Bush is trying to save the middle east!

[Mike AI]

I was thinking last night after Bush's speech. Bush is trying to save the middle east. By going to war and confronting terrorist now in the middle east we are contributing to the future security of the world.

If we just continued the way we were going prior to 9-11, we would eventually have seen a mega-attack on the US.

What would happend if terrorsit set off a chemical, biological, dirty bomb attack in a major city? New York, Chicago, LA, Miami, Atlanta, Houston.

What if there were tens of thousands, maybe hundrededs of thousands killed and injured??

I think the outrage would be so, that the population in the US would be in the streets demanding the complete destruction of the middle east. We are a nation that dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan, turning the middle east into a parking lot would not be beyond us if such a terrorist attack would happen.

By intervening now, we can hopefully combat terrorism and those responsible before a major attack like this is commited upon our fellow citizens. Bush is trying to handle business while there is wiggle room, and put down terrorism before it turns into a situation that no President can control.

[Evil Chris]

MikeAI - Michael Moore.

Which one is bizarro Mike?

[LadyMischief]

If you REALLY think that the US invading is going to change the entire nature and religion of the middle east, you are dead wrong, and apparently haven't studied history too well. The way people are there now is the way they have been for thousands of years, and all the US invasion has done is make them unite behind ONE cause... Killing Americans. At least before, the tribes were too busy being at war with each other to be able to get REALLY organized enough to be a true threat.

Good job.

[VooMan]

You make a good point LadyMischief, but they did have enough time to get organized and take out two of the largest buildings in the US, and try for a couple more...

This whole mess sucks bigtime. And I think it's going to get a whole lot uglier before it can possibly get any better...

[Mike AI]

Chris, Lady, what do you think the response would be from the US if terrorist killed 50,000 Americans? 100k? 300k? It is a potential threat.

Do you think we would just sit on our hands? Pin point strikes?

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 25 2004, 09:41 AM
Chris, Lady, what do you think the response would be from the US if terrorist killed 50,000 Americans? 100k? 300k? It is a potential threat.

Do you think we would just sit on our hands? Pin point strikes?

with President like Bush,
sonofabitches KNOW darn well,
countries will be inahilated,
we set the precedent withy Afganistan and Iraq.

...and this is why the fuckers don't dare as long as Bush is President and hate him for their impotence.

[RawAlex]

Mike, the harder you hit these people, the meaner and uglier they get. Terrorist types will fight to their last breath, and they will take out many more of your team than they will of their team.

They will hide amoungst civilians, in churches and mosques, and will play dirty, because they haven't signed up to the "gentlemen's rules of war".

The harder you hit them, the more determined they will be to get back at you. Ask the Israelis, they know how it goes. They cannot win that war until every single palestinian is dead, because someone is going to strap a bomb onto themselves and get on a bus...

You can scare and frighten someone into submission, but you cannot take the fight out of them like that, you make them hate you more, and they work harder and more effectively to show that hate.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Serge, the real terrorists don't care about countries... you can blow their stuff up, they usually aren't where the troops are.

They can wait, they are patient. 9/11 didn't happen in a week. They are planning way further ahead than the US military is these days.

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 25 2004, 09:56 AM
Mike, the harder you hit these people, the meaner and uglier they get. Terrorist types will fight to their last breath, and they will take out many more of your team than they will of their team.

They will hide amoungst civilians, in churches and mosques, and will play dirty, because they haven't signed up to the "gentlemen's rules of war".

The harder you hit them, the more determined they will be to get back at you. Ask the Israelis, they know how it goes. They cannot win that war until every single palestinian is dead, because someone is going to strap a bomb onto themselves and get on a bus...

You can scare and frighten someone into submission, but you cannot take the fight out of them like that, you make them hate you more, and they work harder and more effectively to show that hate.

Alex

Alex,
are you telling me those people have more than Japanese had????

you overestimate and fatasize too much,
look at FACTS and HISTORY instead.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 25 2004, 09:57 AM
Serge, the real terrorists don't care about countries... you can blow their stuff up, they usually aren't where the troops are.

They can wait, they are patient. 9/11 didn't happen in a week. They are planning way further ahead than the US military is these days.

Alex

sure, but the new generation of terrorists will be embedded into the parking lot formerly called.....The Middle Eastern Country

[RawAlex]

Serge, no these people have LESS than the japanese, and don't care to lose it. It isn't about living on the world, it is about being with Allah. Trying to put things into a materialistic context isn't going to explain things.

Hiroshima type death toll wouldn't be enough to stop them. It would just piss them off more. There is no way the US is going to get into a wholesale death scenerio with any part of the middle east, and I know they wouldn't do anything to risk contaminating or radiating the oil supply :-)

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 25 2004, 10:12 AM
Serge, no these people have LESS than the japanese, and don't care to lose it. It isn't about living on the world, it is about being with Allah. Trying to put things into a materialistic context isn't going to explain things.

Hiroshima type death toll wouldn't be enough to stop them. It would just piss them off more. There is no way the US is going to get into a wholesale death scenerio with any part of the middle east, and I know they wouldn't do anything to risk contaminating or radiating the oil supply :-)

Alex

Alex, once again your lack of knowledge of history just amazes me!

How many Japanese died as suicide pilots?

How many have they lost at Iojima?


you have no clue about Japanese view of heroic death and lack of materialism when it comes to the subject and Japoan's century old samurai warrior code.

