Are Trade Shows a thing of the past?

[RawAlex]

Just checked the AVN sites, nothing past this last show. Las Vegas is still 2009.

I don't remember if I mentioned, but I got hit up already about a month ago to buy a "cheaper" pre-registration badge for AEE. I would find it interesting that AEE is already taking registrations and yet the web show that runs at almost the same time is nowhere to be seen.

Perhaps AVN and XBiz has deep in negotiations right now. Secrets, you know?

[JFK]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Just checked the AVN sites, nothing past this last show. Las Vegas is still 2009.

I don't remember if I mentioned, but I got hit up already about a month ago to buy a "cheaper" pre-registration badge for AEE. I would find it interesting that AEE is already taking registrations and yet the web show that runs at almost the same time is nowhere to be seen.

Perhaps AVN and XBiz has deep in negotiations right now. Secrets, you know?

just an fyi, AEE is not run by AVN, its licensed out

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by JFK

just an fyi, AEE is not run by AVN, its licensed out

Thus explaining the difference and why they can't seem to get A and B together in one place. Perhaps the people running AEE would like to run a webmaster show for the 2 days before AEE opens?

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Look, I appreciate your opinion, but I just can't agree. I've never heard of a trade show put on "Not for profit." Sounds more like you are having "a meeting." Or maybe a sewing group?
You could put your own show/summit, on maybe?

And hell yes, it's about a bigger piece of pie. And I DON'T agree with you on "Shrinking pie." Maybe from your seat?

The adult industry has STEADILY grown since the mid 80's when I started in in it?

And you want to know about something new...something that "grows the pie?"
What the hell have I been doing for the past 9 years?
I invented the Virtual Sex Machine, and created an enitrely NEW channel to RESELL the "Pie" (Content...new or old, is NEW to the VR market,) in.
Don't blame me if some people can't see it. "Others" seem to get it as we are now beginning to see "Knock offs," or put more kindly for the benefit of others here, "similar players in the VR field."

I think you're missing my points here...

"Not for profit" on a show...of course the idea is to make money, but the money isn't coming from attendee badges, exhibitor fees, sponsorships, advertising, etc as is the typical model. What I'm referring to are things like the shows Oracle or SAP do.

They MAY or may not make a profit off the show itself, that's incidental. What they're looking to do is see all of their customers and business partners grow and thus buy more of their core product. They're in business to make money off their core products not shows.

As for the shrinking pie...anyone really think there's as much money coming into the adult web in 2009 as there was in say 2002? I think page views, users and every other metric are up....they're WAY up, but we're giving a lot away.

DEMAND for our product is high as ever. ACCESSIBILITY and ease of distribution, also better than it's ever been. People have privacy, convenience, easy of use, and heck with today's cable modem speeds quality of the streams is getting better all the time.

But for reasons we're all aware of, it's harder and harder to get a user to trust us with their credit card number. The people who should be our best customers, the guys who have disposable income and are free with their credit card get taught a lesson as soon as they happen across the wrong site. Unfortunately this doesn't take long.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

I think you're missing my points here...

"Not for profit" on a show...of course the idea is to make money, but the money isn't coming from attendee badges, exhibitor fees, sponsorships, advertising, etc as is the typical model. What I'm referring to are things like the shows Oracle or SAP do.

They MAY or may not make a profit off the show itself, that's incidental. What they're looking to do is see all of their customers and business partners grow and thus buy more of their core product. They're in business to make money off their core products not shows.

As for the shrinking pie...anyone really think there's as much money coming into the adult web in 2009 as there was in say 2002? I think page views, users and every other metric are up....they're WAY up, but we're giving a lot away.

DEMAND for our product is high as ever. ACCESSIBILITY and ease of distribution, also better than it's ever been. People have privacy, convenience, easy of use, and heck with today's cable modem speeds quality of the streams is getting better all the time.

But for reasons we're all aware of, it's harder and harder to get a user to trust us with their credit card number. The people who should be our best customers, the guys who have disposable income and are free with their credit card get taught a lesson as soon as they happen across the wrong site. Unfortunately this doesn't take long.

