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at the 1:40 showing today in overland park kansas it was standing room only.
at the end most of the audience stood and clapped. when we exited the theater the lobby was packed with people waiting for the next showing. no wonder the republican operatives are trying everything they can to stop it.
in my opinion it was a good documentary, and moore didn't do much beyond letting bush bury himself. i wasn't one of the ones clapping at the end; i felt absolutely pummeled by all the information it delivered.
there were laughs and tears. the looks the members of senate and congress give to moore when he suggests they enlist their own sons for iraq is priceless, but i found it hard to keep a dry eye when the mother of a fallen US soldier reads the last ever letter home from her son.
regardless of your political affiliation this is a very important movie and one that all americans should see.
Originally posted by eatapeach@Jun 25 2004, 02:10 PM i love how suddenly everyone is an expert on what a documentary is supposed to be
Quote:
Main Entry: 1doc·u·men·ta·ry
Pronunciation: "dä-ky&-'men-t&-rE, -'men-trE
Function: adjective
1 : being or consisting of documents : contained or certified in writing
2 : of, relating to, or employing documentation in literature or art; broadly : FACTUAL, OBJECTIVE
Main Entry: 1ob·jec·tive
Pronunciation: &b-'jek-tiv, äb-
Function: adjective
1 a : relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence -- used chiefly in medieval philosophy b : of, relating to, or being an object , phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind -- compare SUBJECTIVE 3a c of a symptom of disease : perceptible to persons other than the affected individual -- compare SUBJECTIVE 4c d : involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects , conditions, or phenomena
2 : relating to, characteristic of, or constituting the case of words that follow prepositions or transitive verbs 3 a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
synonym see MATERIAL, FAIR
Second time I heard this today. Earlier tonight was talking to a friend in a small and VERY Republican town in California. Same thing. 11am showing that hardly anyone goes to was sold out and standing ovation.
I do not really care for Bush or any other politician, however the fact that people watching a Michael Moore movie see it as "documentary" is really disturbing... Michael Moore present what people want to belive, he does not present the "facts" in a way so they are objectiv, so you can make up your own mind.
His movies are just like every other movie - a small world, where people can escape the real world for some time - sure you can feel inspired by a movie, you can feel sad by a movie - thats not fake feelings, however the tools the filmmaker used were not objectivity - they were subjectivity.
You might not agree with my Joseph Goebbels argument, because my argument was subjective... so if I was to make a movie where I draw "conclusions" between Joseph Goebbels and Michael Moore, then I would probably not see you in the standing ovation, however people who do not like Michael Moore will be, because I tell them what they want to belive...
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Someone please let me know when Micheal Moore makes a documentary
Also the release deal is with AMC theaters only - for whatever reason
Of course there is going to be standing ovations or at the very least a very positive response, only the target audience is going to see the film
Moore may make some interesting points but not too thrilled with how he presents them, Moore is as good at manipulation of people and the media as it gets
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this nails it on the head though, the irst hour-hour and a half were excellent, but then subjectivity replaced objectivity and it went downhill from there
one thin i can say tho, is that a LOT of people hate bush, and this movie is going to swing a lot of votes.
FWIW, i left early, it got too inaccurate, became too ad hominem for my tastes.
this nails it on the head though, the irst hour-hour and a half were excellent, but then subjectivity replaced objectivity and it went downhill from there
one thin i can say tho, is that a LOT of people hate bush, and this movie is going to swing a lot of votes.
FWIW, i left early, it got too inaccurate, became too ad hominem for my tastes.
Originally posted by eatapeach+Jun 25 2004, 05:10 PM-->
QUOTE (eatapeach @ Jun 25 2004, 05:10 PM)
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Originally posted by Dravyk@Jun 26 2004, 12:22 AM Second time I heard this today. Earlier tonight was talking to a friend in a small and VERY Republican town in California. Same thing. 11am showing that hardly anyone goes to was sold out and standing ovation.
I detect a pattern emerging.
I am going to go out on a limb and say the people seeing the movie on the first night it was released probably were not going to vote for Bush. They probably did not vote for Bush in 2000, and they probably think Bush stold the election from Gore.
The most Republican cities still have large segmeants of Democrats.
So I would not gauge anything by first weeks reponse.
