IBILL... People are getting pissed

Anthony · 12-15-2004

http://www.kernow.com/bcurnow/blog/archive.asp?id=204

Seems this Gkard is casuing quite a ruckus.

iBill and GKard: How not to do Customer Service (Technology)
11/03/2004 14:37 | Comments: 7

I've been using the third-party billing service iBill for the last three years to pay for access to Usenet, a precursor to web-based message boards. As a third-party billing company, iBill would charge my credit card and then forward that money on to Newsfeeds.com, my Usenet provider. Pretty routine, right?
Enter GKard

iBill and GKard logos
Early this morning I received an email from GKard welcoming me to "gkard, the international VISA pre paid card from gkbill". The email contained my legal name and address as well as my new credit card number and expiration date. At the same time I received another email from GKard containing my Pin and the credit card's CVV2 number. A third email showed that $19.95 has been transferred to my GKard from another of my credit cards (although with the wrong expiration date) and a fourth email showed that $19.95 had been paid to "iBillS.COM *Sierra Cor /http://www.newsfeeds.com/index.htm". This description is the same usually used by iBill each month when they charge the $19.95 to my credit card.

An hour later I received this email from iBill.com:

Previously, your credit card has been charged with the descriptor ibillcs.com for your subscription to an Internet website. Going forward, gkbill will now be the new billing agent. During your next billing cycle, your credit card statement will contain a new descriptor, gkard load*gkbill.com. This change will be effective on your next billing cycle. As an added feature of this change, you now have a gkard, Visa Electronic Card, which has been loaded with the appropriate billing amount for your subscription.

By the time this last email arrived I was pretty hopping mad. I immediately cancelled my re-occurring billing through iBill and contacted my Usenet provider to inquire about alternate payment methods.
Screwed by Porn

I knew VISA had recently changed their policies and were beginning to pull merchant accounts of third-party billing companies that dealt primarily with adult websites. I also knew that the bulk of iBill's business came from adult sites, and that they were in serious financal trouble having just lost their merchant account, so I figured GKard was their solution. A quick Google search confirmed my suspicions:

DEERFIELD, Fla. – The ongoing saga of iBill's attempts to remain in the online adult transaction processing business took a surprise turn Friday when customers began receiving email notifications about changes to their subscription status.

As a part of these changes, iBill began issuing customers who subscribed to recurring membership sites a Virtual Visa debit card under the "gkard" label, which comes pre-loaded with the full amount the customer initially charged via his/her Visa.

"We're really IBill, but without Visa," a gkard representative told XBiz. "As for the mechanics of the process, if you want to use Visa to pay for a membership, you have to first load the funds onto the gkard using your Visa, then use your gkard number to join the site. This helps security by limiting the number of people who have your Visa number."
Stephen Yagielowicz, IBill Adopts Virtual Visa'

Customer Service usually helps, right?

With this information in hand, I called the number listed on GKard's website (877-283-1863). Call the number, it'll sound like every other credit/debit card toll-free number out there. I had five goals:

1. Express my outrage over having a credit card account opened in my name without my permission
2. Clarify the relationship between iBill and GKard
3. Discovered how and why the credit card I used with iBill, which had expired last month, was still being used but with a new, and incorrect, expiration date
4. Find out why they sent my name, address, credit card number, expiration date, pin code, and CVV2 number in a plain text email message
5. Close my GKard account

Call #1: I spoke with Troy who insisted the GKard is "not a Visa card". I pointed to the VISA logo on the GKard website and read the opening of their first email to me ("Welcome to gkard, the international VISA pre paid card from gkbill" ). He maintained that the GKard was not a Visa card. I was told that iBill was GKard and he confirmed that my account was closed when I cancelled my reoccurring billing with iBill. He then suggested I speak with a supervisor, put me on hold, and disconnected me.

Call #2: Andrew answered and while I was explaining what had happened with Troy I suddenly heard a message stating "Your call time has expired…goodbye" and I was disconnected. This message did not come from my phone system. It had to have been generated on GKard's end.

Call #3: I entered my GKard number into the automated phone system, just as I had the previous two times I called. This time, however, anytime I pressed a menu option I received the following message: "Your account's credit limit has been reached. Please contact your customer service representative." I received this response to every menu option I was presented with. Clearly, my account had been flagged as a "trouble maker".

