Why I Won't Support Max Hardcore (I Hate Liberty)

[buzzsaw]

Well, not exactly. But you won’t catch me standing behind Max Hardcore and waving a big American flag while he’s being prosecuted on federal obscenity charges, either. First of all, before I say anything else at all, I’d like to say this. I believe that so long as Max Hardcore, Max Steiner, Paul Little, whatever the fuck his name is, makes movies using consenting adults of sound mind and free of coercion, he should be able to do so even if those same movies are disgustin...

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[gonzo]

Is it just me or is anyone else tired of seeing Max parade his Asian model around every year in Miami?

First a nude photoshoot in the resturant. [Thanks for cutting in line and swiping my table white trash.]

And then the classless crawl thru the "Wiseman" Water Sculpture showcasing the cigarette burns on her ass.

Let me guess when does the "Save Max Hardcore" donation fund start?

Scooter Im with you.

Max doesnt shoot porn.

[Jace]

max should be allowed to shoot whatever he wants as long as all parties involved are consenting and know what they are getting into

BUT

I have been around Max while he is sitting in Jim Souths officec recruiting girls.....in fact a certain woman that I see quite frequently was offered a job by Max....and NOT ONCE was his style brought up, not once was his degradation brought up

Jim South had to pull my wife aside and explain what Max Hardcore was about, Max never made that effort

so, no matter what anyone tells you, no matter what is rumored, I personally don't think Max always makes it a priority to explain to the girls he hires what they are in for...and like my wife did on her first shoot, some girls just end up thinking what he does goes with the porn territory, and they take it because he pays so well

[softball]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Is it just me or is anyone else tired of seeing Max parade his Asian model around every year in Miami?

First a nude photoshoot in the resturant. [Thanks for cutting in line and swiping my table white trash.]

And then the classless crawl thru the "Wiseman" Water Sculpture showcasing the cigarette burns on her ass.

Let me guess when does the "Save Max Hardcore" donation fund start?

Scooter Im with you.

Max doesnt shoot porn.

come on Gonzo, you have had this ray gun banner up forever. That is the biggest pile of shit going. He was never charged for shooting porn movies. He was charged for hiring girls, telling them they were going to be on the net,and having his crew fuck them. Not what we do. Now you are dissing Max Hardcore. Personally I think they both suck the big one and they are not in my business. Either take down the ray gun banner or support max. Up to you.

[Hell Puppy]

There are plenty of canaries to replace him....flush him.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

come on Gonzo, you have had this ray gun banner up forever. That is the biggest pile of shit going. He was never charged for shooting porn movies. He was charged for hiring girls, telling them they were going to be on the net,and having his crew fuck them. Not what we do. Now you are dissing Max Hardcore. Personally I think they both suck the big one and they are not in my business. Either take down the ray gun banner or support max. Up to you.

I have to give you your due. When you put your foot in it, you really do a first rate job.

I'll offer just one small bit of advice, don't open your mouth to just change feet.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

come on Gonzo, you have had this ray gun banner up forever. That is the biggest pile of shit going. He was never charged for shooting porn movies. He was charged for hiring girls, telling them they were going to be on the net,and having his crew fuck them. Not what we do. Now you are dissing Max Hardcore. Personally I think they both suck the big one and they are not in my business. Either take down the ray gun banner or support max. Up to you.

That case hasnt been proven and the banner is up to help out Jim Manley not Ray Guhn. Ray got plenty of backing but the office manager got a world of woe. I met the guy and hes just a worker that is getting caught in the squeeze. A banner is the least I could do. So I host his website for him as well.

I dont know Ray nor have I ever met him. But Hammer and I spent a considerable time with Jim and the guys from Canada that were actually doing the shooting for them while Jim was employeed there.

Now Max. I have met.
Max is a pure asshole. And hes the perfect target/canary. I support Max's right to shoot whatever but like Scooter I dont like it or him at all.

But lets face it. People like Max and Rob Black are the perfect ones to keep the Feds busy.

They leave the rest of us alone in the meantime.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Toby

I have to give you your due. When you put your foot in it, you really do a first rate job.

I'll offer just one small bit of advice, don't open your mouth to just change feet.

So, this is not the case?

[softball]

Originally Posted by gonzo

That case hasnt been proven and the banner is up to help out Jim Manley not Ray Guhn. Ray got plenty of backing but the office manager got a world of woe. I met the guy and hes just a worker that is getting caught in the squeeze. A banner is the least I could do. So I host his website for him as well.

