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The head of Sweet Entertainment Group, Steve Sweet, will go to trial next Monday, February 16th, 2004 in Vancouver, British Columbia on charges of making and distributing obscene material contrary to s. 163 (1) of the Criminal Code of Canada.
The Crown alleges that eleven (11) video vignettes are obscene under Canadian law. The videos consist of one (1) Pee Lovers scene, two (2) Miss Pain scenes, and eight (8) Sado Slaves scenes. With the exception of the Pee Lovers scene, the performances in question all document bondage and discipline/sado-masochistic play.
The Crown alleges that the videos are obscene because they combine explicit sex with cruelty, and violence, which is statutorily prohibited in Canada under s. 163 (8) of the Criminal Code of Canada.
Mr. Sweet will be launching a vigorous defense to the charges including leading expert evidence regarding the popularity of BDSM, the safe sane and consensual nature of the acts depicted in the vignettes and the unlikelihood of any substantial risk of harm. Live Internet demonstrative evidence will also be tendered at trial concerning the popularity, ease of availability and sheer number of BDSM websites since the World Wide Web came into its own. The case will raise new and important issues concerning contemporary Canadian community standards, what Canadians will tolerate other Canadians viewing, which is one aspect of the obscenity test set out in the seminal Supreme Court of Canada decision Regina v. Butler. Butler was decided in 1992, well before the explosion of adult-based entertainment on the Internet.
The trial is presently scheduled for six (6) weeks. Further information will be forthcoming at the conclusion of the trial.
Sweet Entertainment Group will continue to provide cutting edge adult entertainment to its many members and customers as Mr. Sweet rises to meet this important legal challenge.
P.G. Kent-Snowsell. B.A., LL.B. Barrister
Head of Legal Affairs
Sweet Entertainment Group of Companies
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Even though it is in Canada, it is the type of thing that will continue to steamroll.
Give Dumbo-ya another 4 years without re election to worry about and the prosecutions in the US are going to make the Meese Commission look like a Hedonism Event.
I have seen some of Steve's content. I am not sure whether he should be convicted or not, but his stuff is WAY over the line.
On other boards people were praising him and wishing him luck, but the reality is Steve is bad for the business. He is not pushing boundaries, but rather abusing/demeaning women.
Just because there is a market out there, does not justify providing content for it.
Same the Rob Black and Extrme stuff in the States. He deserves to go to jail, just for being a moron!
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Being that the study of Canadian Obscenity laws is high on my list of things to keep on top of, I will say from my knowledge of them that he's broken MANY MANY MANY of them, and the liklihood of him walking away from this one scott free is highly unlikely. Canada has fairly progressive laws and courts when it comes to these types of issues, but there are certain things they simply WILL NOT allow to slip through the cracks.
I have heard all different kinds of stories about the treatment of their models and the situations good and bad, but being that I've never seen their productions first hand, I couldn't possibly comment on the legal issues involved there. But as far as the content itself, I'm pretty sure there will be a conviction, no matter which way the wind blows as far as support.
And unfortunately they are not the only producers in Canada that produce stuff extreme enough to put them on the radar. It's going to bode difficult times for anyone who wants to produce content in Canada, like it or not. Kind of glad I'm taking a break for a while and seeing where things are at when the dust clears.
Last edited by LadyMischief at Feb 14 2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Evil Chris@Feb 14 2004, 02:05 PM How is his content different from the Max Hardcore feeds, Mike? You carry those on your sites.
Since we're all in the mood to hand out our personal distinctions of what's acceptable and what isn't... let's get it on shall we?
Chris, I feel the same way about Max Hardcore. To be honest I did not know we had the feeds on our site, I will look into it.
I have confronted Max and told him what a putz he is. During the boobs wars on the final day of the show the first year in Hollywood, I nailed his ass and knocked off his hat!
You know me better Chris, I am pretty consistent. I am not just picking on Steve cause he is Canadian. I actually like Steve, I can sit and talk with him - where as I won't even talk to Max.
Steve just pushes things to far in my book.... and he should not be shocked for getting pinched for it.
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But Chris, this is happening in Canada, that horrible place to the north. No matter what, of course we are wrong!
