Genesis of Democracy in Iraq

Almighty Colin · 07-08-2004

What the Toronto Star fails to recognize in this article is that people are criticizing government in Iraq and checks and balances are, for the first time in decades, being put into effect. Democracy is taking hold in Iraq.

BAGHDAD—Iraqis welcomed a sweeping new security law eerily reminiscent of the Saddam-era police state, saying that only by restoring law and order can their new government lay a foundation for the freedom and democracy they hope will follow.

The six-page national security law announced yesterday outlines a crackdown on crime and insurgents replete with the powers to eavesdrop, intercept mail, impose curfews and closures and to search and detain suspects — practices not seen since the fall of dictator Saddam Hussein 15 months ago.

The announcement was underscored by a surge in violence in Baghdad, where a four-volley series of mortar strikes landed in a residential area near the home of Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. Pitched gun battles involving insurgents, fledgling Iraqi police and national guard troops followed.

"We will soon reach a day when you can be safe inside your homes, in your streets, your employment situation will drastically improve and you will all be united without separation according to regions or religions," Allawi told reporters in the wake of the apparent assassination attempt.

"However, for now we have a very important task ahead of us and that is to rid our country of these criminals and terrorists. Together we will succeed and we will prevail."

Allawi's interim government had twice postponed the announcement of the new law in order to accommodate U.S. and Iraqi concerns that the appointed prime minister could use its powers to circumvent elections scheduled for January and remain in office indefinitely.

As written, the emergency law includes several safeguards, including a requirement that Allawi must win the unanimous approval of his three-member Presidency Council — a group that represents the interests of Iraq's dominant Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish populations — before declaring a state of emergency in any given area.

Baghdadis yesterday welcomed the announcement as the most dramatic sign yet that their government has a strategy for ending the rash of kidnappings, carjackings, murder, theft and assault that has plagued the capital since the fall of the former regime.

But many stressed that while they welcome the crackdown, they demand it be fair — and temporary.

"All we want is to feel safe," Saleh Manshed, 54, an unemployed veteran of the Iran-Iraq war, said yesterday in the predominately Shiite ghetto known as Sadr City.

"We want the government to be strong, to frighten the criminals and terrorists.

"And if they come and arrest me, let them. I have nothing to worry about because I am innocent."

Manshed's comments were echoed by half a dozen men gathered amid a squalid strip of automotive machine shops. Across the street, fruit seller Suhil Ali, 42, was more cautious, wondering aloud how long such laws might be in effect.

"If it is temporary, okay. But these laws don't serve people in the long term," said Ali.

"It would be like we went through all of this for nothing. Things would be the same as under Saddam."

In theory, the new national security law will remain nothing more than a piece of paper until such time as the Iraqi government declares a state of emergency within a defined geographical area.

But during a drive through Baghdad yesterday, a carload of journalists, including this reporter, was detained for several minutes at an Iraqi police checkpoint in a manner significantly more aggressive than that seen in recent weeks.

A policeman swinging a blackjack seized the driver's identity papers and threatened to arrest him on the grounds that a rear-window sun screen was hindering his attempts to look inside the car. Only after pleading with the officer, and insisting that the driver was ordered to raise the screen to conceal the car's non-Iraqi passengers, did he relent.

Across town, workers in the upscale neighbourhood of Zeiyouna, known in Saddam's day as City of the Officers, offered mixed reactions.

"Of course this is the right thing to do. Nobody will accept going back to the ways of Saddam, but as an Arab control, we also need strong laws to control the street," said Ivan Hermes Hanna, 23.

"We are not like the Western world. We don't have the training to deal with democracy and personal freedom," said the ice cream parlour operator.

"When the pressure of Saddam was lifted, some people thought freedom meant they could do whatever they wanted, including crime.

"Instead, we need to make the transition step by step toward the goal of freedom."

But a far more bleak assessment came from Saad Rashid, 27, co-owner of an Internet service company, who dismissed yesterday's announcement as "a piece of drama made for television."

"I don't believe it will have any effect because our police are not independent, they are under the Americans. And all the Americans care about is fighting terrorists, not helping Iraqis," Rashid said.

"I have very little information about the American system, but I believe it is better for them to take this war against terrorists to Iraq.

"They created this battleground only for that reason.

"And the Iraqi people are caught in the middle of it all."

