Why the surfers are no longer buying

[RawAlex]

I was looking at porntube.com today... needed a laugh. Check out this join page:

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So basically, after repeating over and over that the site is 100% totally free for lifetime membership, they pre-check cross sale and upgrade (below the join button) for $49.95 + $49.95 + 39.95 = $139.95

Now, if the guy is unlucky and this falls near his billing dates, and he gets hit for the second month without realizing it, he could be looking at almost $280 of charges for his 'free lifetime membership' to porntube.

Fuck me. If this isn't criminal, it should be.

[sunfunbill]

Yeah that's pretty bad. But on the upside, maybe if enough tube sites start doing this people will stop going to them and actually start buying memberships again.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by sunfunbill

Yeah that's pretty bad. But on the upside, maybe if enough tube sites start doing this people will stop going to them and actually start buying memberships again.

The cycle seems to be for most... steal as much content as you can. Bloat your server with traffic, try to sell traffic via advertising, realize that the legal woes and the pipe bill has you in the red, announce that your going to clean up the rogue uploads, try to monitize your trffic with circle jerking and trades, and then shady billing.

Maybe local billing needs some new clients?

[TheEnforcer]

Soooooo many reasons but this kinda shows it pretty well.....

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Soooooo many reasons but this kinda shows it pretty well.....

It's the sad reality that maybe only 5% of people would actually ever buy porn online to start with. When you turn around and burn 75% of them with bullshit charge cramming and pre-checked cross sales it is not shocking that none of them want to spend.

Here is a further joke: Each of the "upsell" sites is available by itself as a free to join. So technically, they are selling for $39.95 something that they offer to the public for free. Some of the sites don't even have a tour page, just an enter page and a join page. How these things can even get processing is beyond me.

The owning company is in the UK... I wonder what the tabloids over there would do with a "worldwide porn scandal based out of the UK"?

[DannyCox]

Just had a "discussion" with Robbie on this over at the xbiz forum. His idea is that since 99% of all BIG programs have been screwing with people since the beginning (his words), so there is obviously nothing wrong with everyone doing it (I am paraphrasing a much more indepth conversation). He's also upset with guys like me warning and giving away the "industry secrets" of x-sales to our members

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by DannyCox

Just had a "discussion" with Robbie on this over at the xbiz forum. His idea is that since 99% of all BIG programs have been screwing with people since the beginning (his words), so there is obviously nothing wrong with everyone doing it (I am paraphrasing a much more indepth conversation). He's also upset with guys like me warning and giving away the "industry secrets" of x-sales to our members

Do you know how long hes been in this business? If you dont he will tell you.
If your lucky Shap will also interject how cool he is and KB will let you know hes moved to Hollywood.

[softball]

Originally Posted by DannyCox

Just had a "discussion" with Robbie on this over at the xbiz forum. His idea is that since 99% of all BIG programs have been screwing with people since the beginning (his words), so there is obviously nothing wrong with everyone doing it (I am paraphrasing a much more indepth conversation). He's also upset with guys like me warning and giving away the "industry secrets" of x-sales to our members

Robbie is the Irwin Corey of porn. World's foremost expert on everything.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Robbie is the Irwin Corey of porn. World's foremost expert on everything.

You got to give him creidt though. At least he still trying to make a living shooting content and selling it instead of sinking to the level of suing everyone for a living like Steve Lightspeed.

Steve Lightspeed is gonna save us all!!!

[DannyCox]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Robbie is the Irwin Corey of porn. World's foremost expert on everything.

Truth is, I had never even heard of him until he hooked up with Claudia Marie a few years ago. He does say he's been around since the beginning (and made millions a year), and he may well have been, but I just never knew of him. And "back in the beginning" we really did all know each other, whether personally or through reputation.

But I do get a chuckle out of his posts as there is always two ways of doing things...his way or the wrong way!

[softball]

Originally Posted by gonzo

You got to give him creidt though. At least he still trying to make a living shooting content and selling it instead of sinking to the level of suing everyone for a living like Steve Lightspeed.

Steve Lightspeed is gonna save us all!!!