I won't comment on Steve's legal issues, but I will say that Canadian law is pretty darn clear on what is and isn't acceptable. Heck, our cable movie channels now show full penetration, oral sex (including same sex) - pretty much everything except the money shot. It won't be long before that is normal and acceptable. You can see about 75% of this sort of thing late night in Quebec on broadcast channels.
Alex
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 14 2004, 03:10 PM But Chris, this is happening in Canada, that horrible place to the north. No matter what, of course we are wrong!
I won't comment on Steve's legal issues, but I will say that Canadian law is pretty darn clear on what is and isn't acceptable. Heck, our cable movie channels now show full penetration, oral sex (including same sex) - pretty much everything except the money shot. It won't be long before that is normal and acceptable. You can see about 75% of this sort of thing late night in Quebec on broadcast channels.
Alex
Alex you continue to be a moron!
At least somethings are consistent.
This is not a US/Candian/Ukraine/UK/France issue.....
If you noticed I pointed out Rob Black, and last I checked he lived in the USA.
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Thats really to bad for the Sweet's all that heat , I never dealt with them in terms of the adult bizz before but with some other business Steve Seems like a good guy .
Best of Luck to Them
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Mike, you have been enjoying yourself crapping on Canadians, I figured I would just give you another opening to rip us all an extra asshole.
Y'see, it is a canadian issue - Canadian law, rather than US law. It is about how we see things (including sex and free speech) differently. it isn't 100% clear that the things Steve is getting hit for in Canada would be considered obscene in other places.
Having you call me a moron actually makes me feel better. :-)
Alex
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Actually from what I understand this had alot less to do with the kind of content he was producing and more to do with his breaking the law with regard to forcing models to do more then they bargained for.
How long did the law look the other way on what they were producing? Trust me the law looked... it wasnt a matter of them flying under the radar.
What apparently pushed the limit was girls who went to the police about their treatment by him. So these same girls are not really wanting to press charges, not really wanting to be the proverbial pig hung out to bleed. The cops get pissed enough to look real closely.
Seems like the lesson is don't act like an asshole if you push the limits on your content making. I have no first hand knowledge of any of this it is only just what I have heard from someone who lives close by.
"alleging that the material in question combines explicit sex with violence or torture or that the material is degrading and dehumanizing"
This means sex with someone bound. This is highly illegal in Canada. I think in the usa too. Those pictures where you see a bound up gal and a guy having sex with her are pretty darn rare and if you do find them they are usually asian.
The reason? cant show consent in pictures. Movies? if they are story line movies you cant put in a little filmed blurb with the girls saying they consent.
How does a site like http://www.insex.com do it? they never have a real person penetrating the women. Dildo's and fuck machines.
Would have to watch the movies they have charged them on to know more... but it has to have been a penetration scene where the gals were forcebly held, bound etc.
So if you read that statement... violence and torture are not the issue...it is only the issue when you combine it with sex.
Interesting. I am Canadian. I hope that he goes to jail if he deserves it. Its that simple I think.
Originally posted by gonzo@Feb 14 2004, 04:36 PM He has pushed the envelope but I can almost guarantee you he doesnt see it that way. Steve just like the shock element and thats what its always been about. I remember in Hollywood when he was showing me his pisslovers site and I told him not only was he fucked up but that it was gonna spell trouble for him.
Steve just thought it was funny as hell that he got these girls to do this on cam. And the scene he showed me the girl was into drinking urine -- she damn near licked the glass.
Gonzo, what happens when the next girl refuses to drink the piss and lick the glass?
the problem with producing this kind of content is that once you do a few shoots, find a few kinky chicks who will drink piss and insert lamp shades in their vagina's, you create a demand for that type of content, therefore you need to keep producing that content to keep making the $$.
What happens when you've hired every kinky chick in the greater vancouver area who will drink piss for money and then you run out of girls? You have tens of thousands of surfers who will only recur if you make more content and 100's of webmasters who count on you continuing to produce that content for their own websites.
How many of you, HONESTLY, would stop producing this type of content at this point? Keep in mind, we are talking millions and millions of dollars a month back in the old days ...
Let's say you start being a little 'vague' in your advertising for models, not mentioning some of the more 'extreme' things the girls might have to do, with the intention of suggesting these things when they arrive ... You get the girl there, she's uncomfortable but needs the money she thought she was going to be paid so she does whatever is asked of her.
Its a very fine line between 'yes' and 'yes because i need another hit of heroin' ...
