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Old 03-09-2003   #1
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seen this before? Pretty cool, a database of known hawks who avoided military service.


http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html
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Old 03-09-2003   #2
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A chickenhawk is a term often applied to public persons - generally male - who (1) tend to advocate, or are fervent supporters of those who advocate, military solutions to political problems, and who have personally (2) declined to take advantage of a significant opportunity to serve in uniform during wartime.
oh yeah, they really missed out on a huge opportunity

poor fuckers, having to continue living while those who did take advantage of the significant opportunity were being blown up!! what were they thinking!!

if usa runs out of young fresh meat in this upcoming war, and starts calling on Internet Professionals to take advantage of a significant opportunity, who would say yes and who would say no?
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Old 03-09-2003   #3
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Interesting list indeed ... although I thought Paul Harvey had served in the Army Air Corps. My personal favorite was "DeLay's excuse for having a yellow streak as wide as the Rio Grande down his back is truly imaginative, if you take a delight in the bizarre. The man ... claims that he volunteered for Vietnam, but all the spots were taken up by minorities, so he was not allowed to serve."

Left out Gephard, Lehey, and Liberman I know that none of them served off the top of my head.

[Standard Disclaimer for JR - I am quite sure there is some missing information; I understand that it is probably a biased compilation and do not assume it is 100% factual. Please note that nothing in this post should be taken as a sign that the author is paranoid about an impending investigation by the Attorney General.]

BTW ... I am of the firmest opinion that there would be an awful lot more folks against this war if the situation that existed between 1964-1971 existed today. An awful lot of chest-thumpers who are just dying to see some other damn fool go kick some Iraqi ass might be thinking just a little different if their fate depended upon the accident of their birthday, or even better, a panel of local folks tasked with selecting who got to go.

It would shut GFY up, that's for sure.
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Old 03-09-2003   #4
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I'm surprise Mohammad Ali's not listed since he actually went so far as to refuse to be drafted.
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Old 03-09-2003   #5
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I suspect there is a snopes.com explaination for many of these... I noticed alot of them were for time frames long after the draft was gone - desert storm wasn't a draft war (umm, police action, umm... what the heck was it?).

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Old 03-09-2003   #6
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Originally posted by Peaches@Mar 9 2003, 09:04 PM
I'm surprise Mohammad Ali's not listed since he actually went so far as to refuse to be drafted.
Well, I have a lot of respect for the people who believed in their convictions enough (even if I think their convictions are muddle-headed) to go that far. The only people not given Amnesty by Jimmy Carter are the people who had the courage to do that.
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Old 03-09-2003   #7
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Originally posted by Peaches@Mar 9 2003, 09:04 PM
I'm surprise Mohammad Ali's not listed since he actually went so far as to refuse to be drafted.
That's because this ia a list of HAWKS. Ali was never (to my memory) an advocate of war.
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Old 03-09-2003   #8
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Originally posted by sarettah+Mar 9 2003, 11:15 PM-->
QUOTE (sarettah @ Mar 9 2003, 11:15 PM)
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Old 03-09-2003   #9
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Yep I have read that before.

Alot of good dems have served there country. Jimmy Carter was a good soldier. Capt of a nuclear Sub. Gotta be pretty smart there..

Dole was a hero as Mccain was also.

JFK, was a great hero. Swam a few miles while wounded and carrying another soldier.
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Old 03-10-2003   #10
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I can't believe they've got Ronald Reagan on there - or anyone who served, regardless of how "painless" (as they put it) their service was. Some of the folks listed were in the Nat'l Guard - hate to break this to them, but that *is* serving your country, even on a limited-time basis. And in a case of war, the Guard are usually the first ones in there, to make way for the full-timers.

Now imagine the people who don't know their facts and took that report as truth because it was published in the paper. Irresponsible. The least they could've done is use special coloring or put a special mark beside the folks who did serve, to show that they did put in time but were still considered "bellicose" enough for the purposes of this list.
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Old 03-10-2003   #11
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Hello? Hello? Reality Check here ... this is not your father's National Guard or Reserves.

With regard to the National Guard and Vietnam - it was a well known fact that the Guard was not used extensively in Vietnam. The Reserves were not used extensively in Vietnam. Neither was used in Vietnam because they were not necessary - the entire configuration of the services was different back then, and the Guard and Reserves of that era provided only a redundancy that was not necessary to fight the Vietnam War.

Add to that fact that the government did not want to attract any more attention to the war than was already being done, which mobilization of those units would certainly have done. Consequently, Guard and Reserve billets were often difficult to get during the Vietnam War. In many places there were waiting lists for positions in them - and you needed some pull to get in in many places. They were a good place to hide out if you had the pull and/or the luck to get in and had the misfortune to get a draft notice, or you blew out a couple of semesters of school and they were likely to come lookng for you.

Part of the very reason the services are configured the way they are today - with the Guard and Rerserves serving an integral role in military planning - is to prevent another attempt by the government to sneak us into a war.