I give props to Moore, has has done a great job servicing the alienated segment of the population, worked the hype machine perfectly, and is going to make a MINT!
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It's is only playing in AMC theaters (released by Lion's Gate)- currently you can't see it anywhere else
That ensures a crowd that is going out of their way to be able to see the film
Also it creates more hype for the film due the audiences that aren't able to see the film at this time
Try to see it in a Lowe's, Muvico or other theater - YOU CAN'T
I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?
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Originally posted by Vick@Jun 26 2004, 11:02 PM It's is only playing in AMC theaters (released by Lion's Gate)- currently you can't see it anywhere else
That ensures a crowd that is going out of their way to be able to see the film
not true
its also playing at Loews, yes same Loews cineplex now owned by Carlyle Group
But that's weird as the Muvico (which is one of the busiest theaters in the US) had advertised it here and when i asked why it wasn't playing this weekend they said it was in limited release
Maybe there's more to the story
Edit - also it's not playing at the lowe's here
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I haven't seen it yet but I don't think the film will have much of an effect on the election. There were three shows sold out at my local theater yesterday night by the way. I think the influence of Moore's film will be drowned out by all the other factors in play - the economy, Iraq, Osama (?), the debates, the conventions, other mass media influences, international terrorism, oil prices and so on.
A few points.
1. Moore's film is just noise in the big picture. The two biggest biggest factors in the election are likely to be the economy and security. There are so many outside factors in these two issues that predictability is impossible. People's opinions on the economy are split by voter intention. 4/5 of those who intend to vote for Kerry say the economy is only fair or poor. More than half of Bush's supporters rate the economy as good-excellent. On just that one factor, we're likely to see more of a factor than on a Moore movie which will be seen mostly, I think, by partisans. People watch Moore's film one time but watch FOX News or listen to Air America much more frequently. Book after book attacks "the liberals" or the "conservatives".
2. I think the movie was released too early to have much of an effect. Hell, Saddam was captured and even that historically significant event is having - I think - little effect on the election. It happened too long before the election.
3. The election is already the most polarized ever. Bush has an 86% approval among Republicans and 14% among Democrats. As Grimm pointed out, a lot of voters "hate Bush". I'd have to guess that the people cheering at the film would be in a "hate Bush" category. Grimm pointed out that the movie will swing a lot of votes but also mentioned that he left the theater early so I'm curious as to which voters will be swung, in his opinion. The independents, I guess? Maybe that is true.
Maybe Gallup will do a poll. Just watch next week's poll. Will Kerry get a bump from the movie? If so, wouldn't it be drowned out quickly by the effects of Kerry's choice of running mate, the convention speeches, and world and domestic events? Will Kerry choose a strong running mate who can give him some Southern states? Most people have seen Kerry only a little. When they begin to tune in will they like his personality and his message? Will the jobs picture continue to get better or retract? Will Iraq look any safer in November than it does today?
The single biggest argument you could make in favor of the movie influencing the election is the closeness of the race - which is a decent argument. So could the movie influence enough swing voters in a state like Florida, for example, to vote Kerry? I still doubt it given the above arguments.
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Originally posted by Vick@Jun 26 2004, 11:02 PM I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?
Whoops!!
Looks like it will likely be the #1 movie over the weekend and the per screen average is quite amazing.
Originally posted by Colin@Jun 27 2004, 09:54 AM I haven't seen it yet but I don't think the film will have much of an effect on the election. There were three shows sold out at my local theater yesterday night by the way. I think the influence of Moore's film will be drowned out by all the other factors in play - the economy, Iraq, Osama (?), the debates, the conventions, other mass media influences, international terrorism, oil prices and so on.
A few points.
1. Moore's film is just ......
Colin.... Many people would rather see the movie than read (your) the book. (of a post)...
Therefore, I believe the movie will have a bigger impact than you think.
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Originally posted by Evil Chris@Jun 27 2004, 02:57 PM Colin.... Many people would rather see the movie than read (your) the book. (of a post)...
Therefore, I believe the movie will have a bigger impact than you think.
So do you predict a big swing in the next gallup poll to Kerry? I bet ya that Kerry gets a bigger bump from the Democratic National Convention than he does from this movie. In fact, it's possible that Kerry could get a runaway lead after the Convention IF moderate Republicans and independents like what he has to say. I don't think that possibility exists from the Moore movie.