Rolo · 07-08-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin@Jul 8 2004, 04:39 AM
"I don't believe it will have any effect because our police are not independent, they are under the Americans. And all the Americans care about is fighting terrorists, not helping Iraqis," Rashid said.

"I have very little information about the American system, but I believe it is better for them to take this war against terrorists to Iraq.

"They created this battleground only for that reason.

"And the Iraqi people are caught in the middle of it all."

I think they are getting there - speaking things like this shows that there some activity in freedom of speach (don´t think anyone would had said something negative about Saddam just 1½ year ago), however what we need now is to have their information flow changed, so they have a broader perspective in their debate.

A good read

chodadog · 07-08-2004

His nonsense would have been more believable had he not contradicted himself with facts. Facts are the enemy of journalists.

Meni · 07-08-2004

Iraq? is a fuckin joke
you can't instill democracy where religion is KING
i'm just happy Haliburton got the $7 BILLION FUCKIN DOLLARS
aren't you?

PornoDoggy · 07-08-2004

Democracy took hold in Yugoslavia about fifteen years ago too ...

Mike AI · 07-08-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Meni@Jul 8 2004, 11:56 AM
Iraq? is a fuckin joke
you can't instill democracy where religion is KING
i'm just happy Haliburton got the $7 BILLION FUCKIN DOLLARS
aren't you?

Meni you must have
skipped out during history
class....

Please explain to me
how democracies come
about.

Big Chop · 07-08-2004

Its all about the Bling.

Meni · 07-08-2004

Mike, the greeks created democracy
hahahahhaha
so i have it up on you
an dyou live in the south
remember the 60s?
dude
history will show iraq was the biggest scam in history
no WMDs, billions of dollars lining the bush family pockets
cheney's boys making billions
and for what?
a civil war in Iraq coming
4 more soldiers died today
wanna show the coffins?
we can't
let me know if you have any cousins who are 16
let em know the draft could be coming
forget college
learn arabic

JFK · 07-08-2004

"But many stressed that while they welcome the crackdown, they demand it be fair — and temporary."

Yeah right, Temporary my ass! Once they have you by the balls its real hard to let go

We are talking politicians here

Mike AI · 07-08-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Meni@Jul 8 2004, 02:42 PM
Mike, the greeks created democracy
hahahahhaha
so i have it up on you
an dyou live in the south
remember the 60s?
dude
history will show iraq was the biggest scam in history
no WMDs, billions of dollars lining the bush family pockets
cheney's boys making billions
and for what?
a civil war in Iraq coming
4 more soldiers died today
wanna show the coffins?
we can't
let me know if you have any cousins who are 16
let em know the draft could be coming
forget college
learn arabic

Meni, Greeks created
democracy, what was
their religion?

Modern democracy came
about in what countries?

Spray some windex on your
head it cures everything!

Or so some greek guy
told me!

Meni · 07-08-2004

windex does work

grimm · 07-08-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Meni@Jul 8 2004, 11:42 AM
Mike, the greeks created democracy
hahahahhaha
so i have it up on you
an dyou live in the south
remember the 60s?
dude
history will show iraq was the biggest scam in history
no WMDs, billions of dollars lining the bush family pockets
cheney's boys making billions
and for what?
a civil war in Iraq coming
4 more soldiers died today
wanna show the coffins?
we can't
let me know if you have any cousins who are 16
let em know the draft could be coming
forget college
learn arabic

wasnt greece a republic?

Almighty Colin · 07-09-2004

If we're talking 5th century BC, Athens was a Democracy but there was no "Greece". Sparta, in contrast, was a mixed form of government combining democracy and oligarchy. 5th Century BC Athens was about as close to direct democracy as one can get because it was a city-state and the population was a manageable size for direct voting. Many thousands of men would vote on actual issues in Athens. I believe 6000 men were required for the assembly but not sure on that as I am not home and no books :-(. Women couldn't vote. Public officials were chosen at random. When Athens might go to war the very men who would be going to war would vote on it.

Almighty Colin · 07-09-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Jul 8 2004, 01:55 PM
Democracy took hold in Yugoslavia about fifteen years ago too ...

Were you one of those who always argued that people in Eastern Europe didn't really want democracy? Democracy is spreading the world over. From less than you can count on one hand in 1776 to a world filled with them today. Sometimes that happened from within and sometimes it was imposed as the result of victory at war. What has happened is the democratic virus continues to spread.