I dont know Ray nor have I ever met him. But Hammer and I spent a considerable time with Jim and the guys from Canada that were actually doing the shooting for them while Jim was employeed there.

Now Max. I have met.
Max is a pure asshole. And hes the perfect target/canary. I support Max's right to shoot whatever but like Scooter I dont like it or him at all.

But lets face it. People like Max and Rob Black are the perfect ones to keep the Feds busy.

They leave the rest of us alone in the meantime.

Fair enough. BTW, they still shoot that site here. I know lots who work on it and run it.
I just followed that case in the beginning and even asked relevant questions that were dodged by the whole lot of them. But as far as I can gather, they were not busted for porn, but for parties. If Toby can correct me on this, he will be the first.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Fair enough. BTW, they still shoot that site here. I know lots who work on it and run it.
I just followed that case in the beginning and even asked relevant questions that were dodged by the whole lot of them. But as far as I can gather, they were not busted for porn, but for parties. If Toby can correct me on this, he will be the first.

Theres a lot of questions that they were unable to answer.

[softball]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Theres a lot of questions that they were unable to answer.

Maybe Toby can clarify the situation for us, but I damn sure do not support what is fundamentally a prostitution charge that has zero to do with a porn website. I am, however, eagerly willing to stand corrected if someone will show me the error of my opinion.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Maybe Toby can clarify the situation for us, but I damn sure do not support what is fundamentally a prostitution charge that has zero to do with a porn website. I am, however, eagerly willing to stand corrected if someone will show me the error of my opinion.

BTW Toby was at the same show.

Its possibile he spent some time with Jim too.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by gonzo

BTW Toby was at the same show.

Its possibile he spent some time with Jim too.

I spent the better part of one whole evening sitting next to him as a whole group of us sat around and shot the bull.

The only place I've read anything about crew/staff fucking models was in the very early mainstream media reports. I've not seen anything stated by the local prosecutors that confirms that.

This case will potentially set some very important precedents. 1) Is hiring models to have sex on camera considered prostitution in Florida? 2) What is the definition of Obscene? (lawyers for the plaintiffs have petitioned the court for just such a definition.)

The overall significance of the Obscenity definition is obvious, but in relation to this case if the obscenity charges go away, then so do the RICO charges, since the prostitution charge alone isn't sufficient for RICO.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Toby

I spent the better part of one whole evening sitting next to him as a whole group of us sat around and shot the bull.

The only place you've read anything about crew/staff fucking models was in the very early mainstream media reports. I've not seen anything issued by the local prosecutors that confirms that.

This case will potentially set some very important precedents. 1) Is hiring models to have sex on camera considered prostitution in Florida? 2) What is the definition of Obscene? (lawyers for the plaintiffs have petitioned the court for just such a definition.)

The overall significance of the Obscenity definition is obvious, but in relation to this case if the obscenity charges go away, then so do the RICO charges, since the prostitution charge alone isn't sufficient for RICO.

I have seen absolutely no confirmation of point 1. I have seen no charges of sex on camera being prostitution. I would say, but have not seen any indication of this definition of obsenity petition, that this would be significant. The devil is in the details and no one seems very forthcoming when asked. I just get the same old prostitution claim, but no formal charge has been produced. So now is the time, T. Please produce any and all charges.
This is not a question of anyone's foot in anyone's mouth. You might think about retracting that particular accusation.

[Toby]

Charges:
"manufacture and sale of obscene material"
"racketeering — conducting a criminal enterprise by engaging in prostitution."

The only mention of 'private parties' was in a Pensacola newspaper report in regards to an affidavit accompanying the arrest warrants.

I was mistaken about the petition to define obscene, that's not exactly the case. They petitioned to define "community standards", which is what is used to determine what is considered obscene. http://www.xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=22227

I don't believe that you honestly feel this case is about hiring hookers for private parties. For starters, in Florida the statute of limitations on prostitution is one year, so those charges by themselves are non-starters. It's all posturing for making the RICO charge.

[softball]

You still have not shown me where they have been charged with prostituion while filming porn. Which, btw, was the whole pitch when they went looking for funding for their case. I still say it is not the issue and never has been. Even Mr. Walters never answered this when I asked. It is a tapdance to raise money. Like I said, I have asked over and over and over again and the best anyone, including yourself can do is say that they have been charged with prostitution while filming, but there seems to be no evidence of this. Now about the foot in mouth issue, Toby.....