Don't they teach you about ti in Canadien school system?

you were in Japan and you wasted the perfect opportunity to learn about the people.

[DrGuile]

Im sorry, but how is Iraq related to 9/11?

say something often enough and it becomes true?

[Vick]

Alex - let me break it down and simplify

There are terrorists who (may) have the USA as a target
These terrorists will not stop

What choice do we (the USA) have except to eradicate these terrorist or acquiesce to their demands and lifestyles?

Think we are beyond the point of placating or negation

[SykkBoy]

I'm amazed people aren't more concerned about the impending race war that's ready to break out here at any moment.

The Aryan Nation has been very quiet of late and that's never a good sign.

Mike Nicols could get the death penalty. The White Right already has Timothy McVeigh as a martyr and Nicols would be another if he gets the death penalty without giving anyone else up.

While we're busy chasing down the arab boogeyman, we might get surprised by some of our own good upstanding Christian sons declaring it's own war on America.

[Almighty Colin]

I think the question at hand is whether you can get everyone in the Islamic Middle East to identify with being Arab (ethnic), Iraqi or Saudi (state), or Democracy (government type) rather than being a sharia following Muslim. I don't know the answer to whether that is possible. Up against a lot of history there. Maybe too much. But who knows?

Turkey is a positive example though that came from within and that land is not completely free of terrorism but people certainly identify with these other institutions enough that no one ever worries about Turkish terrorists (though there are some).

If Iraq looks like Turkey in 20 years and the goal is as Mike says I'd say that's a hell of a success. If it looks like Syria in twenty years I'd say it's a failure.



Last edited by Colin at May 25 2004, 10:36 AM

[PornoDoggy]

Serge ... do you think that the Chechian rebels would stop fighting the Russians if the Russians nuc'd Grozny? I think you know enough history to realize that there were elements of the Japanese High Command that didn't want to surrender even after the two atom bombs were dropped.

Trying to "scare" terrorists out of being terrorists sells well to a domestic audience, but as a tactical doctrine it's just not very effective. Ask General Giap.

Mike ... that's just silly. Plain old silly.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by DrGuile@May 25 2004, 10:29 AM
Im sorry, but how is Iraq related to 9/11?

say something often enough and it becomes true?

Communist.

[Jesse_DD]

Mike - I agree. Of course it is a very complicated situation - but your overall premise I agree with. The bottom line is that whether we went over to Iraq or not is not going to immediately change the way extreme Islamists feel about America. But, I for one, would rather be proactive in trying to democratize the situation in hopes that it has a long term positive effect. The other option is that we kept going like we were (band-aiding the situation) and forever make ourselves the target of the Extremists.

Do we make ourselves more of a target initially? - probably. But, is it a better long term scenario? I believe so.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@May 25 2004, 10:37 AM
Serge ... do you think that the Chechian rebels would stop fighting the Russians if the Russians nuc'd Grozny? I think you know enough history to realize that there were elements of the Japanese High Command that didn't want to surrender even after the two atom bombs were dropped.

Trying to "scare" terrorists out of being terrorists sells well to a domestic audience, but as a tactical doctrine it's just not very effective. Ask General Giap.

Mike ... that's just silly. Plain old silly.

I didn't say anything about sacre...
I said let's kill all the motherfuckers including the next generations of motheruckers.

[Jesse_DD]

BTW - people are always going to hate the #1 - just live with it people!!!

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@May 25 2004, 10:40 AM
I didn't say anything about sacre...
I said let's kill all the motherfuckers including the next generations of motheruckers.

Define all, Serge ...

all muslims?

all terrorists?

all the people who don't think like you?

[RawAlex]

Serge, I learned way more about their culture than you can imagine. I am a certifiable asianphile, and I am VERY aware of many of the parts that make up their culture. Old subtitled japanese samurai movies are very enjoyable to watch. Their culture even today is an amazing mix of old and new, traditional and modern, self control and the always present quest to keep your 'cho'.

They are an intelligent people, and the US action in Hiroshima and nagasake was more then enough to show the people that they could lose. There was much loss of cho during that time, and that powerful force is part of what lead to the japan we know today. However, just like a recovered drug addict, the addiction to power and war isn't far under the surface, as you tell from reactions to comments made by North Korea in the last couple of years.

The middle east is different. For the most part, these cultures are still in the warrior / king / clan / warlord stage of development, so that while they may have pretty buildings, big cities, and functional economies, they are still dependant on this clan type system as part of their lives. They fight amoungst themselves, with others, and with other countries. They have for centuries, and they aren't planning to stop any time soon.

Israel has taken more than enough actions that should have stopped these groups a long time ago. Their leaders have been killed, their houses bombed and bulldozed, and their land systematically taken away, yet they fight on, often more effective than in the past.

These people have no cho - just the upholding of their clan's place in the world. There is no personal respect or position in life that is important, only that of their group.

Japanese will stop when they lose cho. That is exactly what happened. The Arabs of the middle east don't have cho, don't know when to stop.

Don't think so? Ask Yassir Arafat, who has slowly but surely blustered and bullied his way to less and less land, less and less control, and less and less freedom for his people. There have been land deals on the table in the last 10-15 years that would have made a very decent size palestinian state, and now they have almost nothing left to work from.

Their hatred of the Israelis goes beyond logic, beyond saving face, beyond cho.

To think that the rest of the arab world is suddenly going to pull a "japan" is beyond concept. Herding cats and guiding programmers would be easier.

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy+May 25 2004, 10:44 AM-->