The correct prepective from iraq

dantheman · 05-10-2004

hey guys, just a update from a fellow marine in country, It's a little long and if you dont care about what's happening there, skip and go to the thread on post counts ; )

--------
Location: Camp Habbaniyah, Iraq

Life, as I've said many times before, could be a lot worse! And I'm not talking in vague genralities here, I mean MY life could very easily be VERY much worse than it is now. Take, for instance, the very fact that I'm writing in this blog and the very long string of implications that carries: a computer, connectivity, electricity, time, a roof over my head, a lack of bullet holes and their attendant sepsis, the phenominal number of bullets, both real and figurative, that I've dodged in the past, the ones (figurative only... another pleasant set of circumstances) that I HAVE taken but that have only wounded me and set me moving in other directions, etc., etc., etc.

Let's move beyond me (as much as I like talking about myself) and look at the land I'm currently living in: Iraq. It could be a lot worse here, too, for the average "Joe Iraqi" or "Hadji" as we call them. We, America and the Coalition, have, should we choose to use it, the ability kill every man, woman and child we encounter and most of those we don't. We haven't. And this is due entirely to our own internal codes, checks and balances, not because of any supposed heroic defense of the Hadji Homeland. I once read a great short story (by Littledove, I think) about an alternate history in which the Germans did much better in WWII than in our reality. The story was about how this would have impacted India and Ghandi's efforts for freedom in that scenario. Let's just say that Ghandiesque techniques only work on cultures with conscience. Passive resistance didn't work out so well versus a Nazi war machine flushed with recent victory (Field Marshal Model was the military govenor of India, for those that follow German military figures). "So what's the point," you ask? Taken as a whole, if a country was going to get it's teeth kicked in, Iraq could not have picked a better bunch of folks to do it than America, Britain, and our buddies (thanks Spain! Way to hang in there!). And you know what? Your average Joe Iraqi knows it. That doesn't mean that he's whooping and hollering and praising America to the heavens (what with it's 72 Virgins and all)... I mean we ARE occupying his country and all. But 99% of these fellows know, understand, and accept that they had a serious problem and that a few eggs were going to get broken in the process of fixing it. Some would call it callousness, but people honestly understand that when their buddy was driving around a little tipsy and didn't stop at the Coalition check point, it was prudent and reasonable for us to waste his ass. Some of that is the fatalistic concept of "In'sha'Allah" (pardon my transliteration) or "It's the will of Allah" which isn't really all that different from the Christian way of dealing with bad things, if you think about it (though it makes holding people to contracts devilishly difficult!), but it's also a very pragmatic view that given the context of the situation, erring on the side of security isn't such a dumb idea. Oh, and Achmed was kind of jerk anyway... driving drunk. The dumb ass. But while a brother might be wrought and pissed at the Americans for whacking Achmed, the people, as a whole, don't really seem to resent it that much. Some point to a societal numbness and dysfunction from years under Saddam, but I think that is insulting to the average Iraqi. I think they just understand, by and large, that we are doing our job.

Okay, so what's the point of this little ramble about things? Well, I don't get a lot of CNN or news over here and bless my soul if I can now count on seeing some naked Iraqi getting pointed at by Jessica Lynch's evil twin Skippy whenever I do happen to glance at a screen. I'm not surprised, hell, not even dissapointed in the news media... I respect them a lot too little to be dissapointed by anything they do, but I can't wait until the next disaster comes along to move this one to the back burner where it belongs. Guess what folks: this wasn't Mi Lai 4, and little pregnant PFC England isn't the 21st Century's Lieutenant Calley. Lord it was messed up and wrong... and you know who put a stop to it? The U.S. Military... LONG before you ever saw a dogpile of naked prisoners, we (as in the military, not as in "me") had identified, stopped, investigated and begun dealing with this situation. I don't resent that it's in the news... hell, it IS news. But it deserves just as much attention as the dramatic pause before we entered into Baghdad did... in retrospect. Retired General Wesely "I hope this pause before Baghdad doesn't herald a Vietnam-like quagmire" Clark can, with all due respect (which we all knows that it won't be), shove a cork in it, and not dignify this with anything but a "well, it's a shame it happened, but at least we've grown enough to identify it and deal with it like adults." I'm not holding my breath on that one.