As a total aside from the content production, I've spoken to lots of the women in this biz and many have had an 'experience' with Steve, where he was perhaps a little to agressive with his come-ons. I think Steve's problem is that he has trouble accepting that there are women who don't want to fuck him, not that he's an evil person.
The fact that he thinks what he does is funny makes me think he needs a smack - how much smacking depends on how long it takes him to realize that a girl gagging on his cock is not funny.
I vote we get all the models together and a couple of strapons ... then we'll see just HOW funny it is to watch someone in pain!!
there comes a point when you have to ask yourself and others when is enough enough. put aside your personal feelings for your friend/colleague/peer and look beyond to the actions and consequences this one person or group of persons will have on you and your income/employment/career.
id hate to see anyone have to go through any legal system cause justice in any country is never completely fair. however, if you have to look at what you do and question your actions (or others repeatedly question your actions in a chance to change your mind about what you have done or about to do) and you decide to push forward with those questionable actions, then you get what is deserved.
pissing/shitting/rape/extreme violence/degration/etc.... those are common words for actions that the world population, for the most part, does not like to hear or see; this is extremely, basic, common sense. cross the line and produce content such as the above; questioning the consequences associated with producing said content should never happen. it should be look at as sheer stupidity. i just hope a large sum of money was made from this blatent disregard of what is considered WRONG. if the money wasnt made then......well i wont even go there.
again, i hate to see anyone have legal problems but he was just asking for trouble and trouble came, pounded on the door and then broken in with a vengence.
Welp, the Sweets have been around for a LONG time. They have had the pleasure of having counsel on staff not to mention access to outside counsel. They have always made decisions informed with great bankroll.
In content, it is big money but with big money comes big risks. They knew the risks and what it would take to set themselves apart in a saturated genre'.
They took risks, and now that bill has come due. This trial will cost them more than money and they may never recover from it financially.
I would have at least thought if they were gonna push the envelope they would use an overseas more liberal country as their "mailman".
Canada will make the Sweets their poster child.
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cj, that is an excellent post. I must say that I agree with everything that you have said.
I too wonder about the weak willed junkies in some of these video's...there is consent and then there is 'of sound mind consent', in which case I would have to believe that "sound mind consent" does not exsist in most cases....
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Our business for the most part is about exploitation and degradation.
We try to get the models to do more for less and they try to get paid more for doing less.
Even the proverbial 18 year old stepping of the bus doing some nudie pics can be as degrading as a crackwhore drinking piss.
I realize there is a world of difference between being nude for a dirty old man and drinking piss, but there can still be humiliation on the part of the model in both situations.
While I admit to not being able to handle a lot of the Sweet scenarios (I'm not in sadism or pissing) I would still defend a model's right to consent. I understand the point of real consent and consent because I have to pay the bills...but how many "normal" porn model situations are because the model needed the money for a fix, rent, daycare, etc.? How many strippers hit the stage each night to earn their rent money by bumping and grinding and rubbing against sweaty fat men for $20 bills? Is that not also degrading and humiliating?
We all make choices in life and some of them come with paybacks we don't anticipate nor like.
Without the likes of Max Hardcore and Steve Sweet being the envelope pushers, everyone else is at the edge of the envelope...
I think the Sweets' biggest problem stems from them rubbing it in the face of local law enforcement...if they had stayed quiet and discreet, they probably wouldn't have had nearly the problems they are having.
Originally posted by Evil Chris@Feb 16 2004, 03:59 PM Mike, my point here really is that none of us are in a position to judge.
I haven't voted in this poll, nor have I looked at the results of it. I'm simply not interested. It's not an intelligent poll.
and Gonzo... don't you dare even consider putting Alex in the mouths of morons area. He can out-wit, out-play, and out-last you any day of the week.
Chris when you can grow enough ass to back up telling me what to do then by all means do it. In the meantime maybe you should worry about why advertisers are leaving Ghettonations and stop worrying what Im doing here or how well their ads are preforming on Oprano.
Ill be adding Alex in momentarily.
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Originally posted by Evil Chris@Feb 16 2004, 03:59 PM Mike, my point here really is that none of us are in a position to judge.
I haven't voted in this poll, nor have I looked at the results of it. I'm simply not interested. It's not an intelligent poll.
and Gonzo... don't you dare even consider putting Alex in the mouths of morons area. He can out-wit, out-play, and out-last you any day of the week.
