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Come on Buff we all know Bush is desperate, he had Rummy and Ashcroft plant it on some poor Iraqis.
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Buff, a shell rigged as a bomb... the shells are the same as used in the north and in the Iran -Iraq war many years ago. It will be interesting to see if there is a discussion of this as "new stock" or "very old stock"...
Alex
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It'll be interesting to see where it originated. I read an article that says it's the old style artillery shell that Saddam used to have, etc. I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions at this stage, but it looks interesting to say the least.
Originally posted by OldJeff@May 17 2004, 09:30 AM 155 mm Howitzer round, hmmmmmmm, what country uses 155 mm rounds ?
Soviets ?, no thier's is 152
Obviously this proves the Bush was right and Iraq was such a threat seeing on how easy it is to smuggle 1700 lbs cannons into the US.
I thought Oprano was a no spin zone ?
OldJeff, howtizer shells are not born with WMDs in them. Who ever loaded the shell with it, probably has some extra lying around.
From what I remeber Sarin does not last to long out on its own and in the heat.
This could be from old stock....
I still have no doubt that Saddam had or THOUGHT he had WMDs. The WORLD thought he did. There was no debate before hand about WMDs being in Iraq.
They are hidden somewhere, maybe in Syria, and/or were destroyed during build up to war.
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Buff, a shell rigged as a bomb... the shells are the same as used in the north and in the Iran -Iraq war many years ago. It will be interesting to see if there is a discussion of this as "new stock" or "very old stock"...
Alex
Alex, in case ytou forgot....the "old stock" was allegedly destroyed....where the fuck THIS shit came from?
Gremlins???
Originally posted by OldJeff@May 17 2004, 09:30 AM 155 mm Howitzer round, hmmmmmmm, what country uses 155 mm rounds ?
Soviets ?, no thier's is 152
Obviously this proves the Bush was right and Iraq was such a threat seeing on how easy it is to smuggle 1700 lbs cannons into the US.
I thought Oprano was a no spin zone ?
Tony Soprano would send you to the hospital...as he did in previous episode when soembody didn't pay attention to his "news" that 99% of containers coming to USA via ports are not inspected.
Foxnews just came on and said that mustard gas shells were found 2 weeks ago.
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Originally posted by Mike AI@May 17 2004, 06:18 AM Come on Buff we all know Bush is desperate, he had Rummy and Ashcroft plant it on some poor Iraqis.
Exactly, and truth be told, what convienient coincedence again eh Mike..
plus FYI buff, the shell was a single occurance, and it was from those old pre 1991 gulf war stock plies, that mister donald rumsfeld gave to Saddam to fight the itranians, ( that would be the same iranians we were doing weapons deals with in order to ad the contras, in case you missed that part of history)
I mean come on if you find an illegal AK- 47 automatic weapon from some US soldier that stole it from an old base where they were kept before they were destroyed, does that mean that WOW the US civilians ALL have these crazy weapons that are illegal?
it is ONE shell!
and furthermore, since there is no way to detect a smell, or sight, or taste of this sarin gas, what means did they test it with? are we now testing every single bullet shell in a desperate hope to have some merrit to the pack of lies we have been told from the beginning? a little too convienent for me..
but WTF I am just some dumb ass liberal right? use your brains man, look deeper..
I agree with you that Saddam's WMS were not direct threats to the US. However after 9-11, there was a fundamental shift in the world, or at least for the US.
I do not think Bush went into Iraq to increase his or his friends personal wealth. I think Bush's intentions were honorable.
There is no doubt that tribal conflicts will continue in Iraq for a long time, the borders were randomly drawn up.
Maybe we need to break up Iraq into a few different countries. I know the Turks would be pissed if we gave the Kurds their own country.
There are no simple answers.
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Myth -- Saddam Hussein has no weapons of mass destruction.
What do you think Anthrax, Botulism, Smallpox and Sarin are -- a law firm? A dessert? Nuclear devices are not the only weapons of mass destruction. These germs and gases are DEADLY. We know from defecting Iraqi scientists that he has mobile germ warfare labs.
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WASHINGTON — Secretary of State Colin Powell said yesterday that what he had called "the most dramatic" element of his Feb. 5, 2003, speech to the United Nations was "inaccurate and discredited."
The presentation, considered a key in convincing allies and the American people that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, claimed the existence of mobile biological-weapons laboratories.
"When I made that presentation in February 2003, it was based on the best information that the Central Intelligence Agency made available to me," Powell said yesterday on NBC's "Meet the Press."
"It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading. And for that, I am disappointed, and I regret it," he said.
Originally posted by OldJeff@May 17 2004, 09:30 AM 155 mm Howitzer round, hmmmmmmm, what country uses 155 mm rounds ?
Soviets ?, no thier's is 152
Obviously this proves the Bush was right and Iraq was such a threat seeing on how easy it is to smuggle 1700 lbs cannons into the US.
