Morals and this industry

RyanLanane · 12-12-2005

I could of EASILY made $10,000 this month - instead I have skated by (falling into the ice) by being honest with potential clients... leading to a shitty X-Mas!

Question for the masses - if you have a TOTAL idiot you know you could take advantange of do you care about your reputation? Seriously... be honest, grab a fake nick if you have to ...

I have dropped at least $8000 in biz this month because I refused to rip idiots off - now I'm going to have a shitty X-Mas. Did I do the right thing? Seriously, would you have been able to turn down the business in my shoes knowing you would have a bad X-Mas if you didn't coast off of idiotic people's money.

I think, honestly, it's one huge area of business I lack skill in. Taking advantage of the weak. Would love to hear other's thoughts though.

Winetalk.com · 12-12-2005

By doing this you denied the "weak" of a valuable lesson in life and business. Instead of him getting experience, you haven't taught him anything. This is YOUR fault. Education is NOT free in America. You could have made a difference in person life, but you have chosen to leave him unenlighted and have yourself a miserable Xmas instead - karma at it's best.

The best education in HTML design I have gotten back in 1996, when I was charged $100 for 2 page design and $50 for each addition. After spending $150 for the lesson, I started charging others myself, and if I was charged $25 and free 10 updates,
I'd still be paying for HTML pages....

Do you see now where you've gone wrong?

sarettah · 12-12-2005

I love it

MorganGrayson · 12-12-2005

I love threads like this.

Ryan, as it has been said "we all have the morals we can afford." (Hush, Nick, I know where I got the line.)

Serge is right, of course. You could have taught the idiot a valuable lesson. If you had been in the mood to teach "valuable lessons" at that exact moment.

Ryan, all that matters are *your* morals and your ability to live with your actions. If it would have taken food, shelter and medicine away from your family I think you might have made quite a different decision. (This is where the relentlessly "moral" Morgan Grayson gets off the morality boat. My first and only obligation would have been to my family and I've have - not "of," my darling Ryan - ripped that sucker off to high heaven. He'd have gotten his life lesson and I'd have taken care of my family.)

Also, Ryan, you need to define a phrase for me. What constitutes a "bad Christmas"? One where you don't shower your loved ones with expensive gifts? Well, if that is the definition, then I guess my children have had a LOT of "bad Christmases." Thankfully, they never knew it and had fun anyway.

You need to apply your morals to your real life and not "this business." Don't teach that little child that the heavens are going to rain down expensive toys every time. If the lady thinks Santa does a quick fly-by at Tiffanys before dropping down your chimney, disabuse her of that notion.

I've only had one really bad Christmas in my life. Last year, the planes were grounded and my oldest couldn't make it in. Taking her gifts out from under my tree and packing them up to send them to her in Maine fucking sucked. Watching my youngest do the "brave face" sucked. Watching my husband lose it totally internally and not let it show on a stone face fucking sucked. Waiting for her to call and tell me that she made it safely from the airport in New Hampshire back to Maine and not getting a call because she stopped off at a friend's house and cried and got drunk out of her mind fucking sucked.

Nothing in this "bad Christmas" involved money.

Red · 12-12-2005

Morgan makes a good point.

Being dishonest to prospective customers just to buy expensive gifts? Nope, I wouldn't do it. If it meant being able to pay my bills, I'd do it in a minute.

Winetalk.com · 12-12-2005

please define dishonest.

If one doesn't beleive that his time is not worth whatever one can charge - the one is not dishonest, the one is just...incompetent.

Ryan, are you incompetent?

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

By doing this you denied the "weak" of a valuable lesson in life and business. Instead of him getting experience, you haven't taught him anything. This is YOUR fault. Education is NOT free in America. You could have made a difference in person life, but you have chosen to leave him unenlighted and have yourself a miserable Xmas instead - karma at it's best.

The best education in HTML design I have gotten back in 1996, when I was charged $100 for 2 page design and $50 for each addition. After spending $150 for the lesson, I started charging others myself, and if I was charged $25 and free 10 updates,
I'd still be paying for HTML pages....

Do you see now where you've gone wrong?

Best post on this board in 6 mths , IMHO.