Again...we'll have to agree to disagree on the show thing.
I think $200 entrance is too high, but i don't have a problem with some kind of "gate fee" to keep the squirrels out.

As for the industry....hey, the industry did it to itself.
Again, I refer to the article I wrote back in 2001, (And being the arrogant bastard I am, saying I told you so.)

AVN Article- ...Sleeping Sex Industry

And all those scam games, people played, hurt us all. Fortunately, we ship a durable good, with a signature, so we don't have those same kind of problems. Our customer feel a bit better knowing they'll get a box fro the UPS man, or they could do a charge back. We have no problem with that.

For the decent folk, like most here, I feel bad they have to put up with this crap. Many of the people here have been around for years, like me. For the scammers, I have NO pity. I hope they fry for what they've done to us all. (See the august talk back in XBiz (Print) magazine for my VERY open opinion on THAT.)

[tony404]

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by tony404

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

HEARD THAT!

So, what's the deal.....you buying an ice cube tray?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by tony404

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

I think in some ways it comes from a two-fold problem for adult conventions.

The first year in Florida, it wasn't specifically a "whole hotel" takeover, which lead to some situations, particuarly on the first and last day of the show. So one of the issues is that Internext is forced to pretty much assure the hotel of a complete sellout. So room rates are calculated to make sure that AVN isn't underwater even if only 75% of the rooms sell.

Now, as for comparing the westin to the diplomat, I just checked Expedia for rates (in canadian dollars) for next month for 5 days. Diplomat, cheap room is $301 a night, westin is $110. So on that scale, (almost 3 times) the room rates for Internext are actually in keeping with the relative room rates in Florida.

When Internext signed the long term agreements, they were selling out the show, offloading people to the hotel by the golf course, and even pointing people to cheaper properties in the area. The show was a massive oversold deal that had no chance of failure in the near future. However, the 2009 summer show was very lightly attended (you could book a standard room the morning of the show), and images from the show indicate that the crowd was very light. I remember when the showroom floor upstairs was filled, the pool bar was crowded, and basically the property was swarming with people. This last show honestly looked like less than half that crowd, and without a show floor, much of the game is given over to social rather than more organized events.

So the prices of the hotel rooms are in line, but perhaps at this point the property is well beyond what the vast majority of people are willing to pay. The Playahs (including the Iporn people, I gather) can afford to pay the price, but the average webmaster and small program owner will have a very hard time to justify paying out a couple of thousand dollars, only to end up in a place where they can't find anyone they really would like to meet, because there is no show floor, no real events, and just people wandering around in bathing suits getting drunk.

With AVN Chris out the door, perhaps someone can give this show (and vegas) a serious, sober second thought and come up with a show that is more conducive to getting business done.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

I think in some ways it comes from a two-fold problem for adult conventions.

The first year in Florida, it wasn't specifically a "whole hotel" takeover, which lead to some situations, particuarly on the first and last day of the show. So one of the issues is that Internext is forced to pretty much assure the hotel of a complete sellout. So room rates are calculated to make sure that AVN isn't underwater even if only 75% of the rooms sell.

Now, as for comparing the westin to the diplomat, I just checked Expedia for rates (in canadian dollars) for next month for 5 days. Diplomat, cheap room is $301 a night, westin is $110. So on that scale, (almost 3 times) the room rates for Internext are actually in keeping with the relative room rates in Florida.

When Internext signed the long term agreements, they were selling out the show, offloading people to the hotel by the golf course, and even pointing people to cheaper properties in the area. The show was a massive oversold deal that had no chance of failure in the near future. However, the 2009 summer show was very lightly attended (you could book a standard room the morning of the show), and images from the show indicate that the crowd was very light. I remember when the showroom floor upstairs was filled, the pool bar was crowded, and basically the property was swarming with people. This last show honestly looked like less than half that crowd, and without a show floor, much of the game is given over to social rather than more organized events. and as far as vegas I dont think it has really sunk in for them. Chris was talking how vegas will be the biggest show ever. its like wake up those days are over.