I have no problem with Lightspeed doing that. Those cocksuckers stole his product. He is not sinking to any level, he is just recouping losses through theft. I have zero sympathy with anyone who gets taken to the cleaners for stealing content that, remember, he shot and paid for.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

I have no problem with Lightspeed doing that. Those cocksuckers stole his product. He is not sinking to any level, he is just recouping losses through theft. I have zero sympathy with anyone who gets taken to the cleaners for stealing content that, remember, he shot and paid for.

Graham... actually your right about copyright defense.
I look to the music industry when I say that about suing end users.
I think in the end it encouraged a lot more theft.

Theres just consumers that are no going to buy no matter what. They think tha they are entitled to your shit for free.

You have some marketeers pushing for a freemium business model in the mainstream.

I think theres a idea there and a bit of truth.
After all they fucking sold a virtual seed on farmville to the tune of a million bucks. Thats a lot of people buying literally NOTHING.

[RawAlex]

freemium is one of those ideas that will come and go so fast, that it will be forgotten by all but business students 20 years from now. It is a horrible idea that only works when you first admit that your initial product is worthless.

There are people in the world trying to push freemium or "selling the scarce" onto the music business. Don't fight piracy, just give away all your music and hope to sell enough concert tickets (and personal interaction chances, and hoodies, and t-shirts) to make a living. One whackjob even suggests that offering fans a chance to play mini-putt with the artists is a valid business model.

The problem is the real value of the deal. What the people really value is the music. They want music for their ipod, it is where they will actually get benefit from the artist 365 days a year, not for the 2 hours ever 4 years that they might show up in their town to play a concert. Piracy has artificially reduces the price of music to zero, but it has not killed the value. Value is what people really pay for.

Do you think people go to porn tube sites to check out the sexy dating site ads? Nope. They go for the porn. They value porn, they don't value dating sites. 99% of the visitors don't even click on a banner, many of them intentionally block ads out. They value porn. Only widespread piracy (both torrent and illegal tube) are the reasons why people won't pay for your porn content. If there was no other way to get it, people would pay for porn because THEY VALUE IT.

They don't value hoodies, they don't value dating sites, they don't value mini-putt games... they value the underlying product. Freemium requires that you devalue your own product in their eyes, a fatal marketing mistake.

[softball]

The content thieves, whether they by the little guy in London, or the big Pirate in Sweden are thieves. There is no argument. Theft in any industry is unsustainable. These initial lawsuits will have an impact the first time some crying 20 year old has to sell his car to pay a fine to a guy like Lightspeed. Next up, a bigger pirate will wind up in jail or his legs broken in Russia by a very pissed off content provider. This will settle down. Just like prohibition did.
There should be no discussion on the right or wrong of this. There is not two sides to this issue. There is our side and then there are the bad guys.
In this case, whether you like him or not, Steve Lightspeed is a good guy. In fact he is a very good guy.
His motivation may be money. But what is wrong with that? He makes money and he helps all honest business people by fucking up a few very nasty "non consumers". I have heard the argument that you shouldn't blame the consumer. Fuck it. They know damn well they are thieves.
Look at the mess Hollywood is in at the moment. Look at the crap quality of movies lately. (Box office off 17 per cent because of poor quality films) because genuine investors are afraid of winding up like "The Hurt Locker". So I say good fucking luck to Lightspeed and anyone else who can convince a lawyer to take on a multi million dollar case and fuck these assholes up.
Oh yeah, and I do believe that moving junk traffic from porn to gambling, dating etc. is on the wain. Way too many broken links. Way too many rehashed old movies. The only good thing about what is happening is porn traffic is devaluing for anything but...well....porn.
There is still a pot of gold at the end of this here rainbow as the lead drops from the pockets of the thieves.

[Far-L]

"Freemium" is not only a great term but it is a marketing device that was around long before tube sites became the great evil of all things.

Oh yeah...

Even way back when people were saying free would be the end for everyone. We see how well that proved to be true.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Far-L

"Freemium" is not only a great term but it is a marketing device that was around long before tube sites became the great evil of all things.

Oh yeah...

Even way back when people were saying free would be the end for everyone. We see how well that proved to be true.

And your point is?

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by Far-L

"Freemium" is not only a great term but it is a marketing device that was around long before tube sites became the great evil of all things.

Oh yeah...

Even way back when people were saying free would be the end for everyone. We see how well that proved to be true.

Hey Far-L good to see you.. :>))


I, and I imagine most people, don't have a problem with free content as a way to try and get customers to buy your stuff. Giving away samples has been a staple of business for a very long time. I just think a great many people think that the amount and direction the distribution of free content that takes place severely devalues the end product.

