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Old 07-10-2003   #1
Marc De
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There are many factors involved in programs paying the high rate per sign up they do now. These factors include

$39.99 monthly charges
2 FREE cross sells per page rebilling at $30 to $40 / mo

there are other factors as well but its these factors in specific I would like to address.

Chargebacks occur for a number of reasons but a lot have to do with very high monthly charges. Obviously these prices bring in more money which allows a much higher payout.

In an effort to reduce chargebacks, free cross sells will become single micro $1 payments that rebill at a much lesser rate. Much more importantly monthly rates must drop from the rate of $39.99 to $29.99

Obviously this will drastically hit the top of line of many sponsors (those who choose to take the path of 'correcting' some of the problems in the industry. Because of this cut in revenue payouts of $35 and $40 per trial will no longer exist (again for that group of sponsors who attempt to make the proper changes)

Payout will drop below the $30 range. Also FREE trials (which ARS recently began offering) will no longer exist. These changes will take place in the coming days.

Webmasters use this post as for warning of things to come.

Sponsors use this post as a support for you to follow the necessary trends to correct an escalating problem over the last few years. Its time to fall in line or its time to fall out!
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Old 07-10-2003   #2
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Well, this thread should become very lively in no time at all!!

Should be an interesting discussion.
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Old 07-10-2003   #3
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Excellent post Marc.
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Old 07-10-2003   #4
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From LAMike on GFY...

Quote:
Due to the new Visa regulations we are forced to make some changes to keep ourselves in line with these new regs and still make a profit to not only insure our longevity but the longevity of the industy as a whole.

In the past as I'm sure most of you know we were aloud to have a 2.5 percent chargeback ratio that has now been changed to 1 percent begining october 1st.

Epoch has in turn made some new regulations that we must follow to and make changes on our end. We will now only be offering 1 easy click on our join pages and there will no longer be free ezclick joins. Not only this but the joins can be charged a maximum of $20 per month.

In order to help reduce chagebacks there will be less opportunities for cross sales and we will lower the monthly charge of $39.28 to our members to $29.28. This change will also have to be passed down in order to conduct some sort of profit.

Silvercash will be lowering payouts within the next week to $25 per join and $30 per join for those sending over a certain amount per period.

Its a time of change and the biggest change this industry has seen to date. I'm sure that other programs will follow as there isnt much alternative
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Old 07-10-2003   #5
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Marc, I agree. Frees are gone, because they do not count as a transaction toward the 1%. Going to see alot more $1 trials. #'s game that can be managed, but going to be tough and some will not make it for sure.

$30 seems to be where people think trials will settle, I am still running #'s. Will also be interesting to see where CCBILL and Jettis stand on these issues and they will soon follow epochs lead and announce changes.
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Old 07-10-2003   #6
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As a webmaster, I certainly don't want to see lower payouts, but as a mortgage holder, I'd rather take lower payouts for a longer period time. Longevity is a good thing.

Good posts from Marc and LAMike.
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Old 07-10-2003   #7
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Free trials have always been a bad idea. They have been abused, as well as the cross sales. We have brought this upon ourselves.

I am very EXCITED about these changes.

One reason PureCash has not launched on time was due to the changes that were coming down. We wanted to make sure that we have the right business model built in, and not try to build on the old model that is being put to sleep.

I think in the long run this will make the industry much more stable. We have enjoyed a drunken orgy of $45 payouts on free trials... reality looks like it is finally setting in.
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Old 07-10-2003   #8
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Question for you guys.....

Having bought
http://www.firmcontent.com

It may be a moronic idea,But what about offering cds or dvds at like 1or 2 bucks to members?
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Old 07-10-2003   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jul 10 2003, 01:32 PM
Question for you guys.....

Having bought
http://www.firmcontent.com

It may be a moronic idea,But what about offering cds or dvds at like 1or 2 bucks to members?
Shipping porn is opening another can of worms.
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Old 07-10-2003   #10
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Nick I was thinking about something similair, but not shipping porn.

Selling something else that is nominal, hat, t-shirt, whatever and with every purchase get a few id/password to a website.

