Spirituality, Religion, it's all bullshit....

[Nickatilynx]

You can chose ...

IMO , heaven or hell is in each and everyone of you.

TE , I feel sorry for you mate , anyone reading your posts can see you are bitterly unhappy.

Try and find something you can believe in.Anything.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

See, believing there is nothing after this life doesn't bother me one bit. Maybe it is hard for you to understand but it's true. I find it bizarre that someone could think it frightens/bothers me that I won't have an afterlife.

Then I guess we'll carry on as before. You happy with yours and me happy with mine.

I do find it interesting that you say "won't" and not "don't".

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by Newton

What are your fundamental beliefs chap? Why are we here?

I'm a big bang, evolution advocate, no afterlife atheist who hass a mixture of heavy doses of liberal and libertarian beliefs, with a bit of conservative ones thrown in as well, about life. As to the why we are here... it's because in the whole of the universe the billions upon billions of possibilities led us to where we are today and that it is quite arrogant to believe that in the vastness that is space we are the only ones in it with intelligence.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

You can chose ...

IMO , heaven or hell is in each and everyone of you.

TE , I feel sorry for you mate , anyone reading your posts can see you are bitterly unhappy.

Try and find something you can believe in.Anything.

I appreciate those kind of posts because I know them to be heartfelt.

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

I appreciate those kind of posts because I know them to be heartfelt.

It really is.

Cheer the fuck up!!! lol

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

I may not believe but I would never force that belief on others.

Bullshit. You force your beliefs on the world around you in every decision you make.

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Bullshit. You force your beliefs on the world around you in every decision you make.

And as for you!!!!

You are happy enough , you old git...just mischievious LOL

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Bullshit. You force your beliefs on the world around you in every decision you make.

That's garbage, I've just decided to make a pot of coffee, the rest of the world was unaware until just now...

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Trev

That's garbage, I've just decided to make a pot of coffee, the rest of the world was unaware until just now...

Yep. I was totally unaware of Trev's coffee making.
Unless, of course, his desire to make a pot of coffee was triggered by *my* making a pot of coffee a bit ago.

I wonder what else I can make Trev do?

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

That's garbage, I've just decided to make a pot of coffee, the rest of the world was unaware until just now...

You can cause damage without being aware you are causing damage.

You can become damaged without being aware that you are damaged.


"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Sir Isaac Newton circa a whole long time ago

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

That's garbage, I've just decided to make a pot of coffee, the rest of the world was unaware until just now...

Secondary Response:

What did the coffee think about that ?

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

it is quite arrogant to believe that in the vastness that is space we are the only ones in it with intelligence.

A small correction if I may:

it is quite arrogant to believe that on this planet we are the only ones with intelligence.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

You can cause damage without being aware you are causing damage.

You can become damaged without being aware that you are damaged.


"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Sir Isaac Newton circa a whole long time ago

So you're applying a law of force to decision making... mkay then

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Secondary Response:

What did the coffee think about that ?

The coffee was a little upset at the lack of a press release announcing it's pending arrival.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Bullshit. You force your beliefs on the world around you in every decision you make.

I'm talking about going out and actively trying to chnage minds and trying to convert everyone to my atheistic beliefs. It's really quite simple.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by sarettah

A small correction if I may:

it is quite arrogant to believe that on this planet we are the only ones with intelligence.

Bigger correction: it's quite arrogant to believe that we have any "intelligence" whatsoever.

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

I'm a big bang, evolution advocate, no afterlife atheist who hass a mixture of heavy doses of liberal and libertarian beliefs, with a bit of conservative ones thrown in as well, about life. As to the why we are here... it's because in the whole of the universe the billions upon billions of possibilities led us to where we are today and that it is quite arrogant to believe that in the vastness that is space we are the only ones in it with intelligence.

I'm curious: you've tied several things together here. I'm a religious person, who believes in evolution. (I'm a little leery of "The Big Bang" theory and will be until someone explains to me exactly what it was that went "bang.") I don't believe in a "grand design" kind of "why are we here?" thing. There's a reason why you are here; there's a reason why I am here, etc - but they aren't the same reasons. I also don't believe we're the only ones in the universe. Gaia - or we could use "Mother Nature" here - isn't big on waste. A huge universe with absolutely nothing or no one in it seems like a terrible waste of space, not to mention being boring as hell. I don't believe in a boring universe, either.