Many would say that this business devalues it's product with free stuff more than any other business out there...

[RawAlex]

Free content has to be used to sell the full product. It should be somewhere between a movie trailer and a great movie review, something that encourages people to go see the product, rather than giving it to them now.

Too many of the current business models are leverages on giving the people what they want (porn, movies, music) and hoping like hell they buy something they really don't need or want (dating, hoodies, shitty t-shirts, etc). This isn't just in porn, it's in all media related businesses. Instead of acting to make piracy a non-issue, the less brilliant are suggesting that you should use it to your advantage. But when you are producing only media, it means that you have to find someone else to pay the bills, and hope you can get enough of them to make it work.

People want the content, they don't want the crap. Selling them crap will always be a very marginal business, and entirely leverages on the content that few people will have the money left to produce. Then it all falls down.

The pro-piracy idiots have had a field day this week with Gene Simmons:

hxxp://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101006/03481311310/gene-simmons-says-sue-your-fans-take-their-homes-so-why-hasn-t-he.shtml

(sorry, I hobble the link because the guy is an asshole that doesn't need to be reading this site)

Basically, they forget the simple concept: without the Kiss music, and without the Kiss brand that was developed with that music and with those record sales, there would be nothing else. The market for Kiss Krap (tm, I am sure) exists not because Gene Simmons is one of the worlds best marketers, but because it is supported by a long term underlying product, the music, the recordings. It starts somewhere. People are buying the Krap because they have been hooked by the music, the band, and the concept, not because they need Krap. Thinking that the Krap is the business and the music isn't is the first step towards failing. Gene Simmons ain't making that mistake!

[tony404]

could it also be the banks closed over 5 million credit card accounts and most people would never use a debit card on a porn site?

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

And your point is?

My point is that freemium has been around since day one and made people lots of money. One could argue that the length of movies given for free has had an impact but I would counter with the fact that if all someone could jerk off to before was a picture for free then how is that really different? The dude still pulled one off for free. An orgasm is an orgasm regardless.

The lure of Premium will always attract buyers that will shill out their hard earned cash for something percieved as superior, service, content, exclusivity, all are essential.

The same people I tend to see complaining about free are the ones I was wondering why they gave so much away before tubes came along. A lot of the programs I have seen fall away were ones that were all hype and very short on much else.

The sites that have survived and thrived, even now, are those that gave equal focus to providing a solid product to support the hype.

[Cleo]

Water is free and available everywhere yet people still buy bottled water, me included.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Cleo

Water is free and available everywhere yet people still buy bottled water, me included.

Mighty fine new program to the left of your message too.
People will pay for convenience and quality.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by Cleo

Water is free and available everywhere yet people still buy bottled water, me included.

porn isnt water

[softball]

No but people are afraid of getting viruses and all kind of nasty things in water, so they pay for the bottled stuff.

[softball]

Some "tube sites" are just video tgp's. Those are not the ones that piss me off. Its the ones that steal my content. Fuck free. Hell I could make a fortune if I didn't have to pay for product and could just fence it like these cocksuckers.
I blame the DMC for this freeking mess.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Cleo

Water is free and available everywhere yet people still buy bottled water, me included.

Well, put it this way: If 75% of the time you buy bottled water, you get charged an extra $200 a month later on your credit card for no reason, how much bottled water would you be buying?

The online porn industry is it's own worst enemy, too much in a rush to make big money today an not giving a shit about tomorrow (or even later today).

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

No but people are afraid of getting viruses and all kind of nasty things in water, so they pay for the bottled stuff.

And the same applies to porn... people will pay for the site that they trust not to give them all kinds of nasty shit... and I am not just referring to bad content but malware etc.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by tony404

porn isnt water

Close to it though in a sense. I always say "sex is food and people have to eat". The day people stop having sex for procreation it might change... but I doubt it. There is reliable proof that gay people still have sex even though no procreation is possible.

That, plus the notion that humankind has an inate "grass is greener on the other side" curiousity and yearning means that the ability to sell quality adult entertainment is going to go on as long as...

Well I was going to say the "world's oldest profession"... lol

[softball]

Originally Posted by Far-L

And the same applies to porn... people will pay for the site that they trust not to give them all kinds of nasty shit... and I am not just referring to bad content but malware etc.

