Spirituality, Religion, it's all bullshit....

[TheEnforcer]

Good post PD! :>))

[PornoDoggy]

I've had some practice at this one.

This is a discussion that takes place around the tables of 12 step groups on a routine basis.

It's more than mere semantics.

If human beings were wired binary, a decision would be an action.

We ain't.

It ain't.

[Dravyk]

Is the chair casting a shadow or is the shadow casting a chair?







I'm Super Cunty today.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

I've had some practice at this one.

This is a discussion that takes place around the tables of 12 step groups on a routine basis.

It's more than mere semantics.

If human beings were wired binary, a decision would be an action.

We ain't.

It ain't.

In a 12 Step Program it is necessary that decisions never be considered actions. The members would float on "well, I've made the decision to stop...whatever so I get points for that." No, you don't. Not in 12 Steps. In those programs, there are *specific* actions that must be undertaken.

[Newton]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

I'm Super Cunty today.

Delightful

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Is the chair casting a shadow or is the shadow casting a chair?







I'm Super Cunty today.

Of course you are, dear. It's a day that ends in "Y."

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Of course you are, dear. It's a day that ends in "Y."

On another day, I'd laugh, give you a thumbs up and some points ....

Today, I'll just growl.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

In a 12 Step Program it is necessary that decisions never be considered actions. The members would float on "well, I've made the decision to stop...whatever so I get points for that." No, you don't. Not in 12 Steps. In those programs, there are *specific* actions that must be undertaken.

If you want to get coffee or lose weight, there are specific actions that need to be taken.

Deciding you need coffee or are fat does not get you any Joe or any thinner.

[PornoDoggy]

And today is different from any other day because ... ?

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

If you want to get coffee or lose weight, there are specific actions that need to be taken.

Deciding you need coffee or are fat does not get you any Joe or any thinner.

No, that's true.
But I'm making a separation between the actions that isn't determined by the results. The decision to lose weight was one action; the subsequent action that actually causes the weight loss (which is in reality a series of daily decisions) is another.
One can have the first action and a failure to commit the subsequent actions.

[MorganGrayson]

Paraphrasing:

Hear the clash of tiny swords of semantics....

[PornoDoggy]

So ... if I decide I want to play professional baseball next summer, and draw a salary 10% higher than Roger Clemens - I've taken an action?

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

So ... if I decide I want to play professional baseball next summer, and draw a salary 10% higher than Roger Clemens - I've taken an action?

Yes. You have *made* a decision.
The fact that it is an asinine decision does not enter into it.

Most actions people take, mentally and physically, are rather asinine, as a perusal of the morning news will display.

[Dravyk]

I've made the decision that and the action of metaphysically hitting you all with a trout.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

I've made the decision that and the action of metaphysically hitting you all with a trout.

*sigh*

...and taken the action of....

I hate it when bad things happen to good sentences.

[Trev]

I really should have thought long and hard before uploading so many smilies

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

If you want to get coffee or lose weight, there are specific actions that need to be taken.

Deciding you need coffee or are fat does not get you any Joe or any thinner.

You are right, deciding does not get you thinner. That is not the result of deciding. The result of deciding is whatever the next step in the process would be.

However, not deciding is also a decision and an action who's result is NOT the next ste[p in the process of losing weight.

We are the sum total of all decsions we have made.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

I really should have thought long and hard before uploading so many smilies

Each and every decision has it's consequence. You made your bed, now lie in it

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

So ... if I decide I want to play professional baseball next summer, and draw a salary 10% higher than Roger Clemens - I've taken an action?

The action you have taken is "setting a goal", so yes.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Each and every decision has it's consequence. You made your bed, now lie in it

Please don't interupt me while I'm trying to decide how many smilies need deleting.

[Newton]

Originally Posted by sarettah

We are the sum total of all decsions we have made.

I fucking hate traffic wardens ..

[Sin]

Must suck having no belief system at all... I agree religion is bullshit but I don't think that spirituality is bullshit.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

Must suck having no belief system at all... I agree religion is bullshit but I don't think that spirituality is bullshit.

Define spirituality.

[Sin]

For me its easier to just paste the summary of my personal beliefs.
(This is from another forum, non-adult, where a similar discussion was taking place)

Alright, since I do not believe in "a form of overseer or creator" I will start by trying to outline my own personal beliefs...