Call #4: This time I started off with the option for those who'd "forgotten" their account number. I reached Andrew (who had the fakest Hispanic accent ever) who was firm that he could not send me to a supervisor without first trying to assist me. I described my previous calls, suggested that I was about to call VISA International, and suddenly found myself speaking with Claude, a "supervisor". He said the GKard _was_ a Visa card, confirmed that my GKard was closed, and explained away the false expiration date as a "customer convenience" measure. He then went on to say that they choose to email my credit card information to respect the privacy of their customers who were using them to view porn on the internet. He then said he was sure their use of two separate emails to send out the card details was "perfectly legal". He then started into a round of "don't shoot the messenger". Clearly I was dealing with the head weasel. The only other information he'd provide is that iBill and GKard were two separate companies, despite what I'd been hold by Troy and what I read on the Internet.
You just knew they'd be based in Florida

At first glance, iBill and GKard appear to be separate companies. The domain name iBill.com is registered to the Internet Billing Company, LLC of Deerfield Beach, FL. The domain name GKBill.com is registered last month to Muscato Corp. of Maitland, FL. Wow, a Florida-based credit card company that's been in business for less than a month. No, this sounds perfectly above-board.

I've got calls into my original merchant, my bank, and to VISA.
Comments
Keith Watson - Saturday 11/06/2004 @ 05:48:30
I've had exactly the same e-mails in this morning. Rather furious and searched on the web and found this posting. The strange thing with me is that I have as far as I know no ibill account so how did they get my data!!

What should I do?
RIchard - Saturday 11/06/2004 @ 14:39:45
I've had the same email too but I don't have an account with ibill!! Is my bank account safe?
Terry W - Sunday 11/07/2004 @ 20:21:15
Just got my notification about the ibillcs.com changing my account to gkard today. The multiple notes detailing the new arrangement are a rather inept way to handle the change. If they would just come out and say why they are doing it, how it was supposed to work, and asked me for authorization, I probably would have gone along with it.
But simply dumping it on me (and saying in their message that I had already authorized it), ticks me off.
I sent a reply to cease, remove me from the card, that I didn't authorize it and that I would complain to my credit card, to the FTC, my State Attourney General and TRW.
Idiots.
Yes, they must be from Florida.
Can't we just cut them off along the border and shove the whole state out to sea?
thom - Tuesday 11/09/2004 @ 19:07:28
Same thing. It's on today's Visa bill. I'm simply going to tell Visa that this is an unauthorized charge, which it is.
Jolene - Tuesday 11/16/2004 @ 01:00:30
I can not believe this! I never recieved an e-mail but I noticed a charge to my visa account for $9.94 on 11/12/04. I went to my bank today and they said they were going to research it. On my bank statment the charge was listed as cnp*gkard load gkbill. then there was a number listed as 877-283-1874. I called this number and a scott answered and said he had no idea what I was talking about. He said his phone # started with (941)from Flordia and he said that I had dialed the wrong #. I don't even subscribe to Ibill. I don't know how they got my information! I am definately showing this website to my bank tomorrow! We have to work together to get these people that are charging us!!!!
John - Tuesday 11/16/2004 @ 11:06:40
To add insult to injury, I found this charge on my CANCELED Visa Check Card. I called my bank, to see what the deal is, got the run-around, hung up and sent an email. Perhaps they'll have someone inteligent call me back. My fingers are crossed.
RIchard - Tuesday 11/16/2004 @ 11:48:06
I got billed again today which is exactly one week after the first billing. Tried to e-mail them and writtent to my bank to return the payments but heard nothing back from them yet!!!

JoesHO · 12-15-2004

better to be pissed off than to be pissed on ( especially here LOL)

Looks like Ibill has acomplished both, pissing people off, by pissing on them !!!!

DrGuile · 12-15-2004

holy crap, that is one hell of a desperation move....

think that will generate enough chargebacks to get gkbill merchant account pulled?
(rethorical question)

Suscribing users to a new visa card (virtual or not) without their consent... wow.... even Nick never pulled that one....

DrGuile · 12-15-2004

That was posted at the beginning of november.... apparently it worked out... at least temporarly...

Nickatilynx · 12-15-2004

Well I got a wire on the 1st of Decemeber from them.

They have promised another wire today.

I'll let you know.

Dravyk · 12-15-2004

As I said elsewhere ... at this rate, I don't see iBill making it until the end of January.

Lee · 12-15-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Anthony@Dec 15 2004, 05:53 AM
Screwed by Porn

Im surprised nobody has mentioned this part of the post yet.

They werent 'screwed by porn' they were screwed by the processor which is a completely different thing altogether.

It also makes me wonder just how much of the 'porn' industrys bad rep comes from inept billing processors.

Rolo · 12-15-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee@Dec 15 2004, 11:14 AM
It also makes me wonder just how much of the 'porn' industrys bad rep comes from inept billing processors.

Porn is bad - mmmkay... and it probably still will be in 50 years.

