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- so AVN buys space at about 75 cents a SF and sells it for $25.00 - now add in the silly amounts and advertising people buy, everything from the badge lanyards to the toilet sanitizer cakes, it there is so much profit for AVN it is beyond silly, so sorry but that dog don't hunt
Stop booking the damn thing right after New Years - it is a pain in the ass - everyone and their brother has too much to do around the holidays as it is.
As much as I love Vegas, it is a stupid location for wanting to get any business done, EVERYONE is more interested in hitting the tables or the nightlife.
No one other than AVN has made any money from the Internext show (except for a few that have won givaways)
Try building an atmosphere more condusive to doing business, and less of people showing off their dick size, or pulling in a porn star to get a bunch of barely out of puberty TGP gallery builders to line up for pictures and the show MIGHT be worth the time.
Originally posted by Bishop@Dec 30 2004, 10:17 AM I'm actually enjoying this thread.. I have always thought that the Vegas show and the Florida show should be swapped. That way we are all in Vegas mid-year when its not chilly. We are in Florida in the winter when its not hot.
Florida space is at a Premium in january
They get is cheap in August at the lowest end of the season
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For me, I have seen such a change in the last 5 years of the shows in Vegas (I will get on to the other shows in a minute). Huge booths with sponsored bars and food areas have been replaced by more circumspect booths and pay your way food and drink. I know that prices of booths have risen steeply, and would like Aly to post booth prices for the last 5 years, and we'll find the rate of inflation increase and see what the disparities are. I imagine it would be quite revealing. Added to that the number of new shows, whose popularity has also increased exponentially, and you have a reason to drop prices not increase them year on year.
We stay in hotels that are more expensive each and every year, prices for entertainment get more and more restrictive, and yet there are less and less sponsored parties. I wonder why, not!
I have hosted parties regularly in both Vegas and Florida for the last few years, and have had booths at previous Vegas shows, but it is becoming a question of catering to the top 5% of companies, and shutting out the remaining companies who simply cannot afford to do 5 shows a year, and sponsor everywhere. The costs are way too restrictive. This is why people are finding more value in smaller shows like the Phoenix Forum, which had way more ROI than any AVN show has in many years.
I would like to see more companies exhibiting, returning to days gone by, and this can only be achieved by allowing more webmasters/small companies attend (reducing badge costs (and maybe moving to a smaller, less expensive hotel, say MGM grand or equivalent)). Having more webmasters mean more reasons to exhibit, and reduced booth costs in essential to entice back more companies to exhibit.
Given that both attendance and exhibiting companies have dropped in recent years, isnt this an obvious supply & demand response?
I respect Aly, and recently was quoted as saying (in response to a question asking who i thought would make a good president of our industry) that she exudes the right balance of business savvy and experience, and obvious diplomacy skills (no doubt why she was hired by AVN) to win over sceptics back to AVN's shows.
I am sure she will read all our thoughts and do what she can, however I see AVN as such a juggernaut that I am one of those sceptics that is sitting on the fence.
Good luck Aly, I truly believe you'll need it. You'll have to work with the few good eggs within AVN (and there are quite a few) and build a collective capable of dynamic change.
Originally posted by Colin@Dec 30 2004, 05:28 AM I don't think it matters what is planned. It only matters who is there. Everyone gets out of it what they want.
earl:
And IMHO, the $200 is NOT out of whack with other shows HOWEVER, it's almost gotten to the point where a showroom floor doesn't even seem to be needed. As HP pointed out, there's not a big amount of "new stuff" that people haven't already heard about. How many deals do you make on the show floor? Mine are all done at the parties, dinners or after the shows.
And my own personal bitchfest Florida in August and ANY SHOW right after the year's major holidays really screws up my mojo! <_<
We paid $5000 for a 10x10 last year, which conflicts with Lee's $3000. So is it that AVN is just sticking it to the new guys, or just non advertisers, or have they actually dropped booth prices this year only to increase attendee fees? I find the costs outrageous and their willingness to please potential exhibitors lax if not non existent. I felt, throughout the entire process, that I was being shafted in more ways than one by my "friendly show rep". Because of this and the terrible ROI of shows, we've not planned to attend any events in 2005. If we do, it will be the smaller, all biz venues. I'm just not willing to let AVN back into my pockets unless I'm to see REAL VALUE.