Ryan,

If you are at a poker table and do not spot the idiot , its you.
If you are in the adult net and do not "educate" the idiot , its you.

MorganGrayson · 12-12-2005

In any discussion, all parties must first define their terms.

This is going to get interesting....

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

I still LOVE seeing all the pornographers with morals peek out. LOL

Little tip for you Ryan , relevant to this business..

"Morals are inveresly proportional to net worth"

Many said it was immoral to:

spam
spam search engines
use blind links
use consoles
shave
spyware/adware

( pretty much everything that made money was considered "immoral"

Morals are a convenient excuse to rationalise failure...

"Hi honey ,Oh I could have made a fortune , but on moral grounds I didn't"

ahahahahaha pathetic!!!!!!

DrGuile · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

I still LOVE seeing all the pornographers with morals peek out. LOL

Little tip for you Ryan , relevant to this business..

"Morals are inveresly proportional to net worth"

Many said it was immoral to:

spam
spam search engines
use blind links
use consoles
shave
spyware/adware

( pretty much everything that made money was considered "immoral"

Morals are a convenient excuse to rationalise failure...

"Hi honey ,Oh I could have made a fortune , but on moral grounds I didn't"

ahahahahaha pathetic!!!!!!

wait, you forgot the smiley when calling Ryan pathetic

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrGuile

wait, you forgot the smiley when calling Ryan pathetic

No I didn't.

MorganGrayson · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

No I didn't.

Just a little note from somebody who's "been there" since 1997:

Nick does not "forget" smilies.

TheEnforcer · 12-12-2005

It is all what one can live with themselves that makes the decision for them. To some people that extra money would come at too high of a price. To others it wouldn't even be a consideration. It really does come down to we all have the morals we can afford as everyone sets their own limits on what they feel is the right level of morality they can accept doing business by.

All anyone can do is tell you what THEIR morals would allow them to do but ultimately it all comes down to how your level of comfort with your actions.

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

It is all what one can live with themselves that makes the decision for them. To some people that extra money would come at too high of a price. To others it wouldn't even be a consideration. It really does come down to we all have the morals we can afford as everyone sets their own limits on what they feel is the right level of morality they can accept doing business by.

All anyone can do is tell you what THEIR morals would allow them to do but ultimately it all comes down to how your level of comfort with your actions.

I sincerely think thats bullshit....

Most people cling on to "morals" to cover a lack of intestinal fortitude.

DrGuile · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Morals are a convenient excuse to rationalise failure...

Nick, you obviously have morals, you dont choke kittens for sport...

So you acknowledge that you use a moral system, it's really not hard to believe that some people have it parameters set differently...

Very few people believe in "Money over everything"... not you, not Sergei...

As with everything, it's gray... You can laugh at Ryan's shade of gray, but it's just a slightly different shade than yours...

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

You confuse morals for decency.

I am always decent , rarely moral.

DrGuile · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

You confuse morals for decency.

I am always decent , rarely moral.

lol, semantics, kinda proves my point

PornoDoggy · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

You confuse morals for decency.

I am always decent , rarely moral.

Goodness gracious - another item on your resume I was not aware of.

Semantic surgeon - you have sliced that hair with precision.

Sin · 12-12-2005

I'm far from an expert, but here's my take on it.

Business & Personal are seperate, there's a reason they tell you to leave your "life" behind you when you walk into work.

Good business is being honest with the customer if it means the customer will earn you money --Either right then, or in the future either themselves or by word of mouth. You might not see the payoff immediately but depending on how it all unfolded you may see it later on down the road when people come to you that say they were referred by that individual. This is applicable mostly in scenarios where you don't offer the service/product the customer is looking for. Point is, that either way you get business. Getting business & clients, is good business.

Bad business is when you are honest to the point of simply losing out on business, or when you're dishonest to the point that word gets out that you just screw people over.