Reagan and Wayne did what they did; Jimmy Stewart did what he did. You want to call that putting in the same bit, it's your right - it's a free country. Me, I like to see a little action behind the roles they play.
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Old 03-10-2003   #12
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Old 03-10-2003   #13
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He was on special assignment in Kennebunkport - he didn't desert. Really.
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Old 03-10-2003   #14
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Mar 10 2003, 01:07 AM
Reagan and Wayne did what they did; Jimmy Stewart did what he did. You want to call that putting in the same bit, it's your right - it's a free country. Me, I like to see a little action behind the roles they play.
So the guys who are out there on ships today doing "routine" tours aren't really serving their country? Wearing a uniform doesn't make you a veteran - only combat action does?

I can't comment on the differences in the Guard between Vietnam and now - I was born while my Dad was in service after being drafted for 'Nam. Still, I don't see how being in the Armed Forces can't be construed as just that - being in the Armed Forces and serving your country?!?
Even if the guys in the Guard are here on our soil doing rounds at a base to keep it secure, is that not service to our country?

It's not me you should be blinking at because I view all service as "serving our country" - it's them you should be blinking at for viewing some services as laughable or perhaps less honorable than others, as well as calling people "chickenhawks" for times when we never had a draft (Desert Storm? Hello?).
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Old 03-10-2003   #15
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Carrie, national guard duty at the time was considered "slack duty". The Government wasn't going to call up the reserves (as they do now) to fight anything. Getting into the guard was basically THE way to avoid vietnam if there was nothing physically wrong with you. Typically, well placed parents would work it out so that they draft age sons would end up in a state guard outfit, where they were just about assured that they would never make it to any battle.

Things aren't the same anymore, in larger part because of those abuses.

Anyone who wore a uniform for their country is a veteran - but only some are veterans of foreign wars.

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Old 03-10-2003   #16
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« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Originally posted by Carrie+Mar 10 2003, 01:57 AM-->
QUOTE (Carrie @ Mar 10 2003, 01:57 AM)
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Old 03-10-2003   #17
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There's something fishy going on here.

The author defines chickenhawk as one that "declined to take advantage of a significant opportunity to serve in uniform during wartime". There would presumably have to be a war to serve during, however Ken Adelman [whoever that is] is listed as "Year born: unknown. Relevant conflict avoided? Vietnam?" With the question marks.

I can only assume that terms like "Beelzebub", "Puppeteer", and "Propagandist" have something under than a fair and partial judgement in mind.

Why is Reagan listed as a hawk but not Clinton?




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Old 03-10-2003   #18
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Many governmental representatives are elected despite the fact that they didn't serve in the military. Their decisions and opinions on issues involving use of military force are not expected to be crippled by whether they served in the military or not. If that is the case, we would legislate that representatives must have military service in order to run so that they may make decisions in such
cases. That would then present the dilemma that everyone in office had served in the military.

You don't vote for your congressman that didn't serve in the military and require that she shut up and sit silently if she thinks war is necessary. The only resolution is that representatives should not be required to have military service and that they should vote as their conscience dictates regardless of their past military experience.

Everyday, representatives vote on things like science funding and art funding. How many of them are scientists or artists? How can a representative that never even took a college class in physics decide that a particle accelerator is or is not worth funding? Well, they do the best they can with the information they have.
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Old 03-10-2003   #19
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Colin, of course there is something fishy here. It's partisan political rhetoric. This list has no more credibility than the "France Bashing List" dujour.

Re Reagan v Clinton - The author elaborated on the "definition" of chickenhawk with "The alleged "gentlemen" listed in this database are here because they share three qualities: bellicosity (a warlike manner or temperament), public prominence, and a curious lack of wartime service when others their age had no trouble finding the fight." I think it is safe to say that the bellicosty meter got a greater workout between 1980-1988 than it did between 1992-2000.

I really want to know if DeLay said he was deprived of the right to volunteer for Vietnam because all the minorities had taken up the spots, though.
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Old 03-10-2003   #20
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Mar 10 2003, 10:29 AM
I think it is safe to say that the bellicosity meter got a greater workout between 1980-1988 than it did between 1992-2000.

I think a fair analysis would show they were pretty similar actually.

Would you like to compare Libya, Lebanon, and Grenada with Somalia, Haiti, and Kosovo?
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Old 03-10-2003   #21
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I hate it when you cloud the issue with relevant facts ...
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Old 03-10-2003   #22
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people dont like politicians because the game of politics itself is nothing more than an endless game of trying to discredit the other side.

in the end... they ALL look like nothing more than a bunch of lying, thieving, draft dodging, tax hiking, half communist, dickheads.
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Old 03-10-2003   #23
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JR,

Man, is that the truth. The funny thing is that it has always been so. American politicians, at least, have never been very civil towards each other. Fist fights in congress, criticizing ex-presidents [actually fairly common. Despite recent popular commentary to the contrary], name-calling, dirty tricks, silly impeachment proceedings, slander. Man, politics is an ugly business.

Despite my low opinion of party politics, it may very well be a necessary part of the political process.
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Old 03-10-2003   #24
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Do a Google search PD. You never know what you'll find.
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