My suggestions for change, in addition to cost reduction, is similar to others, provide more value in seminars, areas to meet (free of charge, perhaps included with booth rental or ad space) that are rotated by appointment or blocks of time per sponsor/exhibitor, better dates and staff whose goal isn't to nickle and dime and/or bullshit me to my detriment.
Originally posted by gonzo@Dec 29 2004, 05:04 PM Aly asked what folks from Oprano wanted to see changed with the Internext show starting in Florida. So Ive opened this new thread so the discussion can flow and AVN and Aly can have one place to refer to.
My first question is pretty simple.
Why does it cost $200 for a pass to look at exhibits on the show floor?
I do think that there has to be a charge but when you historically look at other shows [yes Mainstream ones] the charge is minimal and the exhibitors are given a slew of passes to give away for free.
You get more bang for your buck by giving the exhibitors more... AVN benefits from the increased show floor traffic, the hotel draws more vistors...etc etc.
Theres an easy one for you Aly.
My two cents:
Internext Florida. I agree with Gonzo. I don't see a need for the price to be so high.
Internext Las Vegas. I do believe the price should stay very high. I oversee several hooker discussion message boards. Many non-industry types make CES Week in Vegas a big trip. Many of these guys think that Internext is a sex show like Fan Day at AEE. AVN should discourage non-industry people from attending Vegas Internext.
Second, why should they be coddled and cuddled? This is a business. I don't seem to recall in 99 that anyone gave me free content, free hosting, pre-made galleries, reward points, instant payouts, payouts attached to a debit card, free trips or badges to Internext, or anything else along those lines.
Corvett mentioned the story of what Kimmy used to do before the internet, and while I'm not going into a long retelling of it, let's just suffice it to say that it was another method of alternative marketing, very much like door to door sales. In the beginning when the industry and the players were new, it was in everyone's best interest to "hire 'em in masses, teach 'em in classes, and kick 'em in the asses" while we were a growing and new sort of deal.
Once we got to the point that we were running ads for national distribution on the inside back covers of magazines like Elle and Vogue, we didn't need the bodies any more to make money. They became a liability, an oversaturation of the market that caused diminishing returns for everyone's ROI.
I have nothing against newbies personally, as a matter of fact, I'm actually working with 3 different ones who might actually make it for a year, I'm just sitting here trying to figure out when the Porn Unification Plan went back into action.
Drav....someone DID pay attention to your East Coast suggestion. This is not all as easy as it looks:-) Finding a hotel to work with is a major chore.
Forget Atlantic City - they have had so much trouble with the past Adult shows held there, that they send you to the Exibition Center (which is not what we do) Several places told me point blank that an Adult show IN the hotel is going to be very pricey. They don't want us....
I did place calls to some prospective hotels in Philly. Thier prices are just out of line and not affordable for the size show we have. For us - there is a lot of risk - Atrition could bankrupt us, if we don't fill their required rooms.
We really enjoyed New Orleans, and had a great show there in June 2000 - but there was a lot of problems with the timing of the AVN show also held in New Orleans that year - and many have a bad taste in their mouth about supporting another show there.
As far has having shows in areas during the ultimate weather conditions..... that is called peak season - it is unaffordable for the trade show company, many of the Adult companies & 70% of the webmasters. We have been fortunate to have pretty good weather conditions, but we use smaller properties.
It is not as easy as it looks. If it appears to be easy - then the company is doing a good job - because I am going on my 10th year - and I am yet to have an easy show. :P
I personally like the fact that attendee cost is what it is. Newbies that are serious about being successful will find a way, but it's enough to keep out the civilians that just want to look, yet have no interest in the biz...
Also, as far as location, I really liked having the show at the Venetian each year, because much less time was wasted trying to figure out where events and such are happening. It was great to be able to tell someone, yea "just meet me where we met last year" or whatever... It might not have been the best vacation seniro, but it was good for getting business done. Plus, it was large enough that anyone that wanted to stay could get a room...
Unlike the upcoming show where people are spread out over the strip... I already damn near need a spreadsheet to keep track of all the different hotels people are staying at that I would like to meet with...
And yes, I know it's a lot tougher than it looks to do these shows. The trouble they are to produce them is appreciated.