I think it also depends on the quality of the product/service that you're offering, whether or not ripping idiots off is a risk worth taking. There are times when I've paid more for something, later found out I could've gotten it (or something similar) much cheaper, but I've been so pleased with the end product/result/whatever, that I have simply concluded that you get what you pay for. (maybe that makes me one of the idiots that gets ripped off, who knows)

Oftentimes "nice" doesn't equal "good" is what I've found out recently. I'll use a rather frivolous example I suppose, but a while ago I decided to get a gel nail set. I phoned around town because I prefer to "shop around" rather than simply walk blindly into any store for something like that. I chatted with the people at each place for a few minutes, and finally settled on one where the girl was really nice, really friendly, really helpful, answered all my questions, seems they knew what they were doing. The nails turned out awful. Like, truly truly terrible. It was unfortunately my first time getting them done, and even more unfortunately I'm not very good at kicking up a fuss in person when in public, so I simply kept my mouth shut, figured "I don't know a thing about fake nails" and finally after a week of misery, decided to go into the place I'd originally thought of (but hadn't decided to go to, because of how abrupt & dismissive they'd been on the phone). By the time I went in there, I just wanted the things off my fingers. They looked at them & then asked if I wanted them fixed. It was the same price either way, so I opted to take a 2nd chance & go for the fix rather than the removal. They turned out gorgeous the 2nd time around.

Ryan if you were able to provide the product or service for those supposed idiots, and they were willing to pay the price, you should've. Some people are idiots who don't know any better, some may simply have had far too much money & simply not given a shit but if these "idiots" took their money and their business elsewhere, then that's really bad business IMO. We rarely pay the actual value of anything we buy, stores would never profit & doors would close rather quickly if they sold stuff at cost (or at what their "actual" value may be)

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Ryan its this simple....

Business is a fucking game just like poker.
Everyone knows the rules. - if you don't , you will lose.
You wanna play?
Then you play to win.

The thing about business is a lot more fish dabble in it than there is on any poker table

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

do you care about your reputation?

Yeah..it really keeps me up nights LOL

TheEnforcer · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

I sincerely think thats bullshit....

Most people cling on to "morals" to cover a lack of intestinal fortitude.

Actually we aren't really disagreeing. The aspect of their conscioius kicking in could easily be equated with the "lack of intestnal fortitude" you are referring to.

Take poker for example. One of the common traits I've read about the top poker players is that they would "bust their own grandmother of every penny she has" to win a pot against her. Many people wouldn't be able to do that to family but a top poker pro looks at it as someone shouldn't play the game if they can't afford to lose to me.

Sin · 12-12-2005

Just thought of another story from my job at the Brewery...

Had a customer about a year ago that was unhappy with the bottling station he was set up on. Wanted to move. In the spirit of providing good service, I decided to move him to station 2. Then I realized there was already someone booked for Station 2 that was much to my horror, already there in the store & washing their bottles. Now I had to speed up the moving process, so I could get the first station cleaned & the person set up there. I fumbled the ball so to speak, and managed to offend the first guy while trying to get him moved over to the other station quicker. He actually blew up at me in a manner that shocked everybody else in the store, He was much taller & larger than I am, and got in my face, his daughter was pleading with him to please just forget about it (for about 15 min after they were all set up on the 2nd station... he really went off) ...and my boss & coworker were both present & listening (as was the other customer) and regardless, if I had simply done nothing, I still would've been in "the right" as far as my morals went along with everybody else's who was present. I was already earning bonus points in my own book since I have quite a ferocious temper when I feel I am unnecessarily attacked... and I managed to remain quite calm.

Except just letting it go as was, would've been bad business. The guy would've left & never came back. We have records, and so I looked at them. Unfortunately for me this guy has been a customer at that place for over 10 years. It would be (in my books) real bad business to lose a customer like that. So I took 10, went in the back, vented at my coworker for a few minutes, and then against every moral in my personal self, I swallowed my pride, went out to the front & apologized to the customer. (And yes I spent a few min in the back first, thinking of a way in which I could actually manage to apologize which wouldn't go against my morals) A few weeks later the customer himself came back to apologize to me, apparently... (according to the rest of the staff) and he's still a customer there.

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

Just thought of another story from my job at the Brewery...