So the prices of the hotel rooms are in line, but perhaps at this point the property is well beyond what the vast majority of people are willing to pay. The Playahs (including the Iporn people, I gather) can afford to pay the price, but the average webmaster and small program owner will have a very hard time to justify paying out a couple of thousand dollars, only to end up in a place where they can't find anyone they really would like to meet, because there is no show floor, no real events, and just people wandering around in bathing suits getting drunk.

With AVN Chris out the door, perhaps someone can give this show (and vegas) a serious, sober second thought and come up with a show that is more conducive to getting business done.

Good points.Also why do they have to take over a whole hotel? Is it really necessary to have half naked models running around, like we dont look at this enough all day long. its like they all wanted to be rock stars and the shows are the excuse. It shouldnt be about being rockstars it should be about being business people. The shows are really like a shining example of whats wrong with adult. Its all on flash and the quick buck and being a pimp no substance or longterm viability.I read on the jungle someone saying vegas will be the biggest show ever its like wake the fuck up those days are over.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by tony404

Good points.Also why do they have to take over a whole hotel? Is it really necessary to have half naked models running around, like we dont look at this enough all day long. its like they all wanted to be rock stars and the shows are the excuse. It shouldnt be about being rockstars it should be about being business people. The shows are really like a shining example of whats wrong with adult. Its all on flash and the quick buck and being a pimp no substance or longterm viability.I read on the jungle someone saying vegas will be the biggest show ever its like wake the fuck up those days are over.

Geeez.....let's not go all "doom & Gloom" here.....
I'm not staring at the bottom of the bottle.
They said the same bullshit in the late 80's after the meese commission. So please, don't be surprised when I don't start lamenting the failure of the adult industry.

I'm not saying there isn't going to be a weed out of the slackers......but sex isn't going anywhere. And selling it is only getting better, and more widespread.

Hell, I remember the days when we worried everyday the cops were gonna bust one of my stores for the "back room." They picked at random. Got a store about 3 miles down the road from me. Too close for comfort.

When was the last time they busted a video store?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by tony404

Good points.Also why do they have to take over a whole hotel? Is it really necessary to have half naked models running around, like we dont look at this enough all day long. its like they all wanted to be rock stars and the shows are the excuse. It shouldnt be about being rockstars it should be about being business people. The shows are really like a shining example of whats wrong with adult. Its all on flash and the quick buck and being a pimp no substance or longterm viability.I read on the jungle someone saying vegas will be the biggest show ever its like wake the fuck up those days are over.

Alas, one of the problems of these shows is that people apparently can't control themselves, and as a result, "public nudity" is a real issue. It does come a bit from the young guys, ton of money thing, it also comes from a number of people in the business who honestly couldn't get laid in a whore house with a fist full of hundreds.

More than anything, it's because the conventions stopped being conventions, and started being all about the parties, the drunken adventures, etc. The first few years of IA / Internext (florida and vegas) the program owners and principal players spend their days on the show floors, had dinner with a couple of friends, and attended the cocktails. By 2004 or so, the program owners were nowhere to be found, often partying all night and then disappearing all day, running their own parties offsite, many of them not even bothering to get show badges. The show floor in Vegas now is a joke, and in Florida, it is gone entirely. Based on the reports I got, it was almost useless in Florida this time to try to find many people before 3 or 4 in the afternoon. That isn't conducive to doing business.

I think it comes down to this: Few of the players really want to talk business with anyone except their bros, because they are using dishonest business methods, shaving, cross sales, spamming, dishonest advertising, and many, many other sneaking and shitty things to make a living, so they are working on the "down low" of porn marketing. They don't want to talk to anyone that might actually ask them what the fuck they are doing. So instead, they come to the shows, hide out with their bros, take lots of pictures, and act like they met everyone. It's PR at it's very worst.