[Peaches]

When I make a decision to poot it causes large tidal waves on the other side of the world. I can't prove it though

[PornoDoggy]

I admit that this thread surprised me – I did not know Sar was a Moslem. (“They was all Moslems, Tom said, and when I asked him what a Moslem was, he said it was a person that wasn't a Presbyterian. So there is plenty of them in Missouri, though I didn't know it before.” Huck Finn (Mark Twain), Tom Sawyer Abroad, Page 1, Paragraph 5)

Belief in an afterlife is not a prerequisite for achieving quality of life. The fact that I do or don't believe in a state of existence subsequent to this one has no bearing on whether this existence is worth enduring.

Why are we here?

Because we are.

It is really that simple.

That's a hard one for people to accept. After all, at least in the West, as children we are taught that "because is not an answer."

Except that sometimes it is. As usual, the fucking grownups were lying.

I dunno about the whole idea of God. Grew up a Christian. Might have read a book or two about other concepts - I'm sure the library records are now in my file in Washington.

It's all just man trying to wrap his head around the whole "why are we here" question, and having been programmed that "because is not an answer" by the lying fucking adults, he comes up with something else (even if that something else is "there is no point"). Then ego kicks in, and the holder of idea A has to denigrate the holder of idea B to make himself feel better about his own uncertainty.

So I dunno what’s true or what’s not true. I am an Agnostic. If you can't prove your idea to me by putting something in my hand, or showing me something under a microscope or in a telescope, then your idea is no better than his or hers or mine. Smug nonbelievers are no more and no less insufferable than smug believers.

What do I believe?

In a silly-ass song from the play "Hair" is a line that goes "I believe in God, and I believe that God believes in me."

To crudely paraphrase a discussion between Anna and the King of Siam, "seven days or seven million years, the miracle of creation is the same."

And to quote a wise man, "Sometimes the light is shining on me, and other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me what a long strange trip it's been."

Essentially, that has been the gist of my "theology" since 1970.

Thus endeth the reading of the Word.

Bird is the word.

Um-papa uuuh moow moow.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

So you're applying a law of force to decision making... mkay then

Is a decision an "action" ?

If you make a decision (any decision) are there consequences ?

If you fail to make a decision (which is by default making a decision) are there consequences ?

Yes, the laws of motion can be applied to decisions.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Is a decision an "action" ?

If you make a decision (any decision) are there consequences ?

If you fail to make a decision (which is by default making a decision) are there consequences ?

Yes, the laws of motion can be applied to decisions.

A decision is not an action.

Deciding I need coffee from the store does not get the coffee here.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Is a decision an "action" ?

If you make a decision (any decision) are there consequences ?

If you fail to make a decision (which is by default making a decision) are there consequences ?

Yes, the laws of motion can be applied to decisions.

No they can't, the laws of force and motion are just that - the laws of force and motion.

You're statements answer themselves:

If you make a decision (any decision) are there consequences?

If you fail to make a decision (which is by default making a decision) are there consequences?

Decisions and actions have consequence... they aren't equal or opposite though.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Why are we here?

Because we are.

It is really that simple.

That's a hard one for people to accept. After all, at least in the West, as children we are taught that "because is not an answer."

Except that sometimes it is. As usual, the fucking grownups were lying.

I was luckier. I was raised Roman Catholic, where "it's a mystery" was the stock answer for most questions in Catechism class. The "no answer" answer. Even has a kid I knew that meant "we haven't got a fucking clue."

We're here because we're supposed to be...if we weren't supposed to be, we wouldn't be. Why are we supposed to be? No fucking clue.

One of the most comforting, wonderful ephiphanies I ever had in my life was the realization that I don't have to know. I'm not in charge. Whoever or whatever the Supreme Being is, I know for certain it isn't me. Therefore, the universe will unfold exactly as it should without any understanding or intervention on my part. I can sit back and enjoy the ride.

I like the ride. From where I'm sitting I can look out my living room window and watch hawks ride the air currents and hummingbirds feed off the jade plant. Discussing theology with Opranauts is a nice thing to do on a day when the sun is shining and the birds are flying.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

A decision is not an action.

Deciding I need coffee from the store does not get the coffee here.

