nick...you need to fail Sykk and give Grogan a promotion.

I have to agree with Sykkboy in a limited way on this one. If you have exclusive content and you provide that content to your affiliates to help them make sales I think it goes without saying that those sales need to be to YOUR site. But if the traffic is being redirected in a traffic trade to another TGP then I would probably let it slide.
Recently here we found an affiliate who had populated a good portion of his TGP with our thumbs and NONE of them pointed to anything even remotely close to one of our galleries or in any way promoting our sites.


spaz :matey:

This is a good thread I hope to hear more discussion on it.

Hmmm .... Lack of communication

Looking at from both sides

As a TGP owner it's S.O.P.
As a program owner (especially with exclusive content) I want every hit/sale my content is used for, I don't want my promo material associated with or used for hi-jinks (unless they are my own)

If the affiliate was doing big numbers chances are they wouldn't have gotten canned

Couple of simple emails could have went far in rectifying the situation

Bullshit!

If a TGP owner lists a sponsor hosted gallery using their OWN affiliate codes, that gallery SHOULD be exculsive to the sponsor, as should the content.....

Using that content to jerk traffic around aint kosher.....

Bullshit!

If a TGP owner lists a sponsor hosted gallery using their OWN affiliate codes, that gallery SHOULD be exculsive to the sponsor, as should the content.....

Using that content to jerk traffic around aint kosher..... [/b][/quote]
so, a sponsor should say "We don't want ANY traffic from tgps that skim from thumbnail links..."

Frankly I'd think the sponsor would prefer 40% of those clicks going to their gallery than zero. It's not like the skimmed clicks are going to a different paysite anyway.

I'm siding with the program owner on this one:

If it's HIS (or her) content, then it should go to their site. Period.

it's not really "jerking" traffic around as opposed to promoting trades and growth on the tgp sites. It can mean the difference between a sponsor's gallery getting 1000 hits or 100,000 hits.

Sig view?

so, a sponsor should say "We don't want ANY traffic from tgps that skim from thumbnail links..."

Frankly I'd think the sponsor would prefer 40% of those clicks going to their gallery than zero. It's not like the skimmed clicks are going to a different paysite anyway. [/b][/quote]
No, a sponsor should say (and seriously, I guess I'm just ignorant to think this would go WITHOUT saying) "Don't sent traffic to another site using OUR content."

No, a sponsor should say (and seriously, I guess I'm just ignorant to think this would go WITHOUT saying) "Don't sent traffic to another site using OUR content." [/b][/quote]
exactly. But I think sponsors should allow for the traffic trade that is the standard for TGPs nowadays. But if the picture links to a different gallery or to a different paysite directly through the script (as was our case) then kill the affiliate
IMHO


spaz :matey:

Therein lies the rub .....

A program gives content for us to promote their sites, not other sites/programs/traffic trades

If the thumbnail is a sponsor's content and is clicked then goes to another site (trade, toolbar, whatever) then the content is being used for promotion of someone else's product


But as I've also stated that's how TGP's operate

and again if the affiliate was doing big business wit the program the issue would/could have been worked out


What's the answer?
Mmmmmm, TGP's using their own content and only trading from some pic links?
Don't know if that would work

so, a sponsor should say "We don't want ANY traffic from tgps that skim from thumbnail links..."

Frankly I'd think the sponsor would prefer 40% of those clicks going to their gallery than zero. It's not like the skimmed clicks are going to a different paysite anyway. [/b][/quote]
Typically its 70% a skim past 30% usually dont work.

However if Shemp was here he would disagree with me saying that CJ's suck ass in any form or fashion.

I wonder how many program owners are going to go thru say TTT and terminate all the accounts of the TGPs that are listed there?

Thats just like me saying I dont want my gallery click to go to a page that has any upsell links on it or consoles that I dont get credited for... reckon any program owner wants to open that can of worms?

For all of you just tuning into the TGP market for the first time in several years let me clarify what Steve Grogan and I are both saying.

The TGP traffic trade takes a percentage of clicks and redirects them to ANOTHER TGP as part of the trade. So the user isnt taken to a competitors gallery or the content isnt used to go to another gallery -- only another TGP. Which yes increases your traffic by trading out with others in your trade network. Thats why is important to know the people that are submitting galleries as well as the people you are trading with.

The other board discussion came up when the Thumb was created and linked to a gallery page and not a trade.

Some of us are working on a trusted site that covers both aspects for all users of Oprano. More updates as progress is made.

I think most sponsors do not care, if it goes to a trade (unless it is some very high priced exclusive content). The problem is that TGP owner should verify with the program, if its alright to do trading with/via the sponsors content/thumbs... No need to risk a business relationship due to miscommunication or lack of communication.