"So, Krans," you ask, "don't you think that this was a vile, awful crime against humanity that not only demonstrates how wicked we are and that we shouldn't even be there, but also that has turned all the Iraqis against us, making our mission: impossible." Uh, no. On both counts. I make no excuses for the failures in personal integrity, unit leadership, and string of circumstances that allowed what appears to be a crime. To be internally consistent, I will withhold judgement until the jury (so to speak) is in, but that is just the point: there will be justice done, and it was in the process of being done long before you all were treated to "All Abu Grieb, All The Time News Network." A few weeks ago I wrote of the "Falluja Situation" and it's relationship to Tet in Vietnam, hopefully convincing you that that connection was, at best, tenuous. In that situation, as in this one, the only possible way that we can be harmed by this event in any meaningful long-lasting way, is if the people of America (sorry world, but that's really the only public that counts in this particular case... or most cases, for that matter) let the manner in which events are portrayed on the news channels and the talk shows and the water cooler shape their opinions out of scale with the actual event. We, as a military, are emotionally, historically, psychologically, and constitutionally subordinate to the will of the American people. The sad truth is that the will of the American people is, in my oh-so-humble opinion, unduly influenced by the Ted Turners who are, as I've blathered about before, primarily interested in selling advertising time, NOT altruistically presenting news in proportion to its real importance (without getting into an infinite regression that I won't suffer you to spell out).

So, in light of those last two longish paragraphs, here's Krans' spin on this thingy: I have had several conversations with Iraqis about that bit of unpleasantness in the prison. "It's very unfortunate. A bit of bad business that. Now, about the water treatment plant." Get it? It's like that dead drunk driver, Achmed (who is a fictional composite, by the ay)... a damn shame. These things happen. Glad you're dealing with it. We are not so stupid (except for those idiots following Sadr down south... now THERE'S a reckoning coming down the tracks like a brakeless freight train) as to think that this was policy.

Let me put it a different way: you have to have an exceptionally low opinion of humanity in general and Iraqis in specific to see them behaving, in large numbers, on the following model: "Well, I WAS going to work to rebuild my country... but since a couple of Americans were so stupid as to video tape themselves committing crimes, I'm going to tear down my own house!!! Yeah, that'll show 'em!!!! WoooooooooooooooooHoooooooooooooooo!!!!!" Some will do that, make no mistake. Enough to kill a few more Americans and Brits which, if found guilty, I certainly hope young Warner and England feel guilty enough about to kill themselves over, sure, but not enough to stand in the way of significant progress. Nope, the only people that can derail this train is the American people, by doing something jackassed like calling for the SecDef's resignation in the middle of a war (despite all my nice things to say about Iraqis, we ARE still at war, remember), insisting on self-inflicted hamstringing that has no place on the battlefield (see parenthetical remark above) like reading rights to people before we shoot them or something stupid like that. There is enough friction in this little counter-insurgency operation without pouring sand into the gears. There is enough fog in this war without our spraying mace into our own eyes. Need any more analogies, I'm on a roll!?

When I started this protracted essay, it was going to be a gentle little piece about a great day I had a few days ago... it ended with me sitting on my porch, smoking a fine Cuban cigar (or maybe it wasn't, depending on the legality of that act), watching a fantastic total eclipse of the moon, discussing astronomy and philosphy with some fellow warriors, and reflecting on just how much more life could suck. And I was going to congratulate Sergeant Lew on his new stripe and believe me he has earned every stitch on it doing what he's doing right now and I'm pretty sure it's not smoking cigars and watching eclipsi. But instead I thought about how messed up my CNN watching has been lately and thus you had to suffer through my ramble. Rest assured that the good things I'm always saying don't get reported are still happening: I've recently cut ribbons on clinics, will be christening (or is it mohammeding?) a water treatment plant next week, fixed schools out the wazoo, have meetings with some truly good men about heady things like democracy and security, shared laughs over jokes that cut to the essence of the common human experience. I get waves from the children still, yes even after that HORROR in Abu Grieb. To be fair, I also helped carry stetchers loaded with both Iraqis and Americans after yet another IED. But wedged in between interviews with prison experts on the pressures that led to the abuse and replaying Bush's interview on Al Jazeera for the umpteenth time, you'll probably hear about the blast that wounded those men (and kids), and the two Marines drowning, pushing our American Body Count up over 726 (funny, isn't it, how we in the military are studiously avoiding playing body count games, but the press sure does love to count our casualties...), but I rather doubt you'll see me handing out soccer balls, discussing economic development with business leaders, or delivering medical supplies to the new clinic. Oh, that's right... CNN couldn't spare anyone to cover that, now could they?

semper FI

Joe Sixpack · 05-10-2004

Why is this the "correct perspective"?

