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This probably huts the US somewhat - but I know it hurts Chirac, and that makes me very happy.
It's ironic the French will run him out of town for this EU debacle, yet his scummy personal relationship with Saddam, and the numerous other scandels ( bribes, etc...) never hurt him at all.
Where is Aeon?? I hope you are going to lecture the evil French on the nasty concepts of Nationalism!!! European unity has only been succesful when the US was pushing it. The EU was a natural extension of NATO/military co-operation - that the US ran.
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It's not the end of the EU it's the savior of the EU.
Would you vote YES for a constitution that would pave the way for Mexico to become part of the USA and allow their citizens to compete for American jobs accepting a third of the salary?
Crazy thing about the french people is that alot of them voted no, because the constitution/treaty was not socialist enough You got to love their logic - vote no, and we can make the rest of the EU countries agree on even more social issues However the truth is that most of the northern european countries and GB do not want an EU which is about protecting some french farmers against the world. So if the french succeed in their quest to renegotiate the constitution/treaty, then that new "socialist" constitution/treaty will probably be rejected by even more people in europe. The EU is looking more and more like the Eurovision Song Contest - dozens of crappy songs, amature performers, and voting which is more about friendship between nations, then about choosing the "best" compromise.
I canīt wait until wednesday, when the Dutch people are also going to reject the constitution/treaty - that will be a knock out for alot of "super" europeans, who have their heads so much up in their own ass, that they can not see the real world around them...
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by Mike AI@May 29 2005, 10:26 PM It's ironic the French will run him out of town for this EU debacle, yet his scummy personal relationship with Saddam, and the numerous other scandels ( bribes, etc...) never hurt him at all.
Its scary - the next President in France, could be a socialist, and if you didnīt like Chirac (he is centre-right in french politics) because of his foreign policy, then Iīm almost 100% sure that you will also hate the next guy they got lined up
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
The EU has been good for spain, a stable currency and the government not being able to fuck with interest rates and keeping a 3% ceiling on gdp/debt has taken away the main problems Spain had in the past.
They've also received alot of $$ for infrastructure, which the country needed badly, the EU isnt all bad.
Originally posted by el pres@May 30 2005, 03:07 PM The EU has been good for spain, a stable currency and the government not being able to fuck with interest rates and keeping a 3% ceiling on gdp/debt has taken away the main problems Spain had in the past.
They've also received alot of $$ for infrastructure, which the country needed badly, the EU isnt all bad.
For Spain it was a great thing indeed, I do feel that the UK doesn't need it however because we already have the things the EU helped Spain achieve.
The EU has been and is good - however the problem is that the "EU project" is more a political goal, than a goal of the european people. Most people can not be bothered with visions that are 10-50 years in the future - their attention span is 1-5 years, and important subjects for normal people does not include regional stability, integration, and development, but jobs, self identity, and who will win the world cup
The EU will probably do as they did with Denmark, and later Ireland, when they voted no, and just come up with a new version of the same content, and make people vote again and again until they say "YES!"
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by Rolo@May 30 2005, 09:36 AM The EU will probably do as they did with Denmark, and later Ireland, when they voted no, and just come up with a new version of the same content, and make people vote again and again until they say "YES!"
I can understand Denmark voting no, with the social welfare system they've got there.
But the Irish took the piss voting no, with the amout of $$ that was chucked into Ireland, and them becoming a huge euro base for the main computer companies because of Irelands tax policies within the EU, That was wrong.
Of coure the EU is not bad - it could and may still be a brilliant idea. I saw first hand the advances it brought to Spain.
Timon, I understand why the French rejected it - but it still does not prevent me from enjoying Chirac's failure...
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I'm not familiar with all of the particualrs bt is there any way that the rest of the countries that vote yes can tell France and any other country that says no (assuming there is only one or two more at most out of the 25) to go fuck themselves and fend for themselves?
Originally posted by TheEnforcer@May 30 2005, 08:10 AM I'm not familiar with all of the particualrs bt is there any way that the rest of the countries that vote yes can tell France and any other country that says no (assuming there is only one or two more at most out of the 25) to go fuck themselves and fend for themselves?
This is what Giscard said about what would happen, if the french voted no:
Quote:
Former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing has strongly defended the EU constitution that he created.
Mr Giscard d'Estaing said it could not be renegotiated if the French rejected it in their referendum on 29 May.
He said the ratifications of the treaty across Europe, including the UK's own planned plebiscite, would continue, even in the face of a French No.
Opinion polls in France show the No vote slightly ahead, with just a week and a half to go.
'Bad timing'
Mr Giscard d'Estaing robustly defended his creation - the European constitutional treaty he spent several years negotiating.
He dismissed the idea of renegotiation, saying "it would be a useless and non-productive confrontation".
"There is no opening for that. What do you want to renegotiate? We had a long negotiation, then inter-governmental negotiation for one full year."
He said the No campaigners in France were attacking from the extremes of left and right.
But he insisted the treaty neither handed too much power to Brussels nor threatened the French social model. "The states remain, and we keep our citizenship."
The former French president admitted the referendum came at a bad time for France.
Unemployment is running at 10%, putting the French people into what he calls a negative mood.
As for Turkish membership of the union, an issue which has become entangled with the debate over the constitution in France, Mr D'Estaing said that although an important neighbour, Turkey could never become a member of the European political system.
"Turkey cannot be a member of the European political system. Why? It will be the most numerous... and poorest, so all the funds will go to Turkey."