You could do re-occuring and send out new t-shirt, hat, every month.
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Old 07-10-2003   #11
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Oh yeah.(leenogas zip codes etc)

Sorry about that.It was just a mind fart.
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Old 07-10-2003   #12
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Quote:
Selling something else that is nominal, hat, t-shirt, whatever and with every purchase get a few id/password to a website.

You could do re-occuring and send out new t-shirt, hat, every month.
Nice one.

Some light entertainment.....
http://www.ntv.co.jp/channel/kasoh/kin10.html





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Old 07-10-2003   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike AI@Jul 10 2003, 04:54 PM
Nick I was thinking about something similair, but not shipping porn.

Selling something else that is nominal, hat, t-shirt, whatever and with every purchase get a few id/password to a website.

You could do re-occuring and send out new t-shirt, hat, every month.
Or maybe even travel certs?

I have a friend who's getting out of the telemarketing biz who used to offer travel certs as promo incentives.

The travel agencies he worked with practically gave them away to him.

Very low acquisition cost and could be some intersting upsells. (Anyone here a travel agency? ;-))

I know we used to give away Hawaii certs and the owners of the company got kickbacks from travel agents, who in turn got kickbacks from certain hotels and so on.....
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Old 07-10-2003   #14
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what about the free airline tickets that Brad and others used to give away.
how well did that work ???
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Old 07-10-2003   #15
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I also think dialers are going to play a larger future in this business than alot of people think.


Lets also not forget checks.
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Old 07-10-2003   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike AI@Jul 10 2003, 05:54 PM
Selling something else that is nominal, hat, t-shirt, whatever and with every purchase get a few id/password to a website.
Something like voicemail?

http://www.nationwidevoice.com



Quote:
Lets also not forget checks.
Something like ACH Debit?

http://www.achdebit.com

(I'm such a little salesperson.....)
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Old 07-10-2003   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by BradShaw@Jul 10 2003, 05:15 PM
I also think dialers are going to play a larger future in this business than alot of people think.


Lets also not forget checks.
So true If anyone wants to talk about a dialer solution with great rates let me know


just feel like dancing
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Old 07-10-2003   #18
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this could be verry good for live feed sites that can stay below the 1% cb

More money for the surfer to spend on the live girls



Last edited by Forest at Jul 10 2003, 05:50 PM
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Old 07-10-2003   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peaches+Jul 10 2003, 05:20 PM-->
QUOTE (Peaches @ Jul 10 2003, 05:20 PM)
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Old 07-10-2003   #20
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I think on of the first thing we are going to do when the dust settles is look into pushing checks more, checks with cross sells, etc....

Can't imagine a live feed, billed per min. staying under 1%. That should be interesting as well.
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Old 07-10-2003   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Forest@Jul 10 2003, 05:49 PM
this could be verry good for live feed sites that can stay below the 1% cb

More money for the surfer to spend on the live girls
Hey that sound GREAT to me! I sold a 3 HOUR long prvt a couple weeks ago! $539.85 that guy paid! woohoo!

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Old 07-10-2003   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by BradShaw@Jul 10 2003, 06:11 PM
I think on of the first thing we are going to do when the dust settles is look into pushing checks more, checks with cross sells, etc....

Can't imagine a live feed, billed per min. staying under 1%. That should be interesting as well.
Brad, please feel free to contact Bill or myself if you want to discuss this in more depth.

I know Jim and Charles have a good working relationship as well.
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Old 07-10-2003   #23
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interclimax stays below 1%

sabby,

sterling get privates like that once in a while

Got to LOVE the blue guys!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-10-2003   #24
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This particular guy was a 900 user - charged to his phone - not cc. Even better!

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Old 07-10-2003   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sabby@Jul 10 2003, 06:32 PM
This particular guy was a 900 user - charged to his phone - not cc. Even better!

Sabby
sabby

c and the gang are awesome at billing solutions

good for us and our webmasters Huh

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Old 07-10-2003   #26
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Oh hell yeah. I closed my personal site months ago. They get me AND all my traffic now too


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Old 07-10-2003   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sabby@Jul 10 2003, 06:50 PM
Oh hell yeah. I closed my personal site months ago. They get me AND all my traffic now too


Sabby
naked AND smart

Good Combo!!!
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Old 07-10-2003   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by BradShaw@Jul 10 2003, 02:15 PM
I also think dialers are going to play a larger future in this business than alot of people think.