CuriousToyBoy · 05-10-2004

Dude,

That was better reporting than I have read on any paper or on any news service

It's amazing to get a little perspective, and thankyou from me for taking the time to put together such an insight.

Keep fighting the good fight.

dantheman · 05-10-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@May 10 2004, 08:33 AM
Why is this the "correct perspective"?

why? if you can't follow that reason then I'm not going to take my time to explain it to you, just keep up your post bashing the US.

NO ONE cares what you type anyhow.

RawAlex · 05-10-2004

Dan, I will ask the same question:

Why is this the "correct perspective"?

It's a perspective, that is for sure. It is a perspective from VERY close to the center of the issue, but it is still a grunts view of the war. You know the expression "Can't see the forest for the trees"?

It's an interesting perspective. Correct is for history to choose, not you.

Alex

editted to add: Dan, how come anyone that disagrees or makes any comment you don't agree with is doing nothing more than " keep up your post bashing the US"?

Last edited by RawAlex at May 10 2004, 09:04 AM

dantheman · 05-10-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 10 2004, 09:02 AM
Dan, I will ask the same question:

Why is this the "correct perspective"?

It's a perspective, that is for sure. It is a perspective from VERY close to the center of the issue, but it is still a grunts view of the war. You know the expression "Can't see the forest for the trees"?

It's an interesting perspective. Correct is for history to choose, not you.

Alex

editted to add: Dan, how come anyone that disagrees or makes any comment you don't agree with is doing nothing more than " keep up your post bashing the US"?

alex, I meant that it was the view from someone that is there, working,getting shot at, helping and working his ass off to finish this job and get home. It's news that you wont see on most "news" channels. Yes he is only a grunt, but he's a grunt that "sees" what's going on in his theater of operations. To "me" it's as close as we can get to what is really going on there. you can read in to it all you want.

as for as the bashing comment that was made to Joe simply becasue that's what he does.

Again guys, I'm just passing along things I find that tells the real story from those that ARE there. PLUS I'm tried of the news channels and their 14 hundred stories about the prison stuff, sure it's bad, sure it's going to cost us more lifes and time but it's being taking care of by the military just like it needs to be. The ones responsible will be punished. 99% of our guys and girls are doing their job like their trained to do.

Semper FI

Mike AI · 05-10-2004

How about, it is an Informed perspective from Iraq?

Alex we all know, only your perspective is correct! :P

CuriousToyBoy · 05-10-2004

He's there dodging bullets.

I'm here wondering if I should go to my fresh, clean bed or work a while longer.

He's there, we're here.

Right, wrong or indifferent I'm listening to HIS perspective over CNN.

Just my 2c

Mike AI · 05-10-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by CuriousToyBoy@May 10 2004, 09:35 AM
He's there dodging bullets.

I'm here wondering if I should go to my fresh, clean bed or work a while longer.

He's there, we're here.

Right, wrong or indifferent I'm listening to HIS perspective over CNN.

Just my 2c

CNN's perspective is about the same as Michael Moore's!

CuriousToyBoy · 05-10-2004

Quote:

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Originally posted by Mike AI+May 11 2004, 12:47 AM-->
QUOTE (Mike AI @ May 11 2004, 12:47 AM)

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05-10-2004 #11

RawAlex

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Mike, from where you sit politically, looking over to the more liberal side of things, Ronald Reagan is pretty close to Michael Moore... you know, when the angle gets that tight, everything seems to just line up one behind the other.

Dan, your choice of words is poor, that's all. it isn't a correct view (no one person sees the whole thing), but an "insiders" view, or a "view from the ground".