That said, still tired of sweating, and still think somewhere in the NE would draw a very large audience for any venue. Not only a lot of webmasters here, but higher per capita and it's only 50 miles between cities, not 500 miles as it is in some parts of the country.
Originally posted by Dravyk@Jan 1 2005, 12:22 PM That said, still tired of sweating, and still think somewhere in the NE would draw a very large audience for any venue. Not only a lot of webmasters here, but higher per capita and it's only 50 miles between cities, not 500 miles as it is in some parts of the country.
I have to agree with you there Dravyk - I skipped the Florida show this year, the first Internext/ia2000 that I'd missed since that Miami one with Netpond - and with the exception of not seeing old friends and touching base with people I only see 2-3x per year - I would say that I really didn't feel like I'd missed anything that was vitally important to business.
I really get much more done at the mid-sized regional shows and at smaller, local gatherings. Now I love Vegas - but that's because we get to drive/not fly and because it's Vegas! I agree with a lot of the posts here - the attraction is not really the actual "show" anymore, but all the things you can DO while networking in Vegas. Heck - we should just have a once-a-year party in Vegas and be done with it. Fly in for a 3-day weekender, have some scheduled parties but then turn everyone loose. I think it might have the same result.
Good thoughts/ideas in this thread - and I have to 2nd Sharpie's and everyone else's comments about not knowing how difficult it is to do one of these things until you've actually done it. Those who can make it look easy are really working their asses off behind the scenes to make it look that way.
My main concern is the power of business shifting from trade floor to off premise or soley networking at the parties and events... Many get the booths because they are AFRAID to take the risk of NOT exhibiting.
Some have decided to for go exhibiting and send a crew to network one one one to get the B2B, and B2C done.
I understand the costs of putting on a show, Sharpie has taught me well for over a decade....
But the price of an attendee ticket has to come down, or some form of payments can be made, and AVN can finance the admission some how...LOL and let webmasters make payments. Let them make payments, or let them set up something a year before the show and let them paypal in towards their ticket, gives them a year to pay in advance..instead of coming up with the money right afer the holidays or before the holidays.
This would also give AVN some operating capital :-)
Or.
Find a way to make a kick back on all parties thrown under your event and use this for profit so that floor tickets are more affordable. Rather you pinch the sponsors that the webmaster.
Foot traffic is key on that floor, and I think the price does not have the value it did when that business model went into effect in 1997.
Just my 2 cents plus prime :-)
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Interesting comments Lee (Noga), about pinching the sponsors. It appears the posts prior to yours were comments made by sponsors about disliking the pinch.
Like AVN, hate AVN, one thing you can say for AVN, their organizational skills are far better than most. Whether you like the Diplomat, hate the Venetian, whatever, things are more professionally put together than most others, from the hotel choices to the show floors. Personally I tend to hate show floors and can't stand having to stay in someone else's idea of a hotel LOL...
Anyone in marketing knows the biggest way to waste a marketing person is to give them booth duty. Rule number one: They have to be free to hit the floor, leave the floor, find the people, do the business.
Booths are 20% branding and 80% for the newbies.
They're not even good for finding people to talk to, since, see rule one above, the people you need to talk to aren't ever at the booth!!
Originally posted by Dravyk@Jan 2 2005, 12:07 AM Anyone in marketing knows the biggest way to waste a marketing person is to give them booth duty. Rule number one: They have to be free to hit the floor, leave the floor, find the people, do the business.
Booths are 20% branding and 80% for the newbies.
They're not even good for finding people to talk to, since, see rule one above, the people you need to talk to aren't ever at the booth!!
Vick, 500% agree with ya!
Excellent points Dravyk!
And you are definitely someone who lives by his own word.... I remember it was HELL trying to get you into the booth back in the day! lol
"Look, there's Dravyk!"
"Uh oh... where'd he go?"
As much as I *hated* working the booth I really DID get to meet a lot of the newbies and get them onto the boards & into the chats/radio shows... so I guess booth-duty depends upon what your business is all about. If noobs are what you want, the booth is a good place to be. I know I *did* miss a lot by being chained to the booths though so I am much happier going booth-less this time around.