AVN shows are like the Zoo at this point - both seriously lacking in webmasters, and seriously lacking in any true relationship to the adult industry.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

I think it comes down to this: Few of the players really want to talk business with anyone except their bros, because they are using dishonest business methods, shaving, cross sales, spamming, dishonest advertising, and many, many other sneaking and shitty things to make a living, so they are working on the "down low" of porn marketing. They don't want to talk to anyone that might actually ask them what the fuck they are doing. So instead, they come to the shows, hide out with their bros, take lots of pictures, and act like they met everyone. It's PR at it's very worst.

AVN shows are like the Zoo at this point - both seriously lacking in webmasters, and seriously lacking in any true relationship to the adult industry.

Alec.... Jay heres a void for both of you guys to step up to with your shows. Step up to the mike... Chris is off with SE Guru playing spin the needle.

Your turn on the mic.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by tony404

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

who is sponsoring the urinals?

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

who is sponsoring the urinals?

Whos spondoring the toilet paper in the rooms so we can get ass cancer from the ink?

[miz_wright]

Believe it or not, I have breakfast meetings at every show. I tend to set up my major meetings between 8 am and 11 am with add-ons throughout the rest of the day.

Sure there are people who will treat it like a vacation or not get up til 3 pm or act like "ballas" -- I don't think the problem is endemic to the shows - AVN and xBiz have provided what has been asked for (who's heard all the bitching when there aren't "enough" parties? *raises hand*). I think the biggest problem is that people stopped being as hungry, and the show putter-onners are convenient scapegoats.

There's still a shit tonne of business to be done at a show, if one is hungry and looks for it.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by LizAEBN

There's still a shit tonne of business to be done at a show, if one is hungry and looks for it.

The same can be said for any situation, online, on the phone, whatever.

However, shows are suppose to (IMHO) serve up that business pretty much right in front of you, and take steps to make it possible for you to actually do business. Cybernet in it's current form does a good job with things like Corridor Cruising, and other events have speed networking or other events that promote meeting new people.

What really always makes me laugh is after a show, you say "Gee, I never saw (insert playah name here) at the show", and then a few days later they are on the Zoo posting all their "show" pictures. When you look at the pictures, you realize they really weren't at the show, they just happened to be in the same city (and same hotel) as the show at the same time. Most of their pics are private parties, limo shots, nightclub VIPs, drunken shots by the pool at 4am, etc. Most of them never have a single actual "at the show" picture, except perhaps poolside in Florida grabbing some chick's ass.

So even if you wanted to do business with these people, meet them, discussion whatever, it is impossible. At best, you get a "rep" that has no authority to do anything, often has little true knowledge of the product, and certainly can't trade traffic, links, or whatever of their own accord. I would have better luck reaching the "playah" via email or ICQ than I would being at the show.

In the end, the shows fail because parties are nice, but they are hard to bottom line justify.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by LizAEBN

Believe it or not, I have breakfast meetings at every show. I tend to set up my major meetings between 8 am and 11 am with add-ons throughout the rest of the day.

.

Yea.....vacation or not, I'm not doing business meetings at 8am in the morning.
I'm in the Adult business.

3am? No problem
6am? No problem, (but I'm starting to get fuzzy.......)

7am-noon- you are talking to yourself


Unless of course, I travel to the west coast....then I can function on the "normal" (And who decided that anyhow?) business hours.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by LizAEBN

Believe it or not, I have breakfast meetings at every show. I tend to set up my major meetings between 8 am and 11 am with add-ons throughout the rest of the day.

Sure there are people who will treat it like a vacation or not get up til 3 pm or act like "ballas" -- I don't think the problem is endemic to the shows - AVN and xBiz have provided what has been asked for (who's heard all the bitching when there aren't "enough" parties? *raises hand*). I think the biggest problem is that people stopped being as hungry, and the show putter-onners are convenient scapegoats.

There's still a shit tonne of business to be done at a show, if one is hungry and looks for it.