But that said, then I have noticed that each year our new members get more "smart". Trials getting cancelled within mins after signing up, making it very clear that every membership should be cancelled even if they have only bought one etc. And some of our supporters say the surfers have become more hostile in their "tone", when they are asking for simple support such as cancel a membership instructions. Maybe its in the culture - the world have changed alot since porn started pumping thru the net, but some of it is also due to peoples bad experiences.

However I do not blame the processors who are with us today, but some of the processors and merchants who are not.

LA Mike · 12-15-2004

I just want it all to end. Pay me and leave me alone

12-15-2004	#6
Dravyk Easy Like Sunday Morning Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Behind a couch, somewhere in Philly Posts: 7,628	As I said elsewhere ... at this rate, I don't see iBill making it until the end of January. __________________ All Of 'Em Mainstream Webmasters New: WebmasterConventions.com

12-15-2004	#9
LA Mike Members Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Riverside CA Posts: 56	I just want it all to end. Pay me and leave me alone __________________ LAMike The New SilverCash "Unleashed"

12-15-2004	#1
Anthony Banned The global leader in pay-per-view AEBN Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,246	http://www.kernow.com/bcurnow/blog/archive.asp?id=204 Seems this Gkard is casuing quite a ruckus. iBill and GKard: How not to do Customer Service (Technology) 11/03/2004 14:37 \| Comments: 7 I've been using the third-party billing service iBill for the last three years to pay for access to Usenet, a precursor to web-based message boards. As a third-party billing company, iBill would charge my credit card and then forward that money on to Newsfeeds.com, my Usenet provider. Pretty routine, right? Enter GKard iBill and GKard logos Early this morning I received an email from GKard welcoming me to "gkard, the international VISA pre paid card from gkbill". The email contained my legal name and address as well as my new credit card number and expiration date. At the same time I received another email from GKard containing my Pin and the credit card's CVV2 number. A third email showed that $19.95 has been transferred to my GKard from another of my credit cards (although with the wrong expiration date) and a fourth email showed that $19.95 had been paid to "iBillS.COM Sierra Cor /http://www.newsfeeds.com/index.htm". This description is the same usually used by iBill each month when they charge the $19.95 to my credit card. An hour later I received this email from iBill.com: Previously, your credit card has been charged with the descriptor ibillcs.com for your subscription to an Internet website. Going forward, gkbill will now be the new billing agent. During your next billing cycle, your credit card statement will contain a new descriptor, gkard loadgkbill.com. This change will be effective on your next billing cycle. As an added feature of this change, you now have a gkard, Visa Electronic Card, which has been loaded with the appropriate billing amount for your subscription. By the time this last email arrived I was pretty hopping mad. I immediately cancelled my re-occurring billing through iBill and contacted my Usenet provider to inquire about alternate payment methods. Screwed by Porn I knew VISA had recently changed their policies and were beginning to pull merchant accounts of third-party billing companies that dealt primarily with adult websites. I also knew that the bulk of iBill's business came from adult sites, and that they were in serious financal trouble having just lost their merchant account, so I figured GKard was their solution. A quick Google search confirmed my suspicions: DEERFIELD, Fla. – The ongoing saga of iBill's attempts to remain in the online adult transaction processing business took a surprise turn Friday when customers began receiving email notifications about changes to their subscription status. As a part of these changes, iBill began issuing customers who subscribed to recurring membership sites a Virtual Visa debit card under the "gkard" label, which comes pre-loaded with the full amount the customer initially charged via his/her Visa. "We're really IBill, but without Visa," a gkard representative told XBiz. "As for the mechanics of the process, if you want to use Visa to pay for a membership, you have to first load the funds onto the gkard using your Visa, then use your gkard number to join the site. This helps security by limiting the number of people who have your Visa number." Stephen Yagielowicz, IBill Adopts Virtual Visa' Customer Service usually helps, right? With this information in hand, I called the number listed on GKard's website (877-283-1863). Call the number, it'll sound like every other credit/debit card toll-free number out there. I had five goals: 1. Express my outrage over having a credit card account opened in my name without my permission 2. Clarify the relationship between iBill and GKard 3. Discovered how and why the credit card I used with iBill, which had expired last month, was still being used but with a new, and incorrect, expiration date 4. Find out why they sent my name, address, credit card number, expiration date, pin code, and CVV2 number in a plain text email message 5. Close my GKard account Call #1: I spoke with Troy who insisted the GKard is "not a Visa card". I pointed to the VISA logo on the GKard website and read the opening of their first email to me ("Welcome to gkard, the international VISA pre paid card from gkbill" ). He maintained that the GKard was not a Visa card. I was told that iBill was GKard and he confirmed that my account was closed when I cancelled my reoccurring billing with iBill. He then suggested I speak with a supervisor, put me on hold, and