The logical conclusion of the decision "I need coffee from the store" is to somehow put your body/mind/whatever into motion to obtain the coffee from the store, not getting the coffee.

If you do not decide that you need coffee then the logical conclusion is that you will not get into motion to obtain the coffee and if in fact there was no coffee in your pantry then you would end up out of coffee.

So, in fact each decision is an action and each action produces a reaction.

action: decision - I need coffee from the store.
reaction: body/mind goes into motion to obtain coffee.

action: decision - I will use the car to go to the store to get the coffee.
reaction - grab car keys and head for the door.

etc etc so on so forth ad infinitum....

[OldJeff]

Decisions are not actions, acting on a decision is.

It is every bit as arrogant, and ignorant to say "THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE" as it is to say "THERE IS ONE".

Truth is we simply do not know. But we are gonna find out, maybe, maybe not.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

No they can't, the laws of force and motion are just that - the laws of force and motion.

You're statements answer themselves:

If you make a decision (any decision) are there consequences?

If you fail to make a decision (which is by default making a decision) are there consequences?

Decisions and actions have consequence... they aren't equal or opposite though.

A consequence is merely the result of an action or a reaction. The presence of a consequence affirms the presence of the action.

And they are opposite and equal

[OldJeff]

Originally Posted by sarettah

action: decision - I need coffee from the store.
reaction: body/mind goes into motion to obtain coffee.

action: decision - I will use the car to go to the store to get the coffee.
reaction - grab car keys and head for the door.

etc etc so on so forth ad infinitum....

Nope your reactions are the actions in these statements

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

A consequence is merely the result of an action or a reaction. The presence of a consequence affirms the presence of the action.

And they are opposite and equal

So by that thinking it must be true that for every person that decides you're a mental cocksucker, there is a person the decides you're a sane pussy licker... Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by sarettah

The logical conclusion of the decision "I need coffee from the store" is to somehow put your body/mind/whatever into motion to obtain the coffee from the store, not getting the coffee.

If you do not decide that you need coffee then the logical conclusion is that you will not get into motion to obtain the coffee and if in fact there was no coffee in your pantry then you would end up out of coffee.

So, in fact each decision is an action and each action produces a reaction.

action: decision - I need coffee from the store.
reaction: body/mind goes into motion to obtain coffee.

action: decision - I will use the car to go to the store to get the coffee.
reaction - grab car keys and head for the door.

etc etc so on so forth ad infinitum....

A decision is a mental process (I need coffee).

An action is a physical process (I go get coffee).

The decision has no impact UNLESS you take action.

If a decision was an action, I would have lost 75 pounds and no longer consume tobacco products.

I have made the decision that I need to loose weight many times. I have made the decision that I need to quit smoking many times.

My failure to take subsequent actions to effect those changes does not negate the decision.

The decision that you need coffee has an impact on no one.

The action of going to get coffee can impact many people. If, for example, you run over a cop in a crosswalk the impact of your actions (leaving the house, starting the car, blah blah blah) will ripple around you.

[pushpills]

Everyone can believe in whatever they want, educating them to my standpoint isn't much of a concern to me. A wise man once said "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Anyway, as far as my beliefs go, I think we just regenerate through the dirt that we rot in, but I accept the possibility of a god. However, I highly doubt he/she/it would be so vein as to punish me for all eternity for not singing in praise and believing 100% in him/her/it without much scientific proof.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Nope your reactions are the actions in these statements

Au contraire, the decision was the action. To make the decisions all sorts of electrons flowed across synapses to form the thoughts. That is the action. The reaction to the thought process is taking the step that the decision calls for.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Au contraire, the decision was the action. To make the decisions all sorts of electrons flowed across synapses to form the thoughts. That is the action. The reaction to the thought process is taking the step that the decision calls for.

You really are an argumentative old shit aren't you.

[Red]

Originally Posted by DrGuile

That's scientific like Im a 40 year-old MILF.

Oh man, you probably got "signed up" in a few cults eh?

I'm not saying it's a proven scientific theory, I'm just saying it makes sense.
I've had a few experiences that lead me to believe that there is something more and that we each go through many incarnations.