I don't disagree with the comments in it, but like almost any other blog style posting, it suffers from the writers failure to understand that what he sees isn't always the bigger truth. Hence the point of "forest for the trees". I read this post with great interest and found the whole thing very revealing. Reading this makes it easier for me to understand your point of view on these subjects.

Alex

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05-10-2004 #12

dantheman

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Quote:

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 10 2004, 10:06 AM
Mike, from where you sit politically, looking over to the more liberal side of things, Ronald Reagan is pretty close to Michael Moore... you know, when the angle gets that tight, everything seems to just line up one behind the other.

Dan, your choice of words is poor, that's all. it isn't a correct view (no one person sees the whole thing), but an "insiders" view, or a "view from the ground".

I don't disagree with the comments in it, but like almost any other blog style posting, it suffers from the writers failure to understand that what he sees isn't always the bigger truth. Hence the point of "forest for the trees". I read this post with great interest and found the whole thing very revealing. Reading this makes it easier for me to understand your point of view on these subjects.

Alex

I do have my own way of watching this bit of history, I try to pass it along to show others who might not see it. I had my first runin(lack of better words)with terrorism along time ago, '83 lost good freinds/brothers in the best way to it, so this is something that I see is necessary now or later. We're in it now(9/11 just being the one((of many)) big enough to draw us in) so now, it's us against them.....it ALMOST is good against evil (imho)

peace and semper fi

editx2=couple of beers

Last edited by dantheman at May 10 2004, 08:44 PM

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05-10-2004	#3
CuriousToyBoy Members Join Date: May 2004 Location: The Great Southern Land Posts: 986	Dude, That was better reporting than I have read on any paper or on any news service It's amazing to get a little perspective, and thankyou from me for taking the time to put together such an insight. Keep fighting the good fight. __________________ CuriousCash - 100% Exclusive Twink Sites Since 1999 <===> EuroSexFeed - 25 Niche DVD Content For Less Than $1 Gb Adult Who's Who ==> Ambush Interview ==> ICQ 293 070 684 ==> lindsay AT sbmgt DOT com

05-10-2004	#7
Mike AI Administrator Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 11,618	How about, it is an Informed perspective from Iraq? Alex we all know, only your perspective is correct! :P __________________ Make big money on your Domains! Why wait 40 days to get paid with the other guys? Parked.com pays the most for your traffic, and cuts checks twice a month!

05-10-2004	#8
CuriousToyBoy Members Join Date: May 2004 Location: The Great Southern Land Posts: 986	He's there dodging bullets. I'm here wondering if I should go to my fresh, clean bed or work a while longer. He's there, we're here. Right, wrong or indifferent I'm listening to HIS perspective over CNN. Just my 2c __________________ CuriousCash - 100% Exclusive Twink Sites Since 1999 <===> EuroSexFeed - 25 Niche DVD Content For Less Than $1 Gb Adult Who's Who ==> Ambush Interview ==> ICQ 293 070 684 ==> lindsay AT sbmgt DOT com