Booth duty is a waste of time, imo. If you are stuck in your booth and other people you need to talk to are stuck in their booths, how the hell do you ever talk about the things you need to? And it's pretty well impossible to have a private conversation in a booth, no matter how big it is.
Okay, I will address all of these posts very shortly. Just got off the show floor and wanted to see how this thread had come along but need to get my frazzled brain back in order before tackling all of this.
I now have a list of improvements and suggestions for both Internext shows that rivals 'War and Peace' in size. I want to take this opportunity to thank all the people at the show who took the time to share their thoughts with me.
The one issue that jumps out immediately after re-reading this thread is the one of location and date... Vegas in early January, (which I believe Dravyk initially raised). The idea behind the date and location is to have Internext, AEE (AVN) and CES (Consumer Electronics Show) coincide somewhat. It's generally believed that many attendees and exhibitors at each of these shows benefit from keeping these shows together. I dislike the timing, too, but I definitely understand that logic. What do you think?
I'll be back with more to say here very soon!
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Hire Check in people that have actually seen a computer before, If I had paid to exhibit I would have been furious looking at the huge line of people still standing at 3:00 in the afternoon. Better Yet - mail the badges to the people that pre register and have an Express ID check for them.
The hotel rooms people are staying in should be off limits, I am sick of having crap hung on my door, left in my room, or getting messages from the front desk that they have "a package" for me. As a side note to all of you people that do this, I make it a point to NOT use products / services of companies that do not respect my private space. While I am at a show - the room I am in is my home - I do not want things in my home that I do not ask for, If I want it I will pick it up at your booth.
Me too just got back from the show. Was fun to see old friends & make new ones. I must say I got good results from this show. But it was more because of personal relationships than the showfloor.
few suggestions:
- The hotel Mandalay bay was charging crazy roomrates if you compare them to Venetian Prices and service. I stayed in a nice suite in the Venetian because of the better service. Many complaints from people I spoke too about mandalay.
- after show meeting point would be nice.
- rollerskates, little cars or anything what would get me to the show without killing my feet...The distance to the showfloor was too far...
- I also saw people standing in line to get their show pass way too long and why the hell you need to give your ID ? I got someone from the organisation to bring me my pass (thank you again you know who you are !) but was not very happy to give out my passport for making a copy..(maybe a new law?)
- Smoking room at the show floor would be nice for thre addicts! LOL
- More nice Girls ! I remember a lot more girls on previous shows! They bring atmoshere to the show !
- seminar suggestion: why not give all exhibitors a chance to speak about their business and have visitors asking questions to them.
- for example: all content providers get X minutes to present their products and afterwarts the visitors can ask questions. Same for billing solutions etc..
- Just combine the AVN and internext on the same dates. 5 or 6 days of exhibition is way too long I think.
almost rested up after the show...
I was offline because the cable connection in my room didn't work...ah well...
outside of that, I enjoyed the hotel...we stayed at THEhotel@Mandalay bay and the rooms were amazing.
While some people complained of not being able to get a room there, we had no problems (maybe because we registered through their website?).
The registration was definately a clusterfuck of epic proportions (anyone who tried to find me and couldn't, it was because I wasn't even really on the floor until late the second day).
We had a decent show, the results of which we won't realistically be able to measure until after everyone has gotten back home and caught up on things discussed.
Speaking of which, I now have to catch up on emails, ICQ's and other assorted aftershow "fun".
Originally posted by Dravyk@Dec 29 2004, 09:42 PM I metioned this in another thread, then saw this one. Gonzo and I agree I should place it here as well. To save space I'll make it smaller.
Quote:
Eeeesh. 2000% humidity and hurricane threats.
I know there's a lot of good folks in FA who only (and who can blame them?!) attend these shows, and for missing those good folks, well, that is indeed a big regret -- but I don't think I'll be going to those anymore. Miami in March or November, hell yeah!. August? Fuhgetaboudit! Yes, fine, I'm a wuss.
Especially with the increase in importance and in attendance at the Phoenix and San Diego events in moderate climates at normal times of the year, I just see no point in the summer sweat show anymore.
Not enough ROI there for me to spend one week a year: impersonating a bag of boiling peas, see who pissed on the lastest boat, who broke the glass atrium this time, and purchase a bunch of $20 drinks with no alcohol in them.