[Toby]

from a post by Jim Manley on another board last July.

Originally Posted by jimatcohf

Why the charge of Racketeering? As mentioned, the cops assert that compensating people who perform in, or produce, adult sexual content is prostitution and that any parties earning an income derived from activity based on prostitution is Racketeering

[softball]

Originally Posted by Toby

from a post by Jim Manley on another board last July.

I still have not seen this in any charge. I will give Mr. Manley the benefit of the doubt, but am not yet convinced of the veracity of the statement. There seems to be an abundance of smoke, a plethora of mirrors and a paucity of facts surrounding this case.
Call me cynical but the hat was out pretty quickly on this one considering the rather large profits this company claimed to be making back in the day. I have never been against helping out if I believe in a cause, but in this case I still have my doubts.
Edit: BTW, neither of my feet was in my mouth on this one, and I still think an apology is in order. You may not agree with my opinion, but it is well thought out and I was not shooting from the hip, Toby.

[Toby]

My point is that you're stuck on the private parties allegation when they have nothing to do with the case.

For the prostitution charge to apply to the racketeering it has to be part of an illegal enterprise. In other words the alleged illegal enterprise (manufacture and sale of obscene material) has to derive income from the alleged prostitution as part of the enterprise. Beyond entertaining clients I don't see much income relative the the web sites being derived from private parties, so that leaves models hired to perform on film.

Is it starting to make sense?

[softball]

Originally Posted by Toby

My point is that you're stuck on the private parties allegation when they have nothing to do with the case.

For the prostitution charge to apply to the racketeering it has to be part of an illegal enterprise. In other words the alleged illegal enterprise (manufacture and sale of obscene material) has to derive income from the alleged prostitution as part of the enterprise. Beyond entertaining clients I don't see much income relative the the web sites being derived from private parties, so that leaves models hired to perform on film.

Is it starting to make sense?

It is worth considering, but no it is not starting to make sense.

[jimatcohf]

Mr Rhetorical, first it saddens me to see a member of our industry attack someone or a company when truly you do not understand or even have correct knowledge of a particular situation. I am Jim Manley, I was arrested on 2 counts of Racketeering if you do not understand that charge you will need to understand it is an extremely complex and honestly confusing law, First you must have what are called predicates, the 2 predicates that created the 2 counts were 1) obscenity and 2) prostitution. I was charged with count 1 due to a local judge ruling that the website I was the general manager for was obscene cumonherface.com Count 2 was due to the fact that the company paid models male and female to act in our films were considered prostitutes and therefore I became a pimp or john since yes I was involved in some of the scenes as well. So many lies, mis truths and such were printed in the mainstream media that I dont know where to begin, however I will make some points very clear.

1) the Guns and Drugs found during the search warrants were all LEGAL and registered with the state and the drugs were perscription meds that legal perscriptions were provided for.

2) We NEVER used a casting couch, private party, audition for Any model of cohf or any other site we produced.

Why did we start the defense fund, well simply I was stupid, I did not have a rainy day account or any means to provide a strong legal defense for myself. I was not an owner nor did I "profit" from the company I was simply an independant contractor that performed tasks. I was not making tens of thousands in fact my payroll was considerbly less than most tend to believe.
So yes was I asking the industry for help, you bet I was simply for 2 reasons, first what we are charged with WILL impact the US webmaster if we are found guilty 2nd We donated to several legal causes thru the years and we hoped the same generosity would be repayed back to our cause, but dont worry Rhetorical it wasnt repayed other than Wegcash and a few other webmasters we received very little in donations so you can rest easy.

Why does Larry walters not respond to you well lets think about this for a minute based on your attitude about this I wouldnt give you the time of day either and second why dont you ask your attorney if he would comment on matters before a trial, if he says he would Id be trying to find a new attorney.

You claim I used smoke and mirrors etc in alot of my statements, of course I cant come out and comment on many factors of the case I would be an idiot to do so, even this is risky but I am not going to just let you trash and spread fiction about our case or my Life. I am not telling the entire story simply because it needs to come out in court, if I told you our entire strategy how smart would that be. Why dont you post your true stats, how much money you make, your social security number, and your home address, as well as everyother piece of information about your company and how you do business oh yes id like all the rest of your personal information as well, now remember no smoke and mirrors.