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Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Jun 27 2004, 10:24 AM Looks like it will likely be the #1 movie over the weekend and the per screen average is quite amazing.
The movie will confirm what people already beleive.
Bush is Hitler or Moore is a bafoon.
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Originally posted by Colin@Jun 27 2004, 05:54 AM I haven't seen it yet but I don't think the film will have much of an effect on the election. There were three shows sold out at my local theater yesterday night by the way. I think the influence of Moore's film will be drowned out by all the other factors in play - the economy, Iraq, Osama (?), the debates, the conventions, other mass media influences, international terrorism, oil prices and so on.
A few points.
1. Moore's film is just noise in the big picture. The two biggest biggest factors in the election are likely to be the economy and security. There are so many outside factors in these two issues that predictability is impossible. People's opinions on the economy are split by voter intention. 4/5 of those who intend to vote for Kerry say the economy is only fair or poor. More than half of Bush's supporters rate the economy as good-excellent. On just that one factor, we're likely to see more of a factor than on a Moore movie which will be seen mostly, I think, by partisans. People watch Moore's film one time but watch FOX News or listen to Air America much more frequently. Book after book attacks "the liberals" or the "conservatives".
2. I think the movie was released too early to have much of an effect. Hell, Saddam was captured and even that historically significant event is having - I think - little effect on the election. It happened too long before the election.
3. The election is already the most polarized ever. Bush has an 86% approval among Republicans and 14% among Democrats. As Grimm pointed out, a lot of voters "hate Bush". I'd have to guess that the people cheering at the film would be in a "hate Bush" category. Grimm pointed out that the movie will swing a lot of votes but also mentioned that he left the theater early so I'm curious as to which voters will be swung, in his opinion. The independents, I guess? Maybe that is true.
Maybe Gallup will do a poll. Just watch next week's poll. Will Kerry get a bump from the movie? If so, wouldn't it be drowned out quickly by the effects of Kerry's choice of running mate, the convention speeches, and world and domestic events? Will Kerry choose a strong running mate who can give him some Southern states? Most people have seen Kerry only a little. When they begin to tune in will they like his personality and his message? Will the jobs picture continue to get better or retract? Will Iraq look any safer in November than it does today?
The single biggest argument you could make in favor of the movie influencing the election is the closeness of the race - which is a decent argument. So could the movie influence enough swing voters in a state like Florida, for example, to vote Kerry? I still doubt it given the above arguments.
I did leave the theater early. the abrupt left turn and rhetoric was getting repettive, and the stunts that were pulled unrealistic (a congressman cannot sign his son/daughter up for the military, so the dumbfounded look on the ongressmans face needed to be viewed in that light, a more "what the hell are you talking about" than, "i wouldnt send my children to the military", eletist spin he was looking for., and it was getting past 3:30 in the morning, and i was growing tired of the second half of the movie.
I do think this will swing a fair amount of votes, simply because the first hour and a half paints very clearly the overt deception and blatant idiocy on both sides of the ticket. so if anything this film will put fence riders in the mood for change across the board. anything they can change they probably will, right or wrong. right or left. so the independent vote may shift over to Kerry. Th footage of bush catering to his rich buddies and ignoring or being just plain oblivious to the middle class may insult his real "core", working class america. but again, colin is right, people look at their bottom line and the things that are important to them. Are tehy stable, is their neighborhood and schools safe for their kids. Is there enough money for a decent christmas, are taxes going up or down. A lot of the middle class, IMHO, is up in the air. I know the upper brackets saw a major decrease in federal tax, but the middle and lower brackets saw a much smaller change, proportionally. But that has been a Republican way of doing things, dating back to even before "Trickle Down Economics". an you can argue back and forth about whether that worked'till the cows come home, there is just no way to quantify it, too many mitigating factors over the years.
The fact that we are debating the efect a movie will have on our presidency, just shows you how little regard for the state of politcs in this nation will be there come November 2
Originally posted by grimm+Jun 27 2004, 08:41 PM-->
QUOTE (grimm @ Jun 27 2004, 08:41 PM)
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Been away for a few days, relaxing and ignoring things... was surprised to see how much of an effect F/911 is having in the US.