I'm not so naive as to say I know what will happen, are you? I do wish the best for the Iraq and the rest of the world and representative government is superior to totalitarianism. Period.

PornoDoggy · 07-09-2004

Colin, I've never argued that people in Eastern Europe (or the Middle East) don't want democracy ... and while I wish nothing but peace and prosperity for the Iraqi people, I haven't owned a pair of rose-colored glasses since the 70s. I don't presume to know exactly what will happen, either.

However ... I think there are a lot of reasons to think the Yugosolvia comparison is accurate. The appearance of democracy may in fact be establishing a tenuous hold in Iraq. The inherent conditions on the ground in Iraq, bolstered by the failed policies of the Bush administration re the occupation, make the chances of that tenuous hold lasting rather tenuous at best.

aeon · 07-09-2004

Hopefully things will pan out like Eastern Europe. One more source of cheap content.

Almighty Colin · 07-12-2004

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill

Rome. Republic beginning in 509 BC (Livy)
Athens. Democracy beginning in 508 BC (Herodotus)

(Makes ya wonder if a later Roman historian made the founding of the Republic earlier than it was ;-) )

07-08-2004	#1
Almighty Colin Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,059	What the Toronto Star fails to recognize in this article is that people are criticizing government in Iraq and checks and balances are, for the first time in decades, being put into effect. Democracy is taking hold in Iraq. BAGHDAD—Iraqis welcomed a sweeping new security law eerily reminiscent of the Saddam-era police state, saying that only by restoring law and order can their new government lay a foundation for the freedom and democracy they hope will follow. The six-page national security law announced yesterday outlines a crackdown on crime and insurgents replete with the powers to eavesdrop, intercept mail, impose curfews and closures and to search and detain suspects — practices not seen since the fall of dictator Saddam Hussein 15 months ago. The announcement was underscored by a surge in violence in Baghdad, where a four-volley series of mortar strikes landed in a residential area near the home of Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. Pitched gun battles involving insurgents, fledgling Iraqi police and national guard troops followed. "We will soon reach a day when you can be safe inside your homes, in your streets, your employment situation will drastically improve and you will all be united without separation according to regions or religions," Allawi told reporters in the wake of the apparent assassination attempt. "However, for now we have a very important task ahead of us and that is to rid our country of these criminals and terrorists. Together we will succeed and we will prevail." Allawi's interim government had twice postponed the announcement of the new law in order to accommodate U.S. and Iraqi concerns that the appointed prime minister could use its powers to circumvent elections scheduled for January and remain in office indefinitely. As written, the emergency law includes several safeguards, including a requirement that Allawi must win the unanimous approval of his three-member Presidency Council — a group that represents the interests of Iraq's dominant Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish populations — before declaring a state of emergency in any given area. Baghdadis yesterday welcomed the announcement as the most dramatic sign yet that their government has a strategy for ending the rash of kidnappings, carjackings, murder, theft and assault that has plagued the capital since the fall of the former regime. But many stressed that while they welcome the crackdown, they demand it be fair — and temporary. "All we want is to feel safe," Saleh Manshed, 54, an unemployed veteran of the Iran-Iraq war, said yesterday in the predominately Shiite ghetto known as Sadr City. "We want the government to be strong, to frighten the criminals and terrorists. "And if they come and arrest me, let them. I have nothing to worry about because I am innocent." Manshed's comments were echoed by half a dozen men gathered amid a squalid strip of automotive machine shops. Across the street, fruit seller Suhil Ali, 42, was more cautious, wondering aloud how long such laws might be in effect. "If it is temporary, okay. But these laws don't serve people in the long term," said Ali. "It would be like we went through all of this for nothing. Things would be the same as under Saddam." In theory, the new national security law will remain nothing more than a piece of paper until such time as the Iraqi government declares a state of emergency within a defined geographical area. But during a drive through Baghdad yesterday, a carload of journalists, including this reporter, was detained for several minutes at an Iraqi police checkpoint in a manner significantly more aggressive than that seen in recent weeks. A policeman swinging a blackjack seized the driver's identity papers and threatened to arrest him on the grounds that a rear-window sun screen was hindering his attempts to look inside the car. Only after pleading with the officer, and insisting that the driver was ordered to raise the screen to conceal the car's non-Iraqi passengers, did he relent. Across town, workers in the upscale neighbourhood of Zeiyouna, known in Saddam's day as City of the Officers, offered mixed reactions. "Of course this is the right thing to do. Nobody will accept going back to the ways of Saddam, but as an Arab control, we also need strong laws to control the street," said Ivan Hermes Hanna, 23. "We are not like the Western world. We don't have the training to deal with democracy and personal freedom," said the ice cream parlour operator. "When the pressure of Saddam was lifted, some people thought freedom meant they could do whatever they wanted, including crime. "Instead, we need to make the transition step by step toward the goal of freedom." But a far more bleak assessment came from Saad Rashid, 27, co-owner of an Internet service company, who dismissed yesterday's announcement as "a piece of drama made for television." "I don't believe it will have any effect because our police are not independent, they are under the Americans. And all the Americans care about is fighting terrorists, not helping Iraqis," Rashid said. "I have very little information about the American system, but I believe it is better for them to take this war against terrorists to Iraq. "They created this battleground only for that reason. "And the Iraqi people are caught in the middle of it all." __________________ Almighty Content. Your one stop for live content. Secret Friends, LATINA Secret Friends , My Cam Friends