05-10-2004	#1
dantheman Members Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,878	hey guys, just a update from a fellow marine in country, It's a little long and if you dont care about what's happening there, skip and go to the thread on post counts ; ) -------- Location: Camp Habbaniyah, Iraq Life, as I've said many times before, could be a lot worse! And I'm not talking in vague genralities here, I mean MY life could very easily be VERY much worse than it is now. Take, for instance, the very fact that I'm writing in this blog and the very long string of implications that carries: a computer, connectivity, electricity, time, a roof over my head, a lack of bullet holes and their attendant sepsis, the phenominal number of bullets, both real and figurative, that I've dodged in the past, the ones (figurative only... another pleasant set of circumstances) that I HAVE taken but that have only wounded me and set me moving in other directions, etc., etc., etc. Let's move beyond me (as much as I like talking about myself) and look at the land I'm currently living in: Iraq. It could be a lot worse here, too, for the average "Joe Iraqi" or "Hadji" as we call them. We, America and the Coalition, have, should we choose to use it, the ability kill every man, woman and child we encounter and most of those we don't. We haven't. And this is due entirely to our own internal codes, checks and balances, not because of any supposed heroic defense of the Hadji Homeland. I once read a great short story (by Littledove, I think) about an alternate history in which the Germans did much better in WWII than in our reality. The story was about how this would have impacted India and Ghandi's efforts for freedom in that scenario. Let's just say that Ghandiesque techniques only work on cultures with conscience. Passive resistance didn't work out so well versus a Nazi war machine flushed with recent victory (Field Marshal Model was the military govenor of India, for those that follow German military figures). "So what's the point," you ask? Taken as a whole, if a country was going to get it's teeth kicked in, Iraq could not have picked a better bunch of folks to do it than America, Britain, and our buddies (thanks Spain! Way to hang in there!). And you know what? Your average Joe Iraqi knows it. That doesn't mean that he's whooping and hollering and praising America to the heavens (what with it's 72 Virgins and all)... I mean we ARE occupying his country and all. But 99% of these fellows know, understand, and accept that they had a serious problem and that a few eggs were going to get broken in the process of fixing it. Some would call it callousness, but people honestly understand that when their buddy was driving around a little tipsy and didn't stop at the Coalition check point, it was prudent and reasonable for us to waste his ass. Some of that is the fatalistic concept of "In'sha'Allah" (pardon my transliteration) or "It's the will of Allah" which isn't really all that different from the Christian way of dealing with bad things, if you think about it (though it makes holding people to contracts devilishly difficult!), but it's also a very pragmatic view that given the context of the situation, erring on the side of security isn't such a dumb idea. Oh, and Achmed was kind of jerk anyway... driving drunk. The dumb ass. But while a brother might be wrought and pissed at the Americans for whacking Achmed, the people, as a whole, don't really seem to resent it that much. Some point to a societal numbness and dysfunction from years under Saddam, but I think that is insulting to the average Iraqi. I think they just understand, by and large, that we are doing our job. Okay, so what's the point of this little ramble about things? Well, I don't get a lot of CNN or news over here and bless my soul if I can now count on seeing some naked Iraqi getting pointed at by Jessica Lynch's evil twin Skippy whenever I do happen to glance at a screen. I'm not surprised, hell, not even dissapointed in the news media... I respect them a lot too little to be dissapointed by anything they do, but I can't wait until the next disaster comes along to move this one to the back burner where it belongs. Guess what folks: this wasn't Mi Lai 4, and little pregnant PFC England isn't the 21st Century's Lieutenant Calley. Lord it was messed up and wrong... and you know who put a stop to it? The U.S. Military... LONG before you ever saw a dogpile of naked prisoners, we (as in the military, not as in "me") had identified, stopped, investigated and begun dealing with this situation. I don't resent that it's in the news... hell, it IS news. But it deserves just as much attention as the dramatic pause before we entered into Baghdad did... in retrospect. Retired General Wesely "I hope this pause before Baghdad doesn't herald a Vietnam-like quagmire" Clark can, with all due respect (which we all knows that it won't be), shove a cork in it, and not dignify this with anything but a "well, it's a shame it happened, but at least we've grown enough to identify it and deal with it like adults." I'm not holding my breath on that one. "So, Krans," you ask, "don't you think that this was a vile, awful crime against humanity that not only demonstrates how wicked we are and that we shouldn't even be there, but also that has turned all the Iraqis against us, making our mission: impossible." Uh, no. On both counts. I make no excuses for the failures in personal integrity, unit leadership, and string of circumstances that allowed what appears to be a crime. To be internally consistent, I will withhold judgement until the jury (so to speak) is in, but that is just the point: there will be justice done, and it was in the process of being done long before you all were treated to "All Abu Grieb, All The Time News Network." A few weeks ago I wrote of the "Falluja Situation" and it's relationship to Tet in Vietnam, hopefully convincing you that that connection was, at best, tenuous. In that situation, as in this one, the only possible