If the TGP is using the content/thumb to send to a random paysite/gallery, which the program owner has no direct intrest in, then I would think most paysite owners would be upset.

a sponsor like, that will never ever make a serious tgp presence.
it would not surprise me if that sponsor browsed this board. :)

The facts as I see them.

1) The thumb in question was exclusive to the sponsor from a solo amateur site.
2) The sponsor encountered a toolbar installer 3 times (according to Norton) from clicking the thumb + other skims not related to the sponsor.
3) The TGP in question was hosted on a free host.
4) The sponsor emailed both the TGP owner and the hosting company asking for their content to be removed.
5) The free host decided to pull the site.
6) The sponsor posts on a "possible cheaters" forum that the TGP owner is cheating.
7) Greenguy backs the sponsor on the board by saying that the sponsor has the right to protect their own content.
8) Lots of thumb preview TGP owners come into the thread and tell Greenguy and others that they don't understand how TGPs work.

So riddle me this - what is the problem with the TGP owner getting their own content? Why would they even tempt fate by using a program owner's content? :unsure:

Simple fix.

Skim from text links .

Leave thumbnails alone , or just buy a few pics to use.

However if I was the sponsor I'd let in slide.

In the scheme of things , why give a fuck.

You hit the nail on the head, Gonzo.. and the thing that this particular person isn't realizing, is that oftentimes their galleries will get listed on these other sites that the traffic is being directed to as well, so they aren't really losing out on anything. In the long run it means MORe traffic to their program, not less.

Have you ever tried to promote a reality site with bought content? Doesn't work so well/.

A lot of TGP owners are saying that it's standard practice to skim off sponsor hosted gallery thumbs.

Everybody is doing it, so that makes it ok.

This sponsor is being slammed big time on the boards when he is only guilty of being the first sponsor to actually stand up and say... "Hey!!! don't use my content like that!"

You hit the nail on the head, Gonzo.. and the thing that this particular person isn't realizing, is that oftentimes their galleries will get listed on these other sites that the traffic is being directed to as well, so they aren't really losing out on anything. In the long run it means MORe traffic to their program, not less. [/b][/quote]
BINGO!!!!

:)

Have you ever tried to promote a reality site with bought content? Doesn't work so well/. [/b][/quote]
Why should they worry about content to promote a reality site when they're sending the surfer to another TGP? The reality site content can go to the reality site and the content the TGP owner buys can be used for trades. Seems pretty simple to me, but apparently I'm missing something...........

You hit the nail on the head, Gonzo.. and the thing that this particular person isn't realizing, is that oftentimes their galleries will get listed on these other sites that the traffic is being directed to as well, so they aren't really losing out on anything. In the long run it means MORe traffic to their program, not less. [/b][/quote]
So because they MIGHT POSSIBLY be put on another TGP because of this thumb trade, they should be happy that their exclusive content is being linked to another TGP, and worse, to one that autoinstalls programs? Color me stupid, but I just don't see the "benefit" to anyone except the TGP owners and I see a definite detriment to the content owner. <_<

Now, if the content owner says "Dude, no problem. Link my pictures to other TGPs and that's cool" that's one thing. Sure doesn't look like that's the situation here, though.

So because they MIGHT POSSIBLY be put on another TGP because of this thumb trade, they should be happy that their exclusive content is being linked to another TGP, and worse, to one that autoinstalls programs? Color me stupid, but I just don't see the "benefit" to anyone except the TGP owners and I see a definite detriment to the content owner. <_<

Now, if the content owner says "Dude, no problem. Link my pictures to other TGPs and that's cool" that's one thing. Sure doesn't look like that's the situation here, though. [/b][/quote]
Im done explaining this.

Ill bring you a box of Crayolas to Florida. Todays TGP market is different than building a free site of yesteryear. If its exclusive content its not used as promo.

The most effective use of promo content Ive seen is how CJ has handed Celebrity Bling. Her promo content is expensive.... shes released a very small amount of it for promo to very few people that are judiciously doling it out to specific affiliates signed up under them.

Flipside...all you have to do is to go in the bullshit forum here on Oprano and you will see that the program owners are BEGGING you to use those links by drive spamming every resource board with it weekly.

That dont count the email I get on a daily basis.

TGP , free hosts....they were always about the skim , if they were run right. ;-)))

There is nothing new under the sun.

Gonzo , its like trying to explain "The shave" to gfyers.