22 Million opening weekend is huge, the reactions (as reported here and elsewhere) seem to be all in the "very big" category, and I have had two people email me today and recommend I go see it.
It will almost certainly drop quickly in the next couple of weeks, except that limited release should keep the dollars per screen up for a while.
Will it have an effect on the election? Considering the plan is to have this OUT of the theaters and into DVD release just in time for the election period, I think you will see the issues raised in the movie becoming talking points between now and then, and having a definate influence on the agenda, at least short term.
More importantly, it arms pro-Kerry people with a bunch of "why bush is a loser" points without kerry having to say them - little potential for negative back spin on this one.
I would like to point out that months and months of negative campaigning from the Bush side has done little to change the polls, only the death of the beloved Ronald Reagan was able to boost him temporarily. Other than that, it seems that Kerry is playing the best hand right now by just tossing out low cards and letting Bush put himself into the light as the attack dog candidate. It isn't working, and the last Bush ad I saw was actually a positive pro-Bush ad rather than an attack on kerry.
F/911 just points out the shortcomings, as someone said, letting Bush dig himself into a hole.
Anyone hear that they have asked Cheney to step down, not be on the ticket? They are trying to push up someone to replace Bush after the next term...
Alex
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I could have gone on, but figured nobody wants to read long posts or see long movies when the rhetoric get repetitive, right colin
I like the ripples of this whole controversial cannonball and what it says about our nation, i this is a thing of importance. I went to see a good film, was disappointed to a degree, I did not go to learn anything that wasnt already publicly aailable and being shoved through ever available orafice by every form of media.
The applause killed me. those were definitly th bush haters, because it wasnt LOL applause, it was "go get em" media lynching party sort of clapping
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 27 2004, 09:08 PM I would like to point out that months and months of negative campaigning from the Bush side has done little to change the polls, only the death of the beloved Ronald Reagan was able to boost him temporarily.
Hmmm, well Bush has lead all the way until just a few months ago and that change has come mostly from people's perception of the war in Iraq not going well. Bush lead all the way until mid Feb. Kerry lead from about mid February until a few weeks ago. Now it is tied. There was a fair rise in the past month of people's perception of the economy so that is probably the cause of Bush's rise. Perception always lags on the economy.
I believe you said once that the election is Kerry's to win or lose but I think it is more in Bush's hands, as the incumbent, than Kerrys. As Iraq and the economy go, if you consider those "in Bush's hands", will go the Bush campaign. Kerry's greatest influence on the election will come from his performance at the Democratic National Convention and his choice of running mate. It's possible Kerry could jump ahead a good amount at the convention but difficult to guess because of the extremely polarized electorate.
I think most people are either voting "For Bush" or "Against Bush".
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Colin, in the last few weeks there has been that halo effect from the whole Reagan thing. Beloved republican, blah blah blah... Pretty much all the pundits have said there would be a boost, at least short term.
The return of Iraq as a sovereign nation will certainly help as well, as it gives the impression that "the war is over". That will last until more US troops die. Having that hostage killed on the same day certainly took away from the strength of the move. Overall, there will still be a short term boost.
However, unless there is a major reduction in the number of troops in Iraq before the election, I suspect you will see Kerry hitting on the fact that "the war isn't over, our soldiers are still at risk and still dying in Iraq"
The MM effect will be harder to guage... and he gets two bites at the apple, as the DVD will be release before the election...
Alex
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Originally posted by Vick@Jun 26 2004, 08:02 PM Please allow me to try to explain this again
Fahrenheit 911 is in a LIMITED RELEASE
It's is only playing in AMC theaters (released by Lion's Gate)- currently you can't see it anywhere else
That ensures a crowd that is going out of their way to be able to see the film
Also it creates more hype for the film due the audiences that aren't able to see the film at this time
Try to see it in a Lowe's, Muvico or other theater - YOU CAN'T
I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?
AMC is currently the largest movie theater chain in the nation, perched on buying out Loews.
Lionsgate is on of the largest independent film producers.
F9/11 grossed 22 mil in 3 days, audience of 3-4 million.
I dont see where the argument is, people went to see it, it made money at teh largest single set of theaters in the country. If this was shrek 2, would you argue the same argument?
06-25-2004
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