Chris, we make judgements all the time. At least I do... that is part of life. Some of us don't sit on fences, or stick our fingers in the air to see which way the winds are blowing. You know me, I am the type who calls it the way he sees it - no matter what.
I did not vote in the poll either, I really do not care. I like Steve, but what he did crossed the line and now there are reprocutions for it. Simple as that.
I know Alex has a hard time understanding, but I have nothing against Canadians in general. To tie the Canadian issue to Steve's legal woes is STUPID - and if Alex cannot be wittier then this, he will certainly not outwit Gonzo.
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unfortunately I think Steve Sweet will be convicted of at least something. I also think that there will be groups on both side of the border that will make much MUCH more out of it then what it warrants.
I can see pressure being put on the current admin here in the US to produce more crackdowns as a result of it. It makes for great fundamentalists headlines on how they are making the world (and internet) safe for kids.
I know it seems like I am jumping from one topic to another, but anyone who has followed the issue knows full well that they ALWAYS lump porn and kids together..........helps to make it indefensible to the viewing public.
Gonzo we can piss and laugh about it, or hate one another.
I have always been about the former, however you seem to be more about the latter.
If you can't take me picking at you from time to time, you are working in the wrong sweat factory.
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Originally posted by Evil Chris@Feb 16 2004, 04:48 PM Gonzo we can piss and laugh about it, or hate one another.
I have always been about the former, however you seem to be more about the latter.
If you can't take me picking at you from time to time, you are working in the wrong sweat factory.
No Sweat Factory around here....
Serge is in South America looking to outsource! :P
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Originally posted by Evil Chris@Feb 16 2004, 04:48 PM Gonzo we can piss and laugh about it, or hate one another.
I have always been about the former, however you seem to be more about the latter.
If you can't take me picking at you from time to time, you are working in the wrong sweat factory.
man you do have it all wrong. I cant think of but one person I know of in this entire industry that I would say my feelings even border on hatred. Ill let you think on it and see if you can guess. But it wont be obvious.
See the difference is Im not sweating anything. Maybe since all the easy money is gone a lot of people are a little more irratable these days?
I guess time will tell. But I can assure you I think of you each time I have a large meal at Mortons or Chops.
"Dont go in there...I just took a massive Evil Chris."
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Originally posted by gonzo@Feb 16 2004, 05:57 PM man you do have it all wrong. I cant think of but one person I know of in this entire industry that I would say my feelings even border on hatred. Ill let you think on it and see if you can guess. But it wont be obvious.
*sigh* Just because I don't want you and HP to bring a bunch of nekkid girls to my private personal enclave in the mountains...... Geeze. :angry:
Chris thanks... having Gonzo put me on the Oprano "moron" list is an honor, actually... it proves that I at least have thoughts outside of the approved comments from the "one party system" that tends to be the norm around here.
Mike, I don't have to compete with anyone, and there lies the difference. I come here for fun, that's all. When I don't post here is because it isn't enjoyable or fun. It is fun to try to get y'all to expand your thinking past the end of dubya's nose... but some times it ain't easy.
Alex
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Originally posted by SykkBoy@Feb 16 2004, 12:56 PM Our business for the most part is about exploitation and degradation.
We try to get the models to do more for less and they try to get paid more for doing less.
Even the proverbial 18 year old stepping of the bus doing some nudie pics can be as degrading as a crackwhore drinking piss.
I realize there is a world of difference between being nude for a dirty old man and drinking piss, but there can still be humiliation on the part of the model in both situations.
While I admit to not being able to handle a lot of the Sweet scenarios (I'm not in sadism or pissing) I would still defend a model's right to consent. I understand the point of real consent and consent because I have to pay the bills...but how many "normal" porn model situations are because the model needed the money for a fix, rent, daycare, etc.? How many strippers hit the stage each night to earn their rent money by bumping and grinding and rubbing against sweaty fat men for $20 bills? Is that not also degrading and humiliating?
We all make choices in life and some of them come with paybacks we don't anticipate nor like.
Without the likes of Max Hardcore and Steve Sweet being the envelope pushers, everyone else is at the edge of the envelope...