Had a customer about a year ago that was unhappy with the bottling station he was set up on. Wanted to move. In the spirit of providing good service, I decided to move him to station 2. Then I realized there was already someone booked for Station 2 that was much to my horror, already there in the store & washing their bottles. Now I had to speed up the moving process, so I could get the first station cleaned & the person set up there. I fumbled the ball so to speak, and managed to offend the first guy while trying to get him moved over to the other station quicker. He actually blew up at me in a manner that shocked everybody else in the store, He was much taller & larger than I am, and got in my face, his daughter was pleading with him to please just forget about it (for about 15 min after they were all set up on the 2nd station... he really went off) ...and my boss & coworker were both present & listening (as was the other customer) and regardless, if I had simply done nothing, I still would've been in "the right" as far as my morals went along with everybody else's who was present. I was already earning bonus points in my own book since I have quite a ferocious temper when I feel I am unnecessarily attacked... and I managed to remain quite calm.

Except just letting it go as was, would've been bad business. The guy would've left & never came back. We have records, and so I looked at them. Unfortunately for me this guy has been a customer at that place for over 10 years. It would be (in my books) real bad business to lose a customer like that. So I took 10, went in the back, vented at my coworker for a few minutes, and then against every moral in my personal self, I swallowed my pride, went out to the front & apologized to the customer. (And yes I spent a few min in the back first, thinking of a way in which I could actually manage to apologize which wouldn't go against my morals) A few weeks later the customer himself came back to apologize to me, apparently... (according to the rest of the staff) and he's still a customer there.

Ok..I read all that ...long as it was....

And I still don't see what you mean .....

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

One of the common traits I've read about the top poker players is that they would "bust their own grandmother of every penny she has" to win a pot against her.

its the kindest thing to do...

Sin · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Ok..I read all that ...long as it was....

And I still don't see what you mean .....

I get accused of being wordy quite a bit, sorry.

Point is personal morals have very little to do with what is good business or bad business.

In the story there, as morals went, I was entirely in the right. That was confirmed not only by me, my manager, my coworker and the other customer, but by the first customer who blew up, when he came to apologize.

As business went however, my morals didn't matter, it would've been bad business to just say to him "Well what do you want me to do?" (which is -exactly- what the owners have told me a few times that I should say to customers who complain)

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

In the story there, as morals went, I was entirely in the right. That was confirmed not only by me, my manager, my coworker and the other customer, but by the first customer who blew up, when he came to apologize.

No you weren't...

morals didn't enter into it..interpersonal skills did...

And secondly why the fuck do you need reassurance from a coworker and a boss without the testicular appendages to intercede....

;-)))

You have no idea how much I have learned about you in your last few posts. ;-)))

Like tells at a poker table if you will...

;-))

Anthony · 12-12-2005

I think I can pinpoint the what makes differences in people.

Balls.

Simple.

Anthony · 12-12-2005

I find it quite interesting that both NIck and I have balls on the brains.

It is of no wonder why we are so close.

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Amen Brother Anthony..

Everyone gets chances to make a success of their life , many people see the chance , the great seperator is few have the balls to take the chance , and later when they realise the mistake they made they come up with an excuse to portray themselves as "nice / kind /considerate",to justify what they already know.That they are failures.

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

I find it quite interesting that both NIck and I have balls on the brains.

It is of no wonder why we are so close.

better than having balls on the chin....

selena · 12-12-2005

When it's all said and done, no matter how much I'd like to think differently, I would have probably went for the cash.

MorganGrayson · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

I get accused of being wordy quite a bit, sorry.

Point is personal morals have very little to do with what is good business or bad business.

In the story there, as morals went, I was entirely in the right. That was confirmed not only by me, my manager, my coworker and the other customer, but by the first customer who blew up, when he came to apologize.

As business went however, my morals didn't matter, it would've been bad business to just say to him "Well what do you want me to do?" (which is -exactly- what the owners have told me a few times that I should say to customers who complain)

I think I have a somewhat similiar story. My husband was food and beverage director at a country club. One New Year's Eve, in the "way back of history," he had me working the cloakroom so that we could do the "kiss at midnight," our one and only New Year's Eve ritual.

During this evening, a drunken member screamed viciously at my husband for some minutes over something that wasn't his fault. I watched my husband quietly apologize and offer to set whatever it was right. Now, all I can do is plead youth for my part of this, which was a rather hysterical "why didn't you haul off and punch that bastard right in the mouth???" My husband explained that quite frequently professionalism demanded you just suck it up and swallow it. He wasn't at all surprised when the phone rang New Year's Day morning and it was the drunken country club member...calling to apologize.