In short, how about somewhere normal and affordable for the second show? They obviously did it in San Diego and Phoenix and even in Montreal. Why a sauna every year? Again, can't be expense when others can do it. That's my gripe.
Ok, that, and that the NorthEast part of the country is constantly disregarded. Two gripes ... er, um, constructive suggestions.
I did have a chance to talk to Aly on the show floor. She pledges to come back round here after the show to handle the decompression as well. She is very sincere about trying to make a difference and says not for anyone to hold any punches.
Ill have mor thoughts in the morning.
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Originally posted by OldJeff@Jan 7 2005, 09:43 AM Back from the show
Here is a couple more suggestions.
Hire Check in people that have actually seen a computer before, If I had paid to exhibit I would have been furious looking at the huge line of people still standing at 3:00 in the afternoon. Better Yet - mail the badges to the people that pre register and have an Express ID check for them.
The hotel rooms people are staying in should be off limits, I am sick of having crap hung on my door, left in my room, or getting messages from the front desk that they have "a package" for me. As a side note to all of you people that do this, I make it a point to NOT use products / services of companies that do not respect my private space. While I am at a show - the room I am in is my home - I do not want things in my home that I do not ask for, If I want it I will pick it up at your booth.
will add more as they come to me
A-fucking-men to both of those! That line was just bizarre.
Also wanted to echo Claudia's complaints about MB (and how the hell did I miss you??!! ). The lack of mini-bar and coffee maker was just silly and we paid the same rates as the Venetian with the two rooms.
Let me start by saying I have never been to internext. I suppose the reason why should be of some interest. There is no business for me to do there, so I spend my capital on stuff that makes me money. Having said that, I have been to many trade shows like the IBC which I believe is now held in Amsterdam but used to be held in Bristol as well to NAB which is the biggest in the world. I am the veteran of a few other trade shows outside of my industry for other reasons. But they all have one thing in common. They launch new products before the public gets to see them. They take orders for new products so the first adopters can get out there and make some money. In other words they provide a sneak peak into the future and give the participants a leg up on their competitors. They spend huge amounts on their displays and attract an audience with their companies chequebooks in their hip pockets.
I don't see any of this happening at internext. For instance, I have just jumped feet first into the world of high definition video production. Now it may have been at internext, but I didn't see anything about it. If you are going to be a player in the video game, this is the most important technology at the moment. Internext should have been all over this. I might have even gone for that very reason. Editing solutions, monitor solutions, transcoding solutions. The list goes on.
Another generation of affiliate programmes is nothing new as far as I can see. My suggestion is to make the show a little more technical to show the way to those who actually produce content. The old days of content trade parties where everyone and their dog has the same hotel room pictures for months after internext are hopefully over. I can't see that making money any more.
Personally, I feel that less emphasis on the Cristal and more emphasis on worthwhile money makers would go a long way to resparking interest in these gatherings.
Ya gotta make money before you can spend it, and a lot of folks are not achieving what they had hoped and are not about to drop 6k to hit vegas for a couple of free drinks and a few good stories.
I mean this post in all sincerity and hopefully you will find some of the suggestions worth considering.
Originally posted by rhymer11@Jan 8 2005, 04:15 PM Let me start by saying I have never been to internext. I suppose the reason why should be of some interest. There is no business for me to do there, so I spend my capital on stuff that makes me money. Having said that, I have been to many trade shows like the IBC which I believe is now held in Amsterdam but used to be held in Bristol as well to NAB which is the biggest in the world. I am the veteran of a few other trade shows outside of my industry for other reasons. But they all have one thing in common. They launch new products before the public gets to see them. They take orders for new products so the first adopters can get out there and make some money. In other words they provide a sneak peak into the future and give the participants a leg up on their competitors. They spend huge amounts on their displays and attract an audience with their companies chequebooks in their hip pockets.
I don't see any of this happening at internext. For instance, I have just jumped feet first into the world of high definition video production. Now it may have been at internext, but I didn't see anything about it. If you are going to be a player in the video game, this is the most important technology at the moment. Internext should have been all over this. I might have even gone for that very reason. Editing solutions, monitor solutions, transcoding solutions. The list goes on.