I think the Sweets' biggest problem stems from them rubbing it in the face of local law enforcement...if they had stayed quiet and discreet, they probably wouldn't have had nearly the problems they are having.
Steve's an outstanding guy... A real Gentleman. He does push the envelope and I think he does it to be different in an oversaturated market.
To debate whether or not the girls are consenting or not, well, if you are over 18 and you sign your name on something, apparently that means you're consenting. Whether you're signing a bank loan or a model release.
Movies are makeup, hair and a little acting... and if its shock value that Sweet is looking for then the girls have acted their roles properly.
Some of the laws that exist are completely fucking idiotic... a girl can piss on a guy but if a guy pisses on a girl, it's considered demeaning and illegal...YET, fisting the fuck out of a girl is legal in most U.S. States.
Some people actually pay to have the things done to them that Sweet depicts in their movies so who the fuck are we to judge what is right and what is wrong.
I think for the sake of the future of our business, Steve should pull out everything he's got and defend himself to the fullest extent. If he gets taken down, he'll be the first of a long line to follow.
In all this talk about nothing... people kinda ignore an important fact that RawAlex was careful enough to point out. The law in Canada is pretty black and white on some of these issues. It is clear where the boundaries are and clear when those boundaries are/were being pushed. You dont have to be against Canada to point that out. I think its a great thing that things are more clear whereas, in the US the legality of any online business can be called into question. Whats legal in LA, California might not be legal in Sistersex, Alabama which presents a problem given the nature of the internet. I agree with community standards in principal... but i think it creates more questions that it solves online. At least Canada is not struggling with that.
Steve Sweet pushed. He knew where the boundaries are and consciously chose to push beyond those boundaries. No one is disputing that. So... nothing happening should be a surprise. I am sure he is a nice guy... but I know a lot of nice people who have went to prison for breaking the law.
On another note concerning the ACTUAL trial that is going on... did anyone actually even READ the press release?
This case has nothing to do with models being forced... It has to do with Bondage/BDSM practices... almost all of the scenes in question involve play piercing in a BDSM scenario.
There isn't a single scene where there actually shows hardcore sex with a bound woman... the case is based on presumption that there was penetration but at no time can you see this in the videos.
Sweets were not oblivious to what the law states, they followed it. The law states that you cannot show penetration involving a bound woman. The court is saying that they crossed that line, yet I'd like anyone to show me where that can be found in ANY of their content... I have personally seen the videos that are being questionned and it doesn't exist.
i guess i am off track a little. "will he be convicted"? .. i can't possibly say. "was he clearly pushing the limit and beyond and did he make himself a target?" ... yes.
Originally posted by JR@Feb 18 2004, 02:36 PM i guess i am off track a little. "will he be convicted"? .. i can't possibly say. "was he clearly pushing the limit and beyond and did he make himself a target?" ... yes.
Anyone that has ever succeeded and made it big in life has usually pushed the threashold and become a target. This is how is how things evolve... this is what forces new law structure. Without it, we'd be in the stoneages.
Mr. Bush is doing the exact same thing right now with his war politics. Believe me, he's guilty of crimes and new laws will be formed.
Sykk: "Without the likes of Max Hardcore and Steve Sweet being the envelope pushers, everyone else is at the edge of the envelope..."
That's a great point Sykk, but still... do we want them out there doing that stuff just so that we're safe?
If the girls are truly consenting then by all means I see no problem with it whatsoever. I've heard horror stories about Max's models being sent to the emergency room though, and if it's true then that's way over the line.
Good Chris: "YET, fisting the fuck out of a girl is legal in most U.S. States"
And...?
I'd dare say that the women getting fisted are enjoying it... it's pretty damn hard to get your first up there if you're NOT enjoying it. There's a lot of muscle relaxation that has to go on.
JR: "I think its a great thing that things are more clear whereas, in the US the legality of any online business can be called into question."
Hear hear.
Things are really muddy here in the States - heck, about a lot of stuff.
One of the muddy things is girls who squirt. All of us who do that are "pushing the envelope" here because of the Cambria (I think? can't remember atm) laws. It doesn't necessarily involve a partner, doesn't even necessarily involve penetration. No one is being humiliated. But a man is allowed to ejaculate and a woman is not - it's deemed "obscene". Why?
The law needs to be more clear.
Last edited by Carrie at Feb 19 2004, 01:22 AM
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