Sin · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

No you weren't...

morals didn't enter into it..interpersonal skills did...

And secondly why the fuck do you need reassurance from a coworker and a boss without the testicular appendages to intercede....

;-)))

You have no idea how much I have learned about you in your last few posts. ;-)))

Like tells at a poker table if you will...

;-))

????

Exactly, morals didn't enter into it, if they had, there never would've been an apology.

I don't need "reassurance" from bosses or coworkers, all they who had the testicular appendages, didn't have the balls to deal with this man.

And I hope what you've learned about me has been positive... lol

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by selena

When it's all said and done, no matter how much I'd like to think differently, I would have probably went for the cash.

Why the fuck would you want to "how much I'd like to think differently"...

Jesus...thats preparing excuses to fail...

Anthony · 12-12-2005

Ryan,

I am the nice one of the dynamic duo. Let me break it down to you.

Look at all the data on successful people.

I bet you don't see nice/kind/considerate anywhere in their bio.

Nick used to call it the quickening back in the day. It's true, chop the fuckers head off, or you get yours chopped off.

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

And I hope what you've learned about me has been positive... lol

Why care?

Sin · 12-12-2005

Oh and if you've learned that I'm an idiot, I do hope you'll show me where...

I quite look up to you, Nick.

MorganGrayson · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Amen Brother Anthony..

Everyone gets chances to make a success of their life , many people see the chance , the great seperator is few have the balls to take the chance , and later when they realise the mistake they made they come up with an excuse to portray themselves as "nice / kind /considerate",to justify what they already know.That they are failures.

Just a simple: this is true.

Sin · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Why care?

Because, I respect you.

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Ryan,

I am the nice one of the dynamic duo. Let me break it down to you.

Look at all the data on successful people.

I bet you don't see nice/kind/considerate anywhere in their bio.

Nick used to call it the quickening back in the day. It's true, chop the fuckers head off, or you get yours chopped off.

( best Sean Connery accent..)

You have learned well Highlander....

;-)))

selena · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Why the fuck would you want to "how much I'd like to think differently"...

Jesus...thats preparing excuses to fail...

Well, it's more PC in my own mind to think that perhaps I wouldn't take actions that I am very capable of taking, I suppose.

You ever read Gone With the Wind?

I'm kind of like one part in it, where it goes on about how Scarlett wants the accolades and such for being a lady without having to change her knave soul.

I'd like to be thought of as kind and nice and those things.

But I'm not those things, and I don't foresee a change, really.

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

Because, I respect you.

Why ?

and oh...Don't

Anthony · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Why ?

and oh...Don't

I told her you were a great snuggler. No better spooner in the world!

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by selena

Well, it's more PC in my own mind to think that perhaps I wouldn't take actions that I am very capable of taking, I suppose.

You ever read Gone With the Wind?

I'm kind of like one part in it, where it goes on about how Scarlett wants the accolades and such for being a lady without having to change her knave soul.

I'd like to be thought of as kind and nice and those things.

But I'm not those things, and I don't foresee a change, really.

Why the fuck do you want to be thought of as "nice"?

Have you been programmed to lose?

Sin · 12-12-2005

You're intelligent, quick of wit, you cause others to question themselves often (something that too few people do on their own, so its good there's people like you out there) and you're willing to share tidbits of knowledge with the people who are smart enough to recognize them for what they are.

And telling me not to respect you won't work.

Sin · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Why the fuck do you want to be thought of as "nice"?

Have you been programmed to lose?

I've had it as my life goal for a few years now to be thought of as "formidable"

selena · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Why the fuck do you want to be thought of as "nice"?

Have you been programmed to lose?

~considers~

Hmmm.

I will have to think on that for a minute or two.

Nickatilynx · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

You're intelligent, quick of wit, you cause others to question themselves often (something that too few people do on their own, so its good there's people like you out there) and you're willing to share tidbits of knowledge with the people who are smart enough to recognize them for what they are.

And telling me not to respect you won't work.

Jesus if a few words on a message board can earn your respect...damn!!!!