Mr D'Estaing said he believed that in the end, the French would look to their consciences and vote Yes to the constitution - albeit by a narrow majority of around 52% or 53%.
With a Yes vote, he said, "people will be pleased, because they don't want to enter into an adventure... They have a sense of responsibility."
So one of the main creators of the constitution says that it can not be renegotiated - so I guess that means it will fall, but we will probably need the dutch (and maybe the UK too) to put the final nails in the coffin...
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Europe on the whole is pretty nationalistic in my opinion, which tends to cause a behavior that runs counter productive to the idea of the Belgium "super democracy". It will be interesting to see where they are in 10 years. 10 immature, quasi-criminal states wanting equal rights combined with the biggest economies in Europe thumbing their nose at budget/deficit rules etc etc etc.
Originally posted by Trev@May 30 2005, 09:37 AM Recent surveys predicted that if/when the UK gets its chance to vote that the NO vote would take it with a 62% majority.
I personally believe my country should be run from London, our laws should be enacted in London and the Pound is King.
Im a nationalist to the extreme.
I always agreed.
Build the ties back up with commonwealth countries and fuck the EU
Originally posted by Mike AI@May 30 2005, 11:07 AM Timon, I understand why the French rejected it - but it still does not prevent me from enjoying Chirac's failure...
So you are not losing any tears over his resignation?? ;-)
Originally posted by leedsfan+May 30 2005, 04:14 PM-->
QUOTE (leedsfan @ May 30 2005, 04:14 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@May 30 2005, 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Timon+May 31 2005, 08:14 AM-->
QUOTE (Timon @ May 31 2005, 08:14 AM)
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Chirac hasn't gone and won't go. His Prime Minister Rafarrin has fallen on his sword, to be replaced by de Villepin, a guy who's never been elected to any public office. (Not quite sure how the fuck that works).
An American school history project marked by an American teacher regrettably doesn't make "America made the EU" fact, it makes it a one-eyed interpretation of events.
The more commonly accepted route to formation of the EU stems from a post-war Franco-German desire not to let the first half of the 20th century repeat itself - "never again" & the view that a very good way to ensure fewer nationalistic contretemps was to bring about economic alliances, integration and inter-dependency. ECSC 1951, Treaty of Rome 1957, etc etc. No doubt the US was also encouraging a strong economic entity as an additional bulwark against the Warsaw Pact countries.
The EU is in some ways a good thing. It's one way to ensure that Europe can compete economically with the US / NAFTA and especially China and or India in the coming decades.
Britain should be at the heart of the EU (if for no other reason than to give the French a poke in the eye), but it shouldn't be built on a federal, euro-socialist model and it certainly shouldn't cost as much to run! To assume one can constitutionalise away centuries of scrapping and dislike over 50 or so years is both foolish and naive.
A British return to the Commonwealth will not work - thoughts that it would smack of expat, flag-raising, gin-wallahs, complaining that things ain't what they used to be as they read their Daily Mail:
No commonwealth countries would be able to buy our goods at "inflated" Western prices, and certainly not in the quantities neccessary to make it economically viable;
None of them would want to even risk going back to being dominated by imperialist London;
Many of them have snuck off and formed their own trading alliances.
Originally posted by Mike AI@May 29 2005, 10:26 PM European unity has only been succesful when the US was pushing it. The EU was a natural extension of NATO/military co-operation - that the US ran.
remind me to kiss your feet next time i see you for thanking you that you allow me to exist.
Originally posted by Jeremy@Jun 1 2005, 01:24 AM Ummmmm a few small points:
Chirac hasn't gone and won't go. His Prime Minister Rafarrin has fallen on his sword, to be replaced by de Villepin, a guy who's never been elected to any public office. (Not quite sure how the fuck that works).
An American school history project marked by an American teacher regrettably doesn't make "America made the EU" fact, it makes it a one-eyed interpretation of events.
The more commonly accepted route to formation of the EU stems from a post-war Franco-German desire not to let the first half of the 20th century repeat itself - "never again" & the view that a very good way to ensure fewer nationalistic contretemps was to bring about economic alliances, integration and inter-dependency. ECSC 1951, Treaty of Rome 1957, etc etc. No doubt the US was also encouraging a strong economic entity as an additional bulwark against the Warsaw Pact countries.
The EU is in some ways a good thing. It's one way to ensure that Europe can compete economically with the US / NAFTA and especially China and or India in the coming decades.
Britain should be at the heart of the EU (if for no other reason than to give the French a poke in the eye), but it shouldn't be built on a federal, euro-socialist model and it certainly shouldn't cost as much to run! To assume one can constitutionalise away centuries of scrapping and dislike over 50 or so years is both foolish and naive.
A British return to the Commonwealth will not work - thoughts that it would smack of expat, flag-raising, gin-wallahs, complaining that things ain't what they used to be as they read their Daily Mail:
No commonwealth countries would be able to buy our goods at "inflated" Western prices, and certainly not in the quantities neccessary to make it economically viable;
None of them would want to even risk going back to being dominated by imperialist London;
Many of them have snuck off and formed their own trading alliances.
05-30-2005
You got to love their logic - vote no, and we can make the rest of the EU countries agree on even more social issues 
However the truth is that most of the northern european countries and GB do not want an EU which is about protecting some french farmers against the world. So if the french succeed in their quest to renegotiate the constitution/treaty, then that new "socialist" constitution/treaty will probably be rejected by even more people in europe. The EU is looking more and more like the Eurovision Song Contest - dozens of crappy songs, amature performers, and voting which is more about friendship between nations, then about choosing the "best" compromise.
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