Another generation of affiliate programmes is nothing new as far as I can see. My suggestion is to make the show a little more technical to show the way to those who actually produce content. The old days of content trade parties where everyone and their dog has the same hotel room pictures for months after internext are hopefully over. I can't see that making money any more.
Personally, I feel that less emphasis on the Cristal and more emphasis on worthwhile money makers would go a long way to resparking interest in these gatherings.
Ya gotta make money before you can spend it, and a lot of folks are not achieving what they had hoped and are not about to drop 6k to hit vegas for a couple of free drinks and a few good stories.
I mean this post in all sincerity and hopefully you will find some of the suggestions worth considering.
I'm goiung to hate admitting this, but I agree with you on a lot of that. A lot of things that SHOULD have been there, weren't...they were/are at CES though.
The way I see it, they'd rather let these types of companies exhibit at CES, which is right next door to the AVN video show and don't give a shit enough about us Internet guys to ramp up their sales force to get some of these types of companies to exhibit at the InterNext show.
Those of us who've been in the business long enough are bored of the "rock star life" and just want to solidify existing relationships and maybe meet some new people face to face...and probably won't be paying $200 per ticket for that experience again, especially when I had more business-related discussions sittng in the lbooy out in front of the registration area...that's where the business talk was (or seemed to be)....
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Jan 8 2005, 02:37 PM Those of us who've been in the business long enough are bored of the "rock star life" and just want to solidify existing relationships and maybe meet some new people face to face...and probably won't be paying $200 per ticket for that experience again, especially when I had more business-related discussions sittng in the lbooy out in front of the registration area...that's where the business talk was (or seemed to be)....
Well said.
I heard a version of this from just about every person I spoke with at the show.
I managed to stay a lot busier this time than any show previous as is probably evidenced by the fact I'm just now posting. Computer was with me, had high speed, but barely had time to do a few quick email checks to make sure everything was running well at home.
But I definitely have some comments...
--Registration line: It was disorganized the day before the show started with both lines combined into what should've been the exit line while the queue lines were empty. No one bothered to come out and put up some signage or direct traffic to fix it. So it's no surprise that on the first day it was a full on goat fuck.
--Center bar: It's a well known fact that no matter what kind or size show you have in this industry, where everyone really goes to meet up after show hours is the "center bar" in the main hotel. It'll be packed to the point you cant move. That's all well and good, but it would be nice if someone would clue in the hotel management that we aren't there to dance and have the live entertainment take a couple of nights off so we can hear ourselves talk and use the band's space for a few more people.
--Location: Mixed feelings. On one hand it's the far end of the strip and a step down to 4 diamond from 5 diamond at the Venetian at the same cost. But there's convenient accomodations at different price ranges available nearby. We were able to locate FFN Central in the Pharoah Suite at the Luxor and found it fairly convenient with Mandalay being a short walk away via the Mandalay Place mall.
--Dates: Let's be real, bumping up against AVN Awards and CES is convenient for AVN and a handful of big name video performers....not the webmasters and web industry. I would say at least 95% are there ONLY for internext. It sucks being so close to the holidays. And when New Years dictates that we overlap the start of CES as it did this year, Thursday just absolutely fucking sucks. The town is packed, you cant get into anything, cab lines are insane, room rates are thru the roof, and ask for something like a late check out and the front desk just might flip you off.
--Show floor: I doubt I spent 2 hours total on the show floor. And I actually had a shopping list this year. Of the people I really needed/wanted to see for business purposes, I found exactly 3 of them on the floor. I dont need a flashy booth or booth bunnies. I dont particularly want tote your literature. What I want to do is ask some questions, get some quotes, maybe a business card with a working email/icq. Main purpose show floor seemed to serve this year is the place to go to pickup your passes for parties and other events.
--Overall: There needs to be some sort of format change that will allow you to find who you need to find and have quiet discussions without chaining people to booths. Maybe it is something as simple as an electronic registry with a list of 3 or 4 meeting points and let attendees and vendors alike pencil in a few hours were they'll be in one of these spots.
12-30-2004
earl:
Florida in August and ANY SHOW right after the year's major holidays really screws up my mojo! <_<
))
). The lack of mini-bar and coffee maker was just silly and we paid the same rates as the Venetian with the two rooms.
I just have to fly out than for a next show !
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