I really have no real recollection of when specifically I decided that I simply did not believe in a singular higher power. I was baptized, grew up in a religious family, went to church camps in the summer, was a member of CGIT... etc. At some point, however, I concluded that the notion of a singular higher power simply did not fit. I would rather use the terms "singular higher power" than "God" because for me "God" is associated with Christianity & to only acknowledge "God" is to disregard the existance of other organized religions which have existed just as long, if not longer.

When I look back at the theories of evolution, scientifically proven, they make sense. When I look at other science theories, how smaller pieces interact with one another to make a greater whole, it makes sense. Nowhere in our world, in any kind of level, does it make sense to have a singular higher power. Physically, we have protons & neutrons which make up the nucleus which is a part of atoms which compose molecules which compose matter, which plays whatever part it happens to have, in our physical realm, even if its as seemingly insignificant as a trashcan, it has its place in the room in the building the building has its place in the community, the community has its place in the country, the country has its place in the world/on earth, earth has its place in the universe... it goes on as so. Politically we have the children which are a part of the family which is a part of the community which leads up to the municipal government which leads up to provincial/state/whatever the system is level of government, which leads up to national government, which has its part in the global society again... everything interacts, everything plays a part of something even bigger. To me the idea of a single higher power that is due credit for 'creating' and then stepping back & having nothing else to do with us but play chess with our destinies, doesn't fit in the way nature itself, works. So many more examples could be brought up than the 2 I detailed above, which are extremely basic.

I do believe in a soul. I believe that yet again, our very presence here on earth is an integral part of a soul's development. Think back to the days when a classroom was not segregated by age rank, and everybody was in one room, one instructor, learning together. Enlarge that now.... Earth is our classroom, we are all the students, and we are all at different levels. We have all encountered people who without even trying can manage to somehow unintentionally make us feel small in comparison, or look up to them, and we've also on the other hand met or heard stories about yet other people who do things which shock and appall us because "Don't they know that's wrong?" --Chances are they don't know that's wrong. Chances are (in my personal belief system) that we're shocked & appalled because their behavior is something that our soul has already learned, in a past life. There are some things that parents, teachers, other mentor figureheads in our lives, don't tell us that we just KNOW is wrong. That knowledge, comes from our past experiences in this classroom we call earth. From other lives, from other lessons. Our soul will come back life after life after life, until it has grown up enough if you will, to move on past the classroom, past this earth, into yet even a bigger picture, a larger more matured 'soul system' if you will. Much like children go through school, to graduate, and become members of the community, each fulfills a different purpose.

I do believe in Karma. I'm putting this in a seperate paragraph because its a bit of a sidetrack. Lessons for a soul are not always going to be learned in one lifetime, I do not believe. I'll use Clifford Olson as my example... I do not believe that jail is karma for him. I do not believe that being in jail is teaching his soul anything, that he is truly learning the err of his ways. I believe that when he passes from this life, the particular lesson he's here to learn, will carry on to the next life, possibly lives. When he is here as a child, and dies a horribly violent death, perhaps one for each child he killed, when his soul comes back and is the parent of a child who is killed, that is when his soul will truly understand, when it will truly have learned, when it will come back & live a life & not kill again, it'll know not to... it will be here for another lesson, a different one.

That’s a summary

I could probably add plenty more detail to that if I felt like typing it all out, but hopefully that gives you all a general idea.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

For me its easier to just paste the summary of my personal beliefs.
(This is from another forum, non-adult, where a similar discussion was taking place)

Alright, since I do not believe in "a form of overseer or creator" I will start by trying to outline my own personal beliefs...

Autobigraphical stuff...........

Theory stuff.........

Soul stuff.........

Karma stuff............

That’s a summary

I could probably add plenty more detail to that if I felt like typing it all out, but hopefully that gives you all a general idea.

Ok, I read all of that (really I did) and I did not see any definition of spirituality in there. I saw a whole lot of stuff you believe and why you believe it, but previously you stated "I don't think that spirituality is bullshit", so if you could please elucidate as to what you consider "spirituality" to be, I will then shoot it down er, I mean, offer up my opinion on the matter

[Sin]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Ok, I read all of that (really I did) and I did not see any definition of spirituality in there. I saw a whole lot of stuff you believe and why you believe it, but previously you stated "I don't think that spirituality is bullshit", so if you could please elucidate as to what you consider "spirituality" to be, I will then shoot it down er, I mean, offer up my opinion on the matter

*WHOOSH*

....it all went over your head, I see.