Lets also not forget checks.
Brad checks I agree with but dialers have there own can of worms they are covering from the rest of us.
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Old 07-10-2003   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by BradShaw@Jul 10 2003, 03:11 PM
I think on of the first thing we are going to do when the dust settles is look into pushing checks more, checks with cross sells, etc....

Can't imagine a live feed, billed per min. staying under 1%. That should be interesting as well.
Brad you do know that like 30-50% of checks bounce.

So much fraud in checks makes credit cards look like like a sweet option.

next option? dialers? ya charging the surfer $1.99-$4.99 a minute is gonna last long term.
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Old 07-10-2003   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike AI@Jul 10 2003, 01:26 PM
Free trials have always been a bad idea. They have been abused, as well as the cross sales. We have brought this upon ourselves.

I am very EXCITED about these changes.

One reason PureCash has not launched on time was due to the changes that were coming down. We wanted to make sure that we have the right business model built in, and not try to build on the old model that is being put to sleep.

I think in the long run this will make the industry much more stable. We have enjoyed a drunken orgy of $45 payouts on free trials... reality looks like it is finally setting in.
Free Trials made everyone more money to be able to pay for the new options webmasters get to have now

- Free Host
- Free hosted content
- $35-50 a signup
- etc.

cross sells to a user is not that bad 3-7 days free to check out two more sites, if you know what your doing as a surfer this is actually a sweet bonus.

The problem was that 50% of them never knew they were accepting the cross sell, thus few months later the C word comes.
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Old 07-10-2003   #31
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oooh ya make me feel like dancin YEEEAAAH


big kudos to marc & mike for having the balls to be the first to make this much needed move.

mark this day in the calendar folks!!!
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Old 07-10-2003   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platinum Dave@Jul 10 2003, 08:22 PM
next option? dialers? ya charging the surfer $1.99-$4.99 a minute is gonna last long term.
It does with live feed

but much different with pay sites
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Old 07-10-2003   #33
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Yes. No free trial payments is "very good" for the industry (oh - and also some good for the sponsors). hehe
While we are at it - do you think this change will come along with the end of shaving? (not directed at anyone specific - just as a general "myth" in the industry )
While we are at it, lets make webmasters pay for free hosting, and surfers pay for TGP access

seriously now, exogenous changes to the industry forcefuly requires changes at the sponsor side - granted. But I am sure sponsors will have to "play" some more with the figures before they bravely announce $30->$1 per trial. Webmasters won't like loosing 20-80% of their income and might look for an uneducated and brave high-paying sponsor which will exist for sure (as to how long - I can't tell). This is unless sponsors will accidentaly be aligned about this change as the credit-cards companies are accidently synchronized when changing rates and regulations



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Old 07-10-2003   #34
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Yep Marc. I think that in many ways this is a tough pill to swallow but that in the long term it will ensure the viability of the industry.

I commend every sponsor who lowers payouts.
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Old 07-10-2003   #35
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who's gonna be the first one to remove popunders and let webmasters make more sales ???
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Old 07-10-2003   #36
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Looks like there may be a major redistribution of traffic coming..... especially for programs see this as an opportunity to squeeze a little more out of its webmasters.
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Old 07-10-2003   #37
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Quote:
Free Trials made everyone more money to be able to pay for the new options webmasters get to have now

- Free Host
- Free hosted content
- $35-50 a signup
- etc.
Dave I agree with this, however I think most of these things hurt the industry. We as an industry raised a bunch of whiny, over demanding webmasters who think they are owed all of this. It is time that they go back to doing their own work, getting their own hosts, etc...

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Old 07-10-2003   #38
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Slavik - we could remove our small pop under console but it won't make you any more sales. We tested that long ago before we put it up. In fact, at the end of the day it was worth MORE sales to the webmasters

Better yet, its even less of an issue today with AOL doing almost a PERFECT job to stopping pop ups (as well as google bar and Earthlink).