disconnected me. Call #2: Andrew answered and while I was explaining what had happened with Troy I suddenly heard a message stating "Your call time has expired…goodbye" and I was disconnected. This message did not come from my phone system. It had to have been generated on GKard's end. Call #3: I entered my GKard number into the automated phone system, just as I had the previous two times I called. This time, however, anytime I pressed a menu option I received the following message: "Your account's credit limit has been reached. Please contact your customer service representative." I received this response to every menu option I was presented with. Clearly, my account had been flagged as a "trouble maker". Call #4: This time I started off with the option for those who'd "forgotten" their account number. I reached Andrew (who had the fakest Hispanic accent ever) who was firm that he could not send me to a supervisor without first trying to assist me. I described my previous calls, suggested that I was about to call VISA International, and suddenly found myself speaking with Claude, a "supervisor". He said the GKard _was_ a Visa card, confirmed that my GKard was closed, and explained away the false expiration date as a "customer convenience" measure. He then went on to say that they choose to email my credit card information to respect the privacy of their customers who were using them to view porn on the internet. He then said he was sure their use of two separate emails to send out the card details was "perfectly legal". He then started into a round of "don't shoot the messenger". Clearly I was dealing with the head weasel. The only other information he'd provide is that iBill and GKard were two separate companies, despite what I'd been hold by Troy and what I read on the Internet. You just knew they'd be based in Florida At first glance, iBill and GKard appear to be separate companies. The domain name iBill.com is registered to the Internet Billing Company, LLC of Deerfield Beach, FL. The domain name GKBill.com is registered last month to Muscato Corp. of Maitland, FL. Wow, a Florida-based credit card company that's been in business for less than a month. No, this sounds perfectly above-board. I've got calls into my original merchant, my bank, and to VISA. Comments Keith Watson - Saturday 11/06/2004 @ 05:48:30 I've had exactly the same e-mails in this morning. Rather furious and searched on the web and found this posting. The strange thing with me is that I have as far as I know no ibill account so how did they get my data!! What should I do? RIchard - Saturday 11/06/2004 @ 14:39:45 I've had the same email too but I don't have an account with ibill!! Is my bank account safe? Terry W - Sunday 11/07/2004 @ 20:21:15 Just got my notification about the ibillcs.com changing my account to gkard today. The multiple notes detailing the new arrangement are a rather inept way to handle the change. If they would just come out and say why they are doing it, how it was supposed to work, and asked me for authorization, I probably would have gone along with it. But simply dumping it on me (and saying in their message that I had already authorized it), ticks me off. I sent a reply to cease, remove me from the card, that I didn't authorize it and that I would complain to my credit card, to the FTC, my State Attourney General and TRW. Idiots. Yes, they must be from Florida. Can't we just cut them off along the border and shove the whole state out to sea? thom - Tuesday 11/09/2004 @ 19:07:28 Same thing. It's on today's Visa bill. I'm simply going to tell Visa that this is an unauthorized charge, which it is. Jolene - Tuesday 11/16/2004 @ 01:00:30 I can not believe this! I never recieved an e-mail but I noticed a charge to my visa account for $9.94 on 11/12/04. I went to my bank today and they said they were going to research it. On my bank statment the charge was listed as cnp*gkard load gkbill. then there was a number listed as 877-283-1874. I called this number and a scott answered and said he had no idea what I was talking about. He said his phone # started with (941)from Flordia and he said that I had dialed the wrong #. I don't even subscribe to Ibill. I don't know how they got my information! I am definately showing this website to my bank tomorrow! We have to work together to get these people that are charging us!!!! John - Tuesday 11/16/2004 @ 11:06:40 To add insult to injury, I found this charge on my CANCELED Visa Check Card. I called my bank, to see what the deal is, got the run-around, hung up and sent an email. Perhaps they'll have someone inteligent call me back. My fingers are crossed. RIchard - Tuesday 11/16/2004 @ 11:48:06 I got billed again today which is exactly one week after the first billing. Tried to e-mail them and writtent to my bank to return the payments but heard nothing back from them yet!!!

12-15-2004	#2
JoesHO Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5,085	better to be pissed off than to be pissed on ( especially here LOL) Looks like Ibill has acomplished both, pissing people off, by pissing on them !!!! __________________ AEBN THE GLOBAL LEADER IN ADULT EVOLUTION something FIT this way comes!

12-15-2004	#3
DrGuile french with welsh tendancies Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 2,007	holy crap, that is one hell of a desperation move.... think that will generate enough chargebacks to get gkbill merchant account pulled? (rethorical question) Suscribing users to a new visa card (virtual or not) without their consent... wow.... even Nick never pulled that one.... __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 40% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal

12-15-2004	#5
Nickatilynx Banned Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 15,115	Well I got a wire on the 1st of Decemeber from them. They have promised another wire today. I'll let you know.