I thought Oprano was a no spin zone ?
it's going to be interesting for sure. Everyone knew he(saddam)had some, most I feel were destoryed or sent to syria or someplace. now they mabe heading back to iraq.
hey Jeff, can you contact me please sir, I havent heard from anyone there and it's starting to really concern me
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lets say a guy works for a police department, say, in the south of the US. While on the job, he busts a guy with three guns on him. Two larger weapons, and a smaller, almost "mini" gun. The police guy declares the two big guns, and keeps himself a drop piece for later use. two years later he has to pop a guy that might be threatening him in a alley, and he uses the little drop piece to make it look like the loser had a gun on him.
Now, let's put it in context:
lets say this guy works at a place that produces WMD. The order has come down, more than 10 years ago, to make it all disappear. At that time, the guy gets rid of 99% of the weapons, but he takes a few and hides them under a rock, in his back yard, or maybe under his camel shed. 10 years later, the country is overrun by americans, so he pulls out a few of these old toys and tries to use them to kill him a few of those imperialist pig dogs.
it all depends how you look at it.
Alex
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Originally posted by Colin@May 17 2004, 11:57 AM Hmmm, there's really not enough information on this yet to draw a conclusion.
Very true.
How many times have there been "definitive" finds like this?
How many times have they admitted later that "we made a mistake?"
Even a moron knows that a news release like this can cause "your average "joe sixpack" [tp] think we've accomplished something" And it's fairly common knowledge that a retraction will end up on page 30 under the ag report.
Example - how many people are still convinced that we have a bunch of Muslim spies from the military under investigation, in spite of the fact that charges have been dropped against all of them to date?
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i would hardly say that finding "something" is the same as "we need to go to war because these fuckers are very dangerous and are threatening the world"
so far in the WMD game... Blix, France and Germany are right... USA wrong.
Originally posted by JR@May 17 2004, 02:47 PM i would hardly say that finding "something" is the same as "we need to go to war because these fuckers are very dangerous and are threatening the world"
so far in the WMD game... Blix, France and Germany are right... USA wrong.
sucks to be us.
JR how were they right?
From what I have read before the war all 3 thought Iraq had WMDs. There only arguement was that we should stick to sanctions and inspections rather then going to war.
If Iraq has no WMDs, the WORLD was wrong, Saddam was wrong....
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Right because none of their boys and girls had to die to prove it?
Right because while they had reports and information, they didn't feel it was enough to go to war over?
I could go on... I am just sort of working on the idea of agreeing with JR... it's having an effect on me.
Alex
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I would go further to say that the arguement of Germany and Blix and others that the inspections process was working and as a result, most of Iraq's weapons were destroyed was more correct that the arguement(s) of Bush and Blair.
I am not saying the UN was a perfect solution or has been through the 90's. I am saying that in this case, history most likely will side with them.
WMD's or no WMD's,....Hussein was a cancer as well as anyone who supported him. Consider the US and their Allies like Kemo....
If you think the US is wrong for going to war with IRAQ, that is your opinion. Just remember one thing, you are "FREE" to have that opinion as oppose to some poor peasant in IRAQ who under the dictatorship of Hussein ever expressed an opinion against their Gov't (I use the term Gov't loosly) would have had his head lopped off and handed to his family on a platter.
Buff, I don't suck dick
Bush sucks
face it dude
he's a horrible president
ok BUFFY
why didn't he go UNDER OATH when he spoke to the 9/11 commission
MR RELIGIOUS wouldn't swear to GOD?
fuck him
Originally posted by Alex From San Diego@May 17 2004, 02:37 PM WMD's or no WMD's,....Hussein was a cancer as well as anyone who supported him. Consider the US and their Allies like Kemo....
I think you could more accurately say "The US and their allies are the kemo therapy that was given even though no cancer was found"
well any bush lovers can please post here and tell why
no transcript
no oath
no audio video
and he had to have cheney with him
BULL SHIT
BULL SHIT
BULL SHIT
fuck HIM
And does he speak to God/Jesus by cell phone? landline? net?
he's special jesus talks directly to him
waiting for the rapture
Bush is going to Heaven
are you?
Originally posted by Meni@May 17 2004, 03:36 PM well any bush lovers can please post here and tell why
no transcript
no oath
no audio video
and he had to have cheney with him
BULL SHIT
BULL SHIT
BULL SHIT
fuck HIM
And does he speak to God/Jesus by cell phone? landline? net?
he's special jesus talks directly to him
waiting for the rapture
Bush is going to Heaven
are you?
because he does not have to Meni. It is not to his political advantage to testify. stop being an idiot. you think you are making a point and in reality people are tuning you out.