way that we can be harmed by this event in any meaningful long-lasting way, is if the people of America (sorry world, but that's really the only public that counts in this particular case... or most cases, for that matter) let the manner in which events are portrayed on the news channels and the talk shows and the water cooler shape their opinions out of scale with the actual event. We, as a military, are emotionally, historically, psychologically, and constitutionally subordinate to the will of the American people. The sad truth is that the will of the American people is, in my oh-so-humble opinion, unduly influenced by the Ted Turners who are, as I've blathered about before, primarily interested in selling advertising time, NOT altruistically presenting news in proportion to its real importance (without getting into an infinite regression that I won't suffer you to spell out). So, in light of those last two longish paragraphs, here's Krans' spin on this thingy: I have had several conversations with Iraqis about that bit of unpleasantness in the prison. "It's very unfortunate. A bit of bad business that. Now, about the water treatment plant." Get it? It's like that dead drunk driver, Achmed (who is a fictional composite, by the ay)... a damn shame. These things happen. Glad you're dealing with it. We are not so stupid (except for those idiots following Sadr down south... now THERE'S a reckoning coming down the tracks like a brakeless freight train) as to think that this was policy. Let me put it a different way: you have to have an exceptionally low opinion of humanity in general and Iraqis in specific to see them behaving, in large numbers, on the following model: "Well, I WAS going to work to rebuild my country... but since a couple of Americans were so stupid as to video tape themselves committing crimes, I'm going to tear down my own house!!! Yeah, that'll show 'em!!!! WoooooooooooooooooHoooooooooooooooo!!!!!" Some will do that, make no mistake. Enough to kill a few more Americans and Brits which, if found guilty, I certainly hope young Warner and England feel guilty enough about to kill themselves over, sure, but not enough to stand in the way of significant progress. Nope, the only people that can derail this train is the American people, by doing something jackassed like calling for the SecDef's resignation in the middle of a war (despite all my nice things to say about Iraqis, we ARE still at war, remember), insisting on self-inflicted hamstringing that has no place on the battlefield (see parenthetical remark above) like reading rights to people before we shoot them or something stupid like that. There is enough friction in this little counter-insurgency operation without pouring sand into the gears. There is enough fog in this war without our spraying mace into our own eyes. Need any more analogies, I'm on a roll!? When I started this protracted essay, it was going to be a gentle little piece about a great day I had a few days ago... it ended with me sitting on my porch, smoking a fine Cuban cigar (or maybe it wasn't, depending on the legality of that act), watching a fantastic total eclipse of the moon, discussing astronomy and philosphy with some fellow warriors, and reflecting on just how much more life could suck. And I was going to congratulate Sergeant Lew on his new stripe and believe me he has earned every stitch on it doing what he's doing right now and I'm pretty sure it's not smoking cigars and watching eclipsi. But instead I thought about how messed up my CNN watching has been lately and thus you had to suffer through my ramble. Rest assured that the good things I'm always saying don't get reported are still happening: I've recently cut ribbons on clinics, will be christening (or is it mohammeding?) a water treatment plant next week, fixed schools out the wazoo, have meetings with some truly good men about heady things like democracy and security, shared laughs over jokes that cut to the essence of the common human experience. I get waves from the children still, yes even after that HORROR in Abu Grieb. To be fair, I also helped carry stetchers loaded with both Iraqis and Americans after yet another IED. But wedged in between interviews with prison experts on the pressures that led to the abuse and replaying Bush's interview on Al Jazeera for the umpteenth time, you'll probably hear about the blast that wounded those men (and kids), and the two Marines drowning, pushing our American Body Count up over 726 (funny, isn't it, how we in the military are studiously avoiding playing body count games, but the press sure does love to count our casualties...), but I rather doubt you'll see me handing out soccer balls, discussing economic development with business leaders, or delivering medical supplies to the new clinic. Oh, that's right... CNN couldn't spare anyone to cover that, now could they? semper FI __________________ "Never argue with an idiot....he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

05-10-2004	#2
Joe Sixpack Members Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 641	Why is this the "correct perspective"?

05-10-2004	#5
RawAlex Members $100 for every ImLive sign-up Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,036	Dan, I will ask the same question: Why is this the "correct perspective"? It's a perspective, that is for sure. It is a perspective from VERY close to the center of the issue, but it is still a grunts view of the war. You know the expression "Can't see the forest for the trees"? It's an interesting perspective. Correct is for history to choose, not you. Alex editted to add: Dan, how come anyone that disagrees or makes any comment you don't agree with is doing nothing more than " keep up your post bashing the US"? Last edited by RawAlex at May 10 2004, 09:04 AM __________________ Let's go to the edge of disaster Push the pedal and go a little faster Let's slam into a wall at ramming speed Let's go to the edge of a mountain Jump off and lets start countin' Hit the ground and tell me if it bleeds