Guys, this case will either support our rights to make adult material or shake the very foundation of what we do in this business. Make no bones about it, we lose and this will be the case the govt has wanted and needed for years to go after the adult industry in whole and will not stop till there is no more porn in the US. The political ramifications of this trial will mean pepole are elected or defeated, what kinds of materials adults can watch in the privacy of their home and if the us webmasters and producers will be able to continue to work in this industry without fear of prosecution.

I want to Thank Gonzo for his continued support of our website and by flying the banner for our defense fund, it might not be gaining any donations but at least it keeps fresh the memory of our case.

Thank you Gonzo

Thank you Toby, Hammer, and the others that believe in our cause and assist us fighting the good fight.

Jim Manley

[gonzo]

Jim

I have only spent a few days with you but I beleive I am a good judge of character and I know when someone is just trying to make a living.
If you had a gold tooth and a New York brim I might hae been swayed otherwise.

There are a lot of rumors and conspiracy therories and questions of what happened and what didnt happen.

Im prety sure that it will come out in the courts soon.

If you think that what they were doing was stupid - pissing in the face of the local authorities - or whatever.... just remember if you are shooting content... this could have been you.

And I sit in the very city Max was filed against .... and I know there have been shoots going on all weekend.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Jim

I have only spent a few days with you but I beleive I am a good judge of character and I know when someone is just trying to make a living.
If you had a gold tooth and a New York brim I might hae been swayed otherwise.

There are a lot of rumors and conspiracy therories and questions of what happened and what didnt happen.

Im prety sure that it will come out in the courts soon.

If you think that what they were doing was stupid - pissing in the face of the local authorities - or whatever.... just remember if you are shooting content... this could have been you.

And I sit in the very city Max was filed against .... and I know there have been shoots going on all weekend.

Sorry very different max is feds, cumon her face wasnt porn it was pissing off the locals.I doubt they are bad guys, it's this internet attitude I can do whatever I want where ever I want.They chose a very uptight city to run their business, should we all pay for that? Score and bang bus run out of miami ,are covered by the news and nothing happens to them. Cumonherface chose to be in a place that is very uptight. Now the question is when they chose to run their business in this place that was antiporn did they think about how they were going to fuck it up for so many people? Shooting porn out of LA is very gray but you can be fucking aware and say lets look is there lots of adult stuff where I am or none. If its none there is a good chance your going to get fucked by the locals. Now where I live in Atlanta,they give out free magazines where to find hookers, toy shops and massage palours.Mike south was on the cover of creative loafing as the king of porn and he is fine.Porn isnt a big deal here and thats why I run my business here but to choose to run it in a nonporn friendly place and act then like your fighting for all our rights is funny at best.

[jimatcohf]

Tony, last time I looked Tampa and Miami are in the same state as Pensacola, so unless things have changed the laws of one town in a state apply to ALL towns in that state, so I dont buy the well its ok in miami and tampa but its not ok in pensacola.

2nd for the love of god will everyone understand WE HADNT SHOT ONE SCENE IN PENSACOLA FOR OVER 2 YEARS PRIOR TO THE ARREST. I dont know how guys working out of thier houses doing the same thing most of you are doing is pissing off the locals.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by jimatcohf

Tony, last time I looked Tampa and Miami are in the same state as Pensacola, so unless things have changed the laws of one town in a state apply to ALL towns in that state, so I dont buy the well its ok in miami and tampa but its not ok in pensacola.

2nd for the love of god will everyone understand WE HADNT SHOT ONE SCENE IN PENSACOLA FOR OVER 2 YEARS PRIOR TO THE ARREST. I dont know how guys working out of thier houses doing the same thing most of you are doing is pissing off the locals.

You know what Im talking about, there are strip clubs in some towns other towns wont allow it and they are both in the same state. Its the internet attitude I can do whatever I want where I want and I dont have to be aware of my surroundings.The pissing the locals was actually from a lawyer I had spoken with who is based in Fl, he said they arent in trouble for porn,its for pissing off the locals.

[Rcourt64]

Originally Posted by jimatcohf

Tony, last time I looked Tampa and Miami are in the same state as Pensacola, so unless things have changed the laws of one town in a state apply to ALL towns in that state, so I dont buy the well its ok in miami and tampa but its not ok in pensacola.

2nd for the love of god will everyone understand WE HADNT SHOT ONE SCENE IN PENSACOLA FOR OVER 2 YEARS PRIOR TO THE ARREST. I dont know how guys working out of thier houses doing the same thing most of you are doing is pissing off the locals.