I don't think spirituality is bullshit no, for me, the above is my idea of being spiritual, (of or pertaining to the spirit/soul)

You, however, don't believe in the presence of a soul it would seem, so naturally you'll disagree.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

*WHOOSH*

....it all went over your head, I see.

I don't think spirituality is bullshit no, for me, the above is my idea of being spiritual, (of or pertaining to the spirit/soul)

You, however, don't believe in the presence of a soul it would seem, so naturally you'll disagree.

So, in your definition of spirituality which you are so not giving me, it requires belief in a soul.

Ok, then would you define soul for me ?

[Sin]

Sarettah, I am not going to spend hours trying to give definitions to things you don't believe in to start with. I'm not here to change your mind, you don't want to believe in the spirit or souls, that's fine with me. I do, & that's fine with me too.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

Sarettah, I am not going to spend hours trying to give definitions to things you don't believe in to start with. I'm not here to change your mind, you don't want to believe in the spirit or souls, that's fine with me. I do, & that's fine with me too.

I have not said anything in this thread as to what I believe or do not believe, if you found that in here, you (or some other commenter) put it here (and yes I will go back through and make sure of that).

I honestly cannot discuss spirtuality or the presence/absence of souls with someone without defining the terms first. It seems that each individual has decided that they have the right to assign whatever meanings they want to words. So, since I know what I mean when I say "spirituality" and "soul", I do not necessarilly know anything about what you mean when you use those words.

If it would take you hours to define, then you probably don't know what you mean either

[Sin]

It would take hours to define, because you would keep on asking me to redefine it.

Check the first post on this page, for definition.

"Spirituality: of or pertaining to spirit / soul"

If either spirit or soul had a set definition beyond a personal interpretation of what it is, there wouldn't be any real choice about whether or not you're going to believe, it would be fact, not personal belief/interpretation/etc.

[Sin]

Originally Posted by sarettah

I have not said anything in this thread as to what I believe or do not believe, if you found that in here, you (or some other commenter) put it here (and yes I will go back through and make sure of that).

In regards to that, see first post in this thread.

Originally Posted by sarettah

Sorry bout that, but it is.

We are no different than anything else in nature.

We are born and we die.

Beginning of it and end of it. Period.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by sarettah

I have not said anything in this thread as to what I believe or do not believe, if you found that in here, you (or some other commenter) put it here (and yes I will go back through and make sure of that).

Check thread title....

[Sin]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Check thread title....

lol That too

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

It would take hours to define, because you would keep on asking me to redefine it.

Check the first post on this page, for definition.

"Spirituality: of or pertaining to spirit / soul"

If either spirit or soul had a set definition beyond a personal interpretation of what it is, there wouldn't be any real choice about whether or not you're going to believe, it would be fact, not personal belief/interpretation/etc.

Well, of course if "spirit" is in the definition of spirituality then it needs to be defined. If spirit is synonymous with soul then one or the other has to be defined before an intelligent conversation can be had about it.

If your idea of spirit is "thought without physical presence" meaning ghosties and goblins and such then yes, I will label it as bullshit.

If spirit is definied as the inner lifeforce that all living things have then I would not label that as bullshit. It is a fact that we are driven by energy, we convert energy every nanosecond we are alive and when we die whatever energy is left in the physical parts that remain go back to the whole.

So, which definition of spirit are we using here ?

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Check thread title....

I believe the yuts use the term..OWNED!!!!

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Check thread title....

Response one:
The thread title is based in fact, not belief


Secondary response:
If my thread titles are taken as my beliefs then you guys have a really warped picture of me...lololol...

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

I believe the yuts use the term..OWNED!!!!

Hi Yut

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

In regards to that, see first post in this thread.

Again, where do you get my beliefs from in there.

I stated facts not beliefs.

[Sin]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Well, of course if "spirit" is in the definition of spirituality then it needs to be defined. If spirit is synonymous with soul then one or the other has to be defined before an intelligent conversation can be had about it.

If your idea of spirit is "thought without physical presence" meaning ghosties and goblins and such then yes, I will label it as bullshit.

If spirit is definied as the inner lifeforce that all living things have then I would not label that as bullshit. It is a fact that we are driven by energy, we convert energy every nanosecond we are alive and when we die whatever energy is left in the physical parts that remain go back to the whole.

So, which definition of spirit are we using here ?