Anthony knows what I'm thinking....lol

;-))

Anthony · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Why the fuck do you want to be thought of as "nice"?

Have you been programmed to lose?

OH MY FAWKING GAWD, NOT FUCKING AGAIN!!!

PLEASE LEAVE 2000 BACK WHERE IT BELONGS, HISTORY

It's like deja vu. I've heard these words before.

12-12-2005	#1
RyanLanane Going Back to My Roots Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,123	Morals and this industry I could of EASILY made $10,000 this month - instead I have skated by (falling into the ice) by being honest with potential clients... leading to a shitty X-Mas! Question for the masses - if you have a TOTAL idiot you know you could take advantange of do you care about your reputation? Seriously... be honest, grab a fake nick if you have to ... I have dropped at least $8000 in biz this month because I refused to rip idiots off - now I'm going to have a shitty X-Mas. Did I do the right thing? Seriously, would you have been able to turn down the business in my shoes knowing you would have a bad X-Mas if you didn't coast off of idiotic people's money. I think, honestly, it's one huge area of business I lack skill in. Taking advantage of the weak. Would love to hear other's thoughts though. __________________ ICQ # 253483920 E-mail : ryan1978@insightbb.com

12-12-2005	#2
Winetalk.com Prostate Examiner I quoff fine wine at corkd.com Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: good 'ole USA Posts: 21,018	Re: Morals and this industry By doing this you denied the "weak" of a valuable lesson in life and business. Instead of him getting experience, you haven't taught him anything. This is YOUR fault. Education is NOT free in America. You could have made a difference in person life, but you have chosen to leave him unenlighted and have yourself a miserable Xmas instead - karma at it's best. The best education in HTML design I have gotten back in 1996, when I was charged $100 for 2 page design and $50 for each addition. After spending $150 for the lesson, I started charging others myself, and if I was charged $25 and free 10 updates, I'd still be paying for HTML pages.... Do you see now where you've gone wrong? __________________ why dogs sniff each other butts?

12-12-2005	#3
sarettah Stay Out Of The Box Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Lost in the ozone Posts: 10,318	Re: Morals and this industry I love it __________________ Free Adult Webcams

12-12-2005	#4
MorganGrayson None $100 for every ImLive sign-up Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,321	Re: Morals and this industry I love threads like this. Ryan, as it has been said "we all have the morals we can afford." (Hush, Nick, I know where I got the line.) Serge is right, of course. You could have taught the idiot a valuable lesson. If you had been in the mood to teach "valuable lessons" at that exact moment. Ryan, all that matters are your morals and your ability to live with your actions. If it would have taken food, shelter and medicine away from your family I think you might have made quite a different decision. (This is where the relentlessly "moral" Morgan Grayson gets off the morality boat. My first and only obligation would have been to my family and I've have - not "of," my darling Ryan - ripped that sucker off to high heaven. He'd have gotten his life lesson and I'd have taken care of my family.) Also, Ryan, you need to define a phrase for me. What constitutes a "bad Christmas"? One where you don't shower your loved ones with expensive gifts? Well, if that is the definition, then I guess my children have had a LOT of "bad Christmases." Thankfully, they never knew it and had fun anyway. You need to apply your morals to your real life and not "this business." Don't teach that little child that the heavens are going to rain down expensive toys every time. If the lady thinks Santa does a quick fly-by at Tiffanys before dropping down your chimney, disabuse her of that notion. I've only had one really bad Christmas in my life. Last year, the planes were grounded and my oldest couldn't make it in. Taking her gifts out from under my tree and packing them up to send them to her in Maine fucking sucked. Watching my youngest do the "brave face" sucked. Watching my husband lose it totally internally and not let it show on a stone face fucking sucked. Waiting for her to call and tell me that she made it safely from the airport in New Hampshire back to Maine and not getting a call because she stopped off at a friend's house and cried and got drunk out of her mind fucking sucked. Nothing in this "bad Christmas" involved money.