This is true, but also alot of laws are set differently thru each county and not by city to city. laws are county laws, example could be thats why some strip clubs have full nudity "without liquor" and some have "liquor without full nudity". etc,etc laws vary from county to county, not city to city.

[softball]

Originally Posted by jimatcohf

Mr Rhetorical, first it saddens me to see a member of our industry attack someone or a company when truly you do not understand or even have correct knowledge of a particular situation. I am Jim Manley, I was arrested on 2 counts of Racketeering if you do not understand that charge you will need to understand it is an extremely complex and honestly confusing law, First you must have what are called predicates, the 2 predicates that created the 2 counts were 1) obscenity and 2) prostitution. I was charged with count 1 due to a local judge ruling that the website I was the general manager for was obscene cumonherface.com Count 2 was due to the fact that the company paid models male and female to act in our films were considered prostitutes and therefore I became a pimp or john since yes I was involved in some of the scenes as well. So many lies, mis truths and such were printed in the mainstream media that I dont know where to begin, however I will make some points very clear.

1) the Guns and Drugs found during the search warrants were all LEGAL and registered with the state and the drugs were perscription meds that legal perscriptions were provided for.

2) We NEVER used a casting couch, private party, audition for Any model of cohf or any other site we produced.

Why did we start the defense fund, well simply I was stupid, I did not have a rainy day account or any means to provide a strong legal defense for myself. I was not an owner nor did I "profit" from the company I was simply an independant contractor that performed tasks. I was not making tens of thousands in fact my payroll was considerbly less than most tend to believe.
So yes was I asking the industry for help, you bet I was simply for 2 reasons, first what we are charged with WILL impact the US webmaster if we are found guilty 2nd We donated to several legal causes thru the years and we hoped the same generosity would be repayed back to our cause, but dont worry Rhetorical it wasnt repayed other than Wegcash and a few other webmasters we received very little in donations so you can rest easy.

Why does Larry walters not respond to you well lets think about this for a minute based on your attitude about this I wouldnt give you the time of day either and second why dont you ask your attorney if he would comment on matters before a trial, if he says he would Id be trying to find a new attorney.

You claim I used smoke and mirrors etc in alot of my statements, of course I cant come out and comment on many factors of the case I would be an idiot to do so, even this is risky but I am not going to just let you trash and spread fiction about our case or my Life. I am not telling the entire story simply because it needs to come out in court, if I told you our entire strategy how smart would that be. Why dont you post your true stats, how much money you make, your social security number, and your home address, as well as everyother piece of information about your company and how you do business oh yes id like all the rest of your personal information as well, now remember no smoke and mirrors.

Guys, this case will either support our rights to make adult material or shake the very foundation of what we do in this business. Make no bones about it, we lose and this will be the case the govt has wanted and needed for years to go after the adult industry in whole and will not stop till there is no more porn in the US. The political ramifications of this trial will mean pepole are elected or defeated, what kinds of materials adults can watch in the privacy of their home and if the us webmasters and producers will be able to continue to work in this industry without fear of prosecution.

I want to Thank Gonzo for his continued support of our website and by flying the banner for our defense fund, it might not be gaining any donations but at least it keeps fresh the memory of our case.

Thank you Gonzo

Thank you Toby, Hammer, and the others that believe in our cause and assist us fighting the good fight.

Jim Manley

[/quote]Mr Rhetorical, first it saddens me to see a member of our industry attack someone or a company when truly you do not understand or even have correct knowledge of a particular situation[/quote]

Mr.Manly, first it saddens me to see a member of our industry attack another for asking pertinent questions when they do not either read or understand the questions or issues raised.

I am always willing to support anyone who has been wrongly accused and especially if that charge effects our industry.

The fact of the matter is,however, that I have been asking questions from the very beginning and getting nothing but evasive answers.
What I would like to see is a link or a concise exlanation of a charge of prostitution that directly relates to filming. Toby gave and explanation that does not clear it up for me.
Your particular case was never mentioned ever by me. Larry Walters seemed reticent to give an explanation. So maybe you could. I have no axe to grind with you nor cohf. I just would like to see some clarification that the charge relates to filming.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by Rcourt64

This is true, but also alot of laws are set differently thru each county and not by city to city. laws are county laws, example could be thats why some strip clubs have full nudity "without liquor" and some have "liquor without full nudity". etc,etc laws vary from county to county, not city to city.

Tampa and Miami are in different counties but in the same state . I highly doubt they didnt know this and we arent saying anything they didnt know.They arent stupid people which making its more annoying actually.