The latter definition you gave there. I don't believe in ghosties & goblins, I believe in "ghosties" in the sense that the energy of an individual can linger in an area after their physical form has passed, I've lived in a house where the original owners energy was still there & it was not 'hoaxy' it was quite noticeable not just to me, but my roommates, and any guests we had as well.

I don't believe in billowing white floaty things though.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Response one:
The thread title is based in fact, not belief


Secondary response:
If my thread titles are taken as my beliefs then you guys have a really warped picture of me...lololol...

Oh, for fuck's sake, sarettah...enough already!! My chain is curled up and safely put away and no longer available for the yank session you've got going.

"Thread title is based in fact, not belief"

Yeah, baby, sell those facts...pass that collection plate...sell those bibbles....

[Nickatilynx]

On the subject of ghosties...

I've never been grabbed by the ghosties , but I have been grabbed by the ghoulies.

[Sin]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Again, where do you get my beliefs from in there.

I stated facts not beliefs.

You stated beliefs.
You can neither disprove the presence of a spirit or soul anymore than I can prove it. It boils down to what we as individuals, choose to believe or disbelieve.

[Newton]

I have actually experienced a poltergeist at my ex sister in laws place in London .. saw a plank of wood she was using as a shelf with 3 or 4 books on, literally flip over several times which isnt possibly with the weight of the books on it .. was looking straight at it ..

Another time I was in a dark room with no light except for the moonlight .. saw 3 figures who were actually a lot darker than the black of the walls move along them, these were hooded figures with features that could be seen such as fingers creeping along the wall and about 5.5ft tall.

[Nickatilynx]

I've been at a seance that worked...

thing moved without anyone touching it in the end.Then flew in the air.

People lost their minds and a Clergyman came round and ripped into everyone that took part.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

You stated beliefs.
You can neither disprove the presence of a spirit or soul anymore than I can prove it. It boils down to what we as individuals, choose to believe or disbelieve.

When someone in a laboratory setting can prove spirit or soul it will stop being bullshit, until then, all empirical evidence ppoints to the non existence of such, so it is bullshit.

As far as beliefs go. each person always has their own beliefs, often going in direct contradiction to established fact.

My daughter believes (for some reason) that if she ignores her credit card bills that they will somehow go away and not haunt her (lol...she even told me on one "oh, they'll just write it off"..I had to explain to her the implications of that)

Often people believe in God and spirits, etc because of personal proof (more often they believe it because the same person who told them about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny told them to believe it). That personal proof is often a "one time occurence" so it cannot be proven in any manner but the person will believe it wholeheartedly because they witnessed it and that is all the proof they need.

Facts just are.

[sarettah]

By the way. The way things work in the scientific world is that the burden of proof is on the claimant, as in those that claim something IS have to prove it IS, not the other way around. No matter how you try to flip flop it.

[Red]

Originally Posted by sarettah

When someone in a laboratory setting can prove spirit or soul it will stop being bullshit, until then, all empirical evidence ppoints to the non existence of such, so it is bullshit.

So does that mean that all the scientific facts we now know were all bullshit until they were proven?

[Sin]

Sarettah the problem that I have with that ideology is that if everybody thought that "What we have is all there is & all we know is all there is" is that things would never get invented.

I'm going to use electricity as an example. There was a time, when people did not know electricity. Does this mean that the potential for electricity to be created, was simply not there? No, it simply meant that it had not yet been discovered. Just because something cannot be scientifically explained at this point & time, does not mean that it won't at some point be able to, nor does it mean that it "doesn't exist"

The possibility is there, people just have to look for it. Those who do, have a better chance of finding it.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Sin

The possibility is there, people just have to look for it. Those who do, have a better chance of finding it.

My own personal pearl, if nothing else.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

Sarettah the problem that I have with that ideology is that if everybody thought that "What we have is all there is & all we know is all there is" is that things would never get invented.

I'm going to use electricity as an example. There was a time, when people did not know electricity. Does this mean that the potential for electricity to be created, was simply not there? No, it simply meant that it had not yet been discovered. Just because something cannot be scientifically explained at this point & time, does not mean that it won't at some point be able to, nor does it mean that it "doesn't exist"

The possibility is there, people just have to look for it. Those who do, have a better chance of finding it.

You do not need to believe that something is actually there to go look for it. I have never said "What we have is all there is & all we know is all there is" or anything near to it. There is so much we don't know that it dwarfs by many magnitudes what we actually do know.

That we don't know something is not a reason to make up a belief to fill in a gap.