If the sponsor throws good parties , has some hot chicks on staff and is nice to everyone = "He does not shave"



;-))))

First of all, the "conversation" about this on another board is really more about some people repeating their canned tirades about traffic trading in general.

If a sponsor program doesn't want their images used in that fashion and they do not specify that in their TOS, they (IMHO) did not do their homework before putting out hosted galleries.

Urgent message on the "other secret wink wink board" folks


:)

Apples and oranges. A sponsor WANTING the TGP to do this is one thing. A sponsor NOT wanting the TGP to do this is something entirely different.

Did you guys miss the part of every sponsor TOS I've read/created/accepted where it says "We can terminate this agreement at any time"?

A sponsor has every right to decide where his/her content is going to be used and what affiliates they want in the program. If, as it's been said, not allowing these links will hurt the sponsor, so be it. That's the sponsor's choice.

Apples and oranges. A sponsor WANTING the TGP to do this is one thing. A sponsor NOT wanting the TGP to do this is something entirely different.

Did you guys miss the part of every sponsor TOS I've read/created/accepted where it says "We can terminate this agreement at any time"?

A sponsor has every right to decide where his/her content is going to be used and what affiliates they want in the program. If, as it's been said, not allowing these links will hurt the sponsor, so be it. That's the sponsor's choice. [/b][/quote]
Apples and oranges my ass!

Did you read Spaz's post about it wasnt a skim to begin with but it was being linked to another sponsors gallery?

Amusing....the only thing thats changed is the color of blinders youve decided to wear.

the Vick says this ........

the Vick says "it's much ado about nothing"

Furthermore the Vick says "if the affiliate was worth a damn the sponsor would have <found a way to> kept them and that's why it's much ado about nothing"

and now the Vick says "if you don't play pretty I won't sit between you at dinner"


and that's the bottom line because .....




oh shit I summoned Austin when doing the Rock
Glad it's Football Season

So you think a sponsor who doesn't mind their content being used in this fashion is the same as sponsor who doesn't? :unsure: Of course they're different!

Are you seriously saying that a sponsor doesn't have the right to cancel an affilate who is doing something he doesn't want them to do with their content?

Maybe I'm missing something really, really, really huge here, but sponsors being able to cancel affilates for doing things they don't want them doing doesn't seem like it's a new concept all of a sudden...... :blink:

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :



:burn: :burn: :burn:



:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :

Hellpuppy just wanted to win an Xbox :agrin:

So you think a sponsor who doesn't mind their content being used in this fashion is the same as sponsor who doesn't? :unsure: Of course they're different!

Are you seriously saying that a sponsor doesn't have the right to cancel an affilate who is doing something he doesn't want them to do with their content?

Maybe I'm missing something really, really, really huge here, but sponsors being able to cancel affilates for doing things they don't want them doing doesn't seem like it's a new concept all of a sudden...... :blink: [/b][/quote]
Im sure you know a few sponsors to ask....

First of all, I wouldn't just out and out shitcan the affiliate without emailing them telling them to avoiding using our content in this manner.

We've been allowing our content to be used in yahoo groups (as long as they were promoting our sites as well and the images weren't changed in any way). The problem is, we want them promoting OUR SITES.

See, we have this crazy deal with our site and models and members: they trust us and our girs are becoming well known. Our girls aren't as well known as the Lightspeed Girls, but we're working on it ;-)) What happens if this skim using our thumb is sent to a site that might be listing kiddie porn galleries? What if the skim is going to our competitors site?

So, what some of you guys are saying is I can use a purecash banner to promote my own program as long as I send 70% of my traffic to purecash? What about using a Little April banner to send traffic to Tawney Stone's site? Even better, what if I use a Lesbian Pink banner to send traffic to lesbian 101? ny of those sponsors would shitcan me and most likely not bother with an email or any other form of contact.

When we give content to our affiliates, it is to promote our sites. That's it. It's no different than providing banners, full page ads or hosted galleries.

psst, there's a glitch in the matrix
fax hit the line yesterday, but the sultan is sluggish on the recoil...
;-)

psst, there's a glitch in the matrix
fax hit the line yesterday, but the sultan is sluggish on the recoil...
;-) [/b][/quote]
Mike AI is in transit.

BREAK!!!!!!!!!!

We seem to have a conflict....

We have ...

employees who want to protect there companies copyrighted material.

And businessmen who want traffic.

A dliemma


OK START BOXING!


:popcorn:

I repeat Mike AI is in transit hahahahaha!

I disagree.

I think we have businessmen on both sides who want to do whatever they can to make as much money as they can :)

The problem seems be that when Businessman A says he doesn't want to do business anymore with Businessman B, Businessman B says they are required to. :P