Monk - this isn't programs trying to 'squeeze' more from its webmasters. Christ, what if I told you programs profit 50% less now than they did 18 months ago and have sat around eating that lost profit. Webmasters have been grossly overpaid for quite sometime now.

Anyways, payout drops are NOT about making 'more money' for the programs themselves, it is used to deflect a decrease in monthly charges (which has been MUCH needed for a while now) from $39.99 to $29.99

Our payout rates will drop 20% or less while our monthly rate will drop 25% Whose 'pay day' is really getting hit here?
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Old 07-10-2003   #39
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Another peice of info - per minute live feed sites truthfully have a zero issue with chargebacks (obviously proper operating conditions must apply). In fact I think a pay as you use paysite product is just the answer we need. *bulb goes off over my head* Oh wait, gimme a couple weeks, thank goodness we've already been in production of this.
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Old 07-10-2003   #40
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Quote:
Monk - this isn't programs trying to 'squeeze' more from its webmasters. Christ, what if I told you programs profit 50% less now than they did 18 months ago and have sat around eating that lost profit. Webmasters have been grossly overpaid for quite sometime now.
AMEN!!!

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Old 07-10-2003   #41
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Originally posted by Platinum Dave+Jul 10 2003, 05:22 PM-->
QUOTE (Platinum Dave @ Jul 10 2003, 05:22 PM)
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Old 07-10-2003   #42
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Jul 10 2003, 10:11 PM
Quote:
Monk - this isn't programs trying to 'squeeze' more from its webmasters. Christ, what if I told you programs profit 50% less now than they did 18 months ago and have sat around eating that lost profit. Webmasters have been grossly overpaid for quite sometime now.
AMEN!!!
I wasn't commenting on ALL sponsors... just that SOME may see it as an opportunity to squeeze extra margin out of their webmasters under the cover of the recent changes.... and that those programs would likely feel the result of that with a smaller portion of the traffic pie than they had before.
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Old 07-11-2003   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike AI@Jul 10 2003, 06:57 PM
Quote:
Free Trials made everyone more money to be able to pay for the new options webmasters get to have now

- Free Host
- Free hosted content
- $35-50 a signup
- etc.
Dave I agree with this, however I think most of these things hurt the industry. We as an industry raised a bunch of whiny, over demanding webmasters who think they are owed all of this. It is time that they go back to doing their own work, getting their own hosts, etc...
I could not agree more!

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Old 07-11-2003   #44
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Originally posted by Toolz+Jul 10 2003, 10:48 PM-->
QUOTE (Toolz @ Jul 10 2003, 10:48 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by -Platinum Dave@Jul 10 2003, 05:22 PM
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Old 07-11-2003   #45
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Old 07-11-2003   #46
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The more i think aboout it the better this becomes for quality live feed companies

our payouts should stay the same, the webmasters make the same money with us, and our customers have more money to burn on the per minute feeds

Looks good all around for us!!!

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Old 07-11-2003   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marc De@Jul 10 2003, 10:11 PM
Another peice of info - per minute live feed sites truthfully have a zero issue with chargebacks (obviously proper operating conditions must apply). In fact I think a pay as you use paysite product is just the answer we need. *bulb goes off over my head* Oh wait, gimme a couple weeks, thank goodness we've already been in production of this.
why am I not surprised marc

You are truly an industry innovator



Last edited by Forest at Jul 11 2003, 05:33 AM
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Old 07-11-2003   #48
Sabby
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Originally posted by Forest@Jul 11 2003, 05:30 AM
The more i think aboout it the better this becomes for quality live feed companies

our payouts should stay the same, the webmasters make the same money with us, and our customers have more money to burn on the per minute feeds

Looks good all around for us!!!
Forest, I had a guy say this the other night in my chat:

"Oh, why did SHE have to be on tonight? I could have just spanked it to porn"

hahaha

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Old 07-11-2003   #49
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Originally posted by Sabby+Jul 11 2003, 05:46 AM-->
QUOTE (Sabby @ Jul 11 2003, 05:46 AM)
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Old 07-11-2003   #50
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Hey how come I never get those guys that just want to chat?


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