That was my point. Both you and I have been providing safe havens since the beginning.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Close to it though in a sense. I always say "sex is food and people have to eat". The day people stop having sex for procreation it might change... but I doubt it. There is reliable proof that gay people still have sex even though no procreation is possible.

That, plus the notion that humankind has an inate "grass is greener on the other side" curiousity and yearning means that the ability to sell quality adult entertainment is going to go on as long as...

Well I was going to say the "world's oldest profession"... lol

I could jack off all day every day to free porn probably for at least 5 yrs and never hit the same clip twice. They need sex they dont need to pay when they can get it for free. I cant believe you sing the praises of free when lots of people bought porn when all they had was a box cover. That's how thru bad times adult always made money because it wasn't given away like candy in a desperate attempt to make a sale. This industry is devaluing itself out of existence.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Well, put it this way: If 75% of the time you buy bottled water, you get charged an extra $200 a month later on your credit card for no reason, how much bottled water would you be buying?

The online porn industry is it's own worst enemy, too much in a rush to make big money today an not giving a shit about tomorrow (or even later today).

amen

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by tony404

I could jack off all day every day to free porn probably for at least 5 yrs and never hit the same clip twice. They need sex they dont need to pay when they can get it for free. I cant believe you sing the praises of free when lots of people bought porn when all they had was a box cover. That's how thru bad times adult always made money because it wasn't given away like candy in a desperate attempt to make a sale. This industry is devaluing itself out of existence.

A couple of lifetimes ago, I was up front for a seminar at an Adultdex show with Mikefold, which was an experience to say the least. I am not the best speaker in the world, and OldFold was still running on rum and cokes from the night before. We were quite a team.

One of the subjects on the table was teasing versus pleasing. At the time, a number that was kicked around was that it took in the neighborhood of 6 minutes with the right video product for a guy to get off. Therefore, the simple rule: If it takes 6 minutes, never give them that for free.

Tube sites miss this very basic concept. Many of them give full scenes, and many of them run videos way over 10 minutes. Many even have the full monty and the full finish, effectively the whole scene.

What is left to sell?

Their answer is they sell things like cam shows, dating sites, penis pills, and all sorts of things that cannot be tubed. It was a functional business model for a while, I guess, but even these guys are feeling the squeeze. Fewer and fewer new signups to these sites, many of those programs are played out and not making the money they once were, and many of the penis pill guys have been chased out of business by law enforcement actions (and smart moves by Visa and Mastercard).

Their other source was insane cross billing, if you could get an mark to put up his credit card, you whacked the thing harder than he whacked his dick to the "free" video, leaving people with hundreds of dollars of unexplained charges, hoping they are too shy or too stupid to charge them back.

It's a brilliant business model, one that has put enough money on the side of the big tube site owners that they are now also either producing their own content in scale (Brazzers) or purchasing content wholesale for their tube sites direction (many others).

Someone will wake up and realize that the porn business only works when you market and sell porn, and don't allow your products to be given away to sell someone elses stuff.

[Cleo]

One of my stripper friends stayed with us this week and we even went over to the club and hung out for a little while last night.

She ain’t making shit stripping though. It seems everyone is in the club buying drinks and food which makes the club happy but they aren't spending money on the girls for lap dances or to go private.

Kind of reminded me of the porn biz as everyone in the club can get full monty for free.
(actually guys at this club can get full serviced discreetly too but watching seems to be enough for most of them these days)

[Cleo]

So why do I get to have the giant banner with the lady of the giant lips above my avatar?

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Cleo

So why do I get to have the giant banner with the lady of the giant lips above my avatar?

What lips?

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Cleo

One of my stripper friends stayed with us this week and we even went over to the club and hung out for a little while last night.

She ain’t making shit stripping though. It seems everyone is in the club buying drinks and food which makes the club happy but they aren't spending money on the girls for lap dances or to go private.

Kind of reminded me of the porn biz as everyone in the club can get full monty for free.
(actually guys at this club can get full serviced discreetly too but watching seems to be enough for most of them these days)

The day that strippers stop complaining about crappy customers will be the same day that people stop paying for sex in whatever form.

[softball]

The day that strippers stop complaining about crappy customers will be the same day that people stop paying for sex in whatever form.