12-12-2005	#5
Red Dreaming of a Cowboy Hat like Max Hardcore Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,812	Re: Morals and this industry Morgan makes a good point. Being dishonest to prospective customers just to buy expensive gifts? Nope, I wouldn't do it. If it meant being able to pay my bills, I'd do it in a minute. __________________

12-12-2005	#6
Winetalk.com Prostate Examiner I quoff fine wine at corkd.com Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: good 'ole USA Posts: 21,018	Re: Morals and this industry please define dishonest. If one doesn't beleive that his time is not worth whatever one can charge - the one is not dishonest, the one is just...incompetent. Ryan, are you incompetent? __________________ why dogs sniff each other butts?

12-12-2005	#8
MorganGrayson None $100 for every ImLive sign-up Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,321	Re: Morals and this industry In any discussion, all parties must first define their terms. This is going to get interesting....

12-12-2005	#9
Nickatilynx Banned Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 15,115	Re: Morals and this industry I still LOVE seeing all the pornographers with morals peek out. LOL Little tip for you Ryan , relevant to this business.. "Morals are inveresly proportional to net worth" Many said it was immoral to: spam spam search engines use blind links use consoles shave spyware/adware ( pretty much everything that made money was considered "immoral" Morals are a convenient excuse to rationalise failure... "Hi honey ,Oh I could have made a fortune , but on moral grounds I didn't" ahahahahaha pathetic!!!!!!

12-12-2005	#13
TheEnforcer Scored VIP to Anton's Piss Tank Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,781	Re: Morals and this industry It is all what one can live with themselves that makes the decision for them. To some people that extra money would come at too high of a price. To others it wouldn't even be a consideration. It really does come down to we all have the morals we can afford as everyone sets their own limits on what they feel is the right level of morality they can accept doing business by. All anyone can do is tell you what THEIR morals would allow them to do but ultimately it all comes down to how your level of comfort with your actions.

12-12-2005	#16
Nickatilynx Banned Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 15,115	Re: Morals and this industry You confuse morals for decency. I am always decent , rarely moral.

12-12-2005	#19
Sin My program is online. 90 days to MILLIONS! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 1,278	Re: Morals and this industry I'm far from an expert, but here's my take on it. Business & Personal are seperate, there's a reason they tell you to leave your "life" behind you when you walk into work. Good business is being honest with the customer if it means the customer will earn you money --Either right then, or in the future either themselves or by word of mouth. You might not see the payoff immediately but depending on how it all unfolded you may see it later on down the road when people come to you that say they were referred by that individual. This is applicable mostly in scenarios where you don't offer the service/product the customer is looking for. Point is, that either way you get business. Getting business & clients, is good business. Bad business is when you are honest to the point of simply losing out on business, or when you're dishonest to the point that word gets out that you just screw people over. I think it also depends on the quality of the product/service that you're offering, whether or not ripping idiots off is a risk worth taking. There are times when I've paid more for something, later found out I could've gotten it (or something similar) much cheaper, but I've been so pleased with the end product/result/whatever, that I have simply concluded that you get what you pay for. (maybe that makes me one of the idiots that gets ripped off, who knows) Oftentimes "nice" doesn't equal "good" is what I've found out recently. I'll use a rather frivolous example I suppose, but a while ago I decided to get a gel nail set. I phoned around town because I prefer to "shop around" rather than simply walk blindly into any store for something like that. I chatted with the people at each place for a few minutes, and finally settled on one where the girl was really nice, really friendly, really helpful, answered all my questions, seems they knew what they were doing. The nails turned out awful. Like, truly truly terrible. It was unfortunately my first time getting them done, and even more unfortunately I'm not very good at kicking up a fuss in person when in public, so I simply kept my mouth shut, figured "I don't know a thing about fake nails" and finally after a week of misery, decided to go into the place I'd originally thought of (but hadn't decided to go to, because of how abrupt & dismissive they'd been on the phone). By the time I went in there, I just wanted the things off my fingers. They looked at them & then asked if I wanted them fixed. It was the same price either way, so I opted to take a 2nd chance & go for the fix rather than the removal. They turned out gorgeous the 2nd time around. Ryan if you were able to provide the product or service for those supposed idiots, and they were willing to pay the price, you should've. Some people are idiots who don't know any better, some may simply have had far too much money & simply not given a shit but if these "idiots" took their money and their business elsewhere, then that's really bad business IMO. We rarely pay the actual value of anything we buy, stores would never profit & doors would close rather quickly if they sold stuff at cost (or at what their "actual" value may be) __________________ The new way to sell your Exclusive Video!!