When you think about it. Its so not cost effective to have to go to shows to have meetings that could be handled on phone or internet. Its not like your repping a company thats new. AEBN is the biggest at what they do. So its not like you are going to run into someone who doesnt know who your company is and works in adult. And if they dont know chances are they have no traffic and are worthless.

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Yea.....vacation or not, I'm not doing business meetings at 8am in the morning.
I'm in the Adult business.

3am? No problem
6am? No problem, (but I'm starting to get fuzzy.......)

7am-noon- you are talking to yourself


Unless of course, I travel to the west coast....then I can function on the "normal" (And who decided that anyhow?) business hours.

And, being self-employed, that is your prerogative. I fond those to be very productive hours for me. On the other hand, I am kind of known for being the crazy-needs-no-sleep woman, 'cos I am generally up by 6.30 am to attend office business and going to sleep around 4 am.

Originally Posted by tony404

When you think about it. Its so not cost effective to have to go to shows to have meetings that could be handled on phone or internet. Its not like your repping a company thats new. AEBN is the biggest at what they do. So its not like you are going to run into someone who doesnt know who your company is and works in adult. And if they dont know chances are they have no traffic and are worthless.

Tony - thank you for the kind words about the company. I will freely admit I run into people who have no idea who we are with some regularity. And some of those end up being incredibly valuable contacts *shrug*

[Toby]

Tony, I have to disagree. There are just some things that are more effectively handled face to face where each person can see the facial expressions, body language etc. of the person they're talking with. Also, there are things that are said face to face that just wouldn't be mentioned via email, ICQ or over the phone. Maybe I'm a bit old school in this regard, but being able to look someone in the eye as you shake their hand goes a long way to establishing a trust factor.

In my case, as strictly an affiliate webmaster, being at the shows demonstrates I'm not some surfmaster wannabe living in Mom's basement doing this on the side.

Also, as I've mentioned in the past. Shows for me isn't strictly about doing business. I also get some new perspectives and some fresh ideas just from the interaction with others that you just don't get from boards or other online communication.

You really should watch Liz work a show just once. She'll talk to more people before lunch on the first day than I will during the whole show. If she didn't bring in enough new and additional business to justify the cost of sending her to shows I'm sure AEBN would have stopped sending her ages ago. They've never been one of those companies that toss money around wildly just to make a splash.

[donnylong]

Trade Shows = whore, hookers, beer and whores, hookers and beer

[Cleo]

Originally Posted by donnylong

Trade Shows = whore, hookers, beer and whores, hookers and beer

And there is the problem.

Oddly I have no interest in hookers, whores or beer.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by Toby

Tony, I have to disagree. There are just some things that are more effectively handled face to face where each person can see the facial expressions, body language etc. of the person they're talking with. Also, there are things that are said face to face that just wouldn't be mentioned via email, ICQ or over the phone. Maybe I'm a bit old school in this regard, but being able to look someone in the eye as you shake their hand goes a long way to establishing a trust factor.

In my case, as strictly an affiliate webmaster, being at the shows demonstrates I'm not some surfmaster wannabe living in Mom's basement doing this on the side.

Also, as I've mentioned in the past. Shows for me isn't strictly about doing business. I also get some new perspectives and some fresh ideas just from the interaction with others that you just don't get from boards or other online communication.

You really should watch Liz work a show just once. She'll talk to more people before lunch on the first day than I will during the whole show. If she didn't bring in enough new and additional business to justify the cost of sending her to shows I'm sure AEBN would have stopped sending her ages ago. They've never been one of those companies that toss money around wildly just to make a splash.

I placed boardroom level executives as a head hunter and never met anyone it was all on the phone. One of my biggest clients who paid over $100k in fees to this day I dont know what he looks like. and I found him making cold calls from a directory.I can tell you about face to face at webmaster access atl the ceo ibill shook my hand and looked me straight in the eye and told me I was with a winner.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by tony404

......I can tell you about face to face at webmaster access atl the ceo ibill shook my hand and looked me straight in the eye and told me I was with a winner.

And you were.....He won all the marbles, then ran off with them and started an IPTV company that disappeared as quickly as it showed up.