07-08-2004	#4
Meni Members Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,231	Iraq? is a fuckin joke you can't instill democracy where religion is KING i'm just happy Haliburton got the $7 BILLION FUCKIN DOLLARS aren't you? __________________ JennaCash is Now Features Clubjenna.com, ClubTera.com, and several TTBoy niche sites

07-08-2004	#5
PornoDoggy Cramming 3 people in a Room to Attend Show Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Amid the Cornfields of Illinois Posts: 5,366	Democracy took hold in Yugoslavia about fifteen years ago too ... __________________ SEX STORY TEXT Exotic Material for Adult Websites Available for part time (project or ongoing) work ...

07-08-2004	#7
Big Chop Members Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Sunny West Palm Beach Posts: 15	Its all about the Bling. __________________ Kong Cash

07-08-2004	#8
Meni Members Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,231	Mike, the greeks created democracy hahahahhaha so i have it up on you an dyou live in the south remember the 60s? dude history will show iraq was the biggest scam in history no WMDs, billions of dollars lining the bush family pockets cheney's boys making billions and for what? a civil war in Iraq coming 4 more soldiers died today wanna show the coffins? we can't let me know if you have any cousins who are 16 let em know the draft could be coming forget college learn arabic __________________ JennaCash is Now Features Clubjenna.com, ClubTera.com, and several TTBoy niche sites

07-08-2004	#3
chodadog Members Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 372	His nonsense would have been more believable had he not contradicted himself with facts. Facts are the enemy of journalists.

07-08-2004	#9
JFK Industry Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,371	"But many stressed that while they welcome the crackdown, they demand it be fair — and temporary." Yeah right, Temporary my ass! Once they have you by the balls its real hard to let go We are talking politicians here __________________ FUBAR Webmasters "The Next Best Thing to Being There"

07-08-2004	#11
Meni Members Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,231	windex does work __________________ JennaCash is Now Features Clubjenna.com, ClubTera.com, and several TTBoy niche sites

07-09-2004	#13
Almighty Colin Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,059	If we're talking 5th century BC, Athens was a Democracy but there was no "Greece". Sparta, in contrast, was a mixed form of government combining democracy and oligarchy. 5th Century BC Athens was about as close to direct democracy as one can get because it was a city-state and the population was a manageable size for direct voting. Many thousands of men would vote on actual issues in Athens. I believe 6000 men were required for the assembly but not sure on that as I am not home and no books :-(. Women couldn't vote. Public officials were chosen at random. When Athens might go to war the very men who would be going to war would vote on it. __________________ Almighty Content. Your one stop for live content. Secret Friends, LATINA Secret Friends , My Cam Friends

07-09-2004	#16
aeon Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 906	Hopefully things will pan out like Eastern Europe. One more source of cheap content.

07-12-2004	#17
Almighty Colin Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,059	"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill Rome. Republic beginning in 509 BC (Livy) Athens. Democracy beginning in 508 BC (Herodotus) (Makes ya wonder if a later Roman historian made the founding of the Republic earlier than it was ;-) ) __________________ Almighty Content. Your one stop for live content. Secret Friends, LATINA Secret Friends , My Cam Friends