12-12-2005	#20
Nickatilynx Banned Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 15,115	Re: Morals and this industry Ryan its this simple.... Business is a fucking game just like poker. Everyone knows the rules. - if you don't , you will lose. You wanna play? Then you play to win. The thing about business is a lot more fish dabble in it than there is on any poker table

12-12-2005	#23
Sin My program is online. 90 days to MILLIONS! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 1,278	Re: Morals and this industry Just thought of another story from my job at the Brewery... Had a customer about a year ago that was unhappy with the bottling station he was set up on. Wanted to move. In the spirit of providing good service, I decided to move him to station 2. Then I realized there was already someone booked for Station 2 that was much to my horror, already there in the store & washing their bottles. Now I had to speed up the moving process, so I could get the first station cleaned & the person set up there. I fumbled the ball so to speak, and managed to offend the first guy while trying to get him moved over to the other station quicker. He actually blew up at me in a manner that shocked everybody else in the store, He was much taller & larger than I am, and got in my face, his daughter was pleading with him to please just forget about it (for about 15 min after they were all set up on the 2nd station... he really went off) ...and my boss & coworker were both present & listening (as was the other customer) and regardless, if I had simply done nothing, I still would've been in "the right" as far as my morals went along with everybody else's who was present. I was already earning bonus points in my own book since I have quite a ferocious temper when I feel I am unnecessarily attacked... and I managed to remain quite calm. Except just letting it go as was, would've been bad business. The guy would've left & never came back. We have records, and so I looked at them. Unfortunately for me this guy has been a customer at that place for over 10 years. It would be (in my books) real bad business to lose a customer like that. So I took 10, went in the back, vented at my coworker for a few minutes, and then against every moral in my personal self, I swallowed my pride, went out to the front & apologized to the customer. (And yes I spent a few min in the back first, thinking of a way in which I could actually manage to apologize which wouldn't go against my morals) A few weeks later the customer himself came back to apologize to me, apparently... (according to the rest of the staff) and he's still a customer there. __________________ The new way to sell your Exclusive Video!!

12-12-2005	#28
Anthony Banned The global leader in pay-per-view AEBN Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,246	Re: Morals and this industry I think I can pinpoint the what makes differences in people. Balls. Simple.

12-12-2005	#29
Anthony Banned The global leader in pay-per-view AEBN Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,246	Re: Morals and this industry I find it quite interesting that both NIck and I have balls on the brains. It is of no wonder why we are so close.

12-12-2005	#30
Nickatilynx Banned Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 15,115	Re: Morals and this industry Amen Brother Anthony.. Everyone gets chances to make a success of their life , many people see the chance , the great seperator is few have the balls to take the chance , and later when they realise the mistake they made they come up with an excuse to portray themselves as "nice / kind /considerate",to justify what they already know.That they are failures.

12-12-2005	#32
selena plankton in the sea of porn Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: On The Edge Posts: 509	Re: Morals and this industry When it's all said and done, no matter how much I'd like to think differently, I would have probably went for the cash. __________________ Affiliate Manager JaYMan Cash That One Program ICQ 273551440

12-12-2005	#36
Anthony Banned The global leader in pay-per-view AEBN Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,246	Re: Morals and this industry Ryan, I am the nice one of the dynamic duo. Let me break it down to you. Look at all the data on successful people. I bet you don't see nice/kind/considerate anywhere in their bio. Nick used to call it the quickening back in the day. It's true, chop the fuckers head off, or you get yours chopped off.

12-12-2005	#38
Sin My program is online. 90 days to MILLIONS! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 1,278	Re: Morals and this industry Oh and if you've learned that I'm an idiot, I do hope you'll show me where... I quite look up to you, Nick. __________________ The new way to sell your Exclusive Video!!

12-12-2005	#46
Sin My program is online. 90 days to MILLIONS! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 1,278	Re: Morals and this industry You're intelligent, quick of wit, you cause others to question themselves often (something that too few people do on their own, so its good there's people like you out there) and you're willing to share tidbits of knowledge with the people who are smart enough to recognize them for what they are. And telling me not to respect you won't work. __________________ The new way to sell your Exclusive Video!!