Originally posted by Alex From San Diego@May 17 2004, 03:51 PM
ok...so are you saying Hussein was a good guy? Are you also saying he didn't carry out atrocities against his own people especially the the people that maybe voiced their opinion against him?.....
I think maybe you should travel to the middle east and let us know the quality of life in that region.
The world is more than your 10x10 room with the shades pulled down sitting in front of a computer....
People are so quick to say the US is wrong and the US is this but the first sign of any trouble, everyone wants us to come to their aid....
I am not saying Saddam Hussein was a good guy. No one agrees that he is. The conversation is not about whether or not Saddam Hussein was a good guy or not or the quality of life in the Middle East. That is your way of deflecting attention from a losing argument.
The conversation was simply about WMD's and my remarks were about whether or not it was necessary to invade Iraq because of WMD's. My opinion was no. Simple.
Alex, quite simple, Hussein was an ass, a despot meglomanic moron oppressing a whole nation... but that wasn't why the US went to Iraq.
The US went to Iraq for WMD and a supposed link to Al qaeda.
Neither was found.
The surgery was a success. The patient died.
US military official I heard on the radio today said that it is likely that the person(s) who placed this weapon had no idea of the contents, it was likely something pulled out of an ammo dump somewhere. Rigging up this type of shell with a trigger is a very common way to make roadside bombs at this point.
Alex
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Originally posted by RawAlex@May 17 2004, 04:08 PM Alex, quite simple, Hussein was an ass, a despot meglomanic moron oppressing a whole nation... but that wasn't why the US went to Iraq.
The US went to Iraq for WMD and a supposed link to Al qaeda.
Neither was found.
The surgery was a success. The patient died.
US military official I heard on the radio today said that it is likely that the person(s) who placed this weapon had no idea of the contents, it was likely something pulled out of an ammo dump somewhere. Rigging up this type of shell with a trigger is a very common way to make roadside bombs at this point.
Alex
ok...so you are saying wait and see what he did before we went in?
He balked at our warnings...plain and simple. He called our bluff and we delivered a message to him and let that be a warning to any other dictator who thinks they can govern a country by strongarming their citizens.
Two former weapons inspectors — Hans Blix and David Kay — said the shell was likely a stray weapon that had been scavenged by militants and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles of such weapons.
Kimmitt said he believed that insurgents who planted the explosive didn't know it contained the nerve agent.
I don't give a fuck about this right wing board
Have you seen me post lately?
I saw my NAME in the thread so I clicked it
otherwise stay with your right wing religious zealot Bush
I hope it get dropped in November http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ows/jesus/view/
"One power with a president who has no foresight and cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust... Why is the United States behaving so arrogantly?... All that (Bush) wants is Iraqi oil."
Nelson Mandela, 30-Jan-03
Originally posted by Alex From San Diego@May 17 2004, 08:02 PM ok...so you are saying wait and see what he did before we went in?
He balked at our warnings...plain and simple. He called our bluff and we delivered a message to him and let that be a warning to any other dictator who thinks they can govern a country by strongarming their citizens.
Wow, that's pretty profound. Did you get that from Our Weekly Reader, or what?
Do you think that's really going to deter any dictators from strongarming their citizens?
Do you think that an Iraq crawling with real live genuine alQaida types really makes things safter for the U.S. than Saddam's occassional ineffective firing of a missle at our planes in his own air space?
Do you really think that a poorly planned and even more poorly executed occupation is going to make the U.S. safer?
"Calling bluffs" and "delivering messages" is great for the 6th grade playground - or sleazy bars, if you're over 21 but still thinking like a 6th grader. It's place in international relations is a little more suspect than that.
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One shell with some sarin gas might remind us all that maybe there is more out there but it doesn't, in my mind, justify the WMD argument to go to war. Now, maybe Bush should have used a different argument. War would have been as justifiable on the argument of Saddam's continual defiance. It would have even been as justifiable to say "We're going to rid the world of an evil dictator". I'm not saying it would be justifiable to everyone - just that it would be as justifiable. But Bush hung it all on the WMD argument. This set up the possibility of failure. To me, it seems this was the case because Bush, Cheney, and Tenet especially were so certain that Saddam had WMD they were willing to bet it all on that fact. If you believe Bob Woodward's new book, Saddam's past behaviors entered largely into that equation. Saddam has the final laugh - maybe.
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Colin, that is what I never understood. Bush decided to hang his "war" hat on the most outrageous and least provable claims, and those claims divided the world on the subject. All the fancy naming (coalition of the willing) tried to cover up that only a few countries would really send any noticable forces to the front.
I guess at the end of the day, there was no other way to have this war, the words and the gestures made on both sides pretty much ended up suckering Bush into it. One too many "oh yeahs", he didn't leave himself many options. No war? America would be laughed at for years to come.
I just wish Bush hadn't been so dead set on tackling Hussein so abruptly. It shows a certain lack of strategy...
Alex
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05-17-2004
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