The reason I believe that our "essence", if you will, travels with you is this.
When I was 19, I was in the hospital with a blood clot in my leg. At one point, I had fallen into the deepest sleep I had ever experienced and felt myself floating above my body. (before this occured, I had absolutely no belief in astral projection) I saw the doctor come into my room and have a conversation with my mother. She was telling him that my breathing didn't look right. I remember fighting, trying to wake up. When I finally did, I repeated the entire conversation my mother and the doctor had, told them exactly what they had been doing while talking. They sent me down for a lung scan and found the blood clot had moved to my lungs and I was very close to death. Most people who have been with a loved one when they die say that they can feel the spirit leave the body.

Also when I was in my 20's I was a participant in a study at the University of Pennsylvania dealing with hypnosis and past lives. I discovered 2 previous lives. At the time I still wasn't sure how much of it to believe, but around that time my mother had been at a friends house who also happened to have another friend there who is a psychic. She was not there as a "psychic" she was simply there because she was a friend of my mother's friend. Anyway, she was talking to mom and asked to hold her wedding ring. She got very few impressions of my mother, but a ton of impressions about me. She told my mother I was a very old soul and told her about my past lives. She described exactly what I had experienced. I had never met this woman, nor had I told my mother about the hypnosis.

So go ahead and call me crazy, but I have my reasons.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

A decision is a mental process (I need coffee).

An action is a physical process (I go get coffee).

The decision has no impact UNLESS you take action.

If a decision was an action, I would have lost 75 pounds and no longer consume tobacco products.

I have made the decision that I need to loose weight many times. I have made the decision that I need to quit smoking many times.

My failure to take subsequent actions to effect those changes does not negate the decision.

The decision that you need coffee has an impact on no one.

The action of going to get coffee can impact many people. If, for example, you run over a cop in a crosswalk the impact of your actions (leaving the house, starting the car, blah blah blah) will ripple around you.

*writer tip toeing into the fray*
You all have excellent points, but I believe I'm siding with sarettah on this one. Why? I put the reasons in bold. The verb you used. You "made" a decision. An action. You even referred to the actual dieting as "subsequent actions." Not *the* action, another action. There is quite a point to actions being only in the physical world, but I think it's too narrow a definition.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

So by that thinking it must be true that for every person that decides you're a mental cocksucker, there is a person the decides you're a sane pussy licker... Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

Equals and opposites are not always easy to discern.

If we accept that the exact opposite of a "mental cocksucker" is a "sane pussylicker" then yes your statement would stand as sound. But since the opposite and equal of a "mental cocksucker" could possibly be manifested many ways, while your logic may be sound your statement is not true.

[OldJeff]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Au contraire, the decision was the action. To make the decisions all sorts of electrons flowed across synapses to form the thoughts. That is the action. The reaction to the thought process is taking the step that the decision calls for.

By this statement the decision must be the reaction of the electrons flowing.

[MorganGrayson]

"There are more things in heaven and in earth than are spoken of in your philosophy, Horatio."
~Shakespeare

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

A decision is a mental process (I need coffee).

An action is a physical process (I go get coffee).

The decision has no impact UNLESS you take action.

If a decision was an action, I would have lost 75 pounds and no longer consume tobacco products.

I have made the decision that I need to loose weight many times. I have made the decision that I need to quit smoking many times.

My failure to take subsequent actions to effect those changes does not negate the decision.

The decision that you need coffee has an impact on no one.

The action of going to get coffee can impact many people. If, for example, you run over a cop in a crosswalk the impact of your actions (leaving the house, starting the car, blah blah blah) will ripple around you.

You may have decided that you need to lose weight which would be one of the first actions taken in the process. You subsequently decided, for whatever reason, not to take the additional action necessary to lose the weight. However, if you never decided that you need to lose the weigth, then you wouldn't lose it unless of course as the result of some other action such as a virus infection where you don't eat.

The decision itself is an action as much as anything else we do.

While we are alive we are in constant motion, we are incapable of NOT taking action every nanosecond that we live and breath.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Equals and opposites are not always easy to discern.

If we accept that the exact opposite of a "mental cocksucker" is a "sane pussylicker" then yes your statement would stand as sound. But since the opposite and equal of a "mental cocksucker" could possibly be manifested many ways, while your logic may be sound your statement is not true.

It's not my logic, it was my attempt at trying to understand yours.

Human actions are not bound by the laws of motion.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

By this statement the decision must be the reaction of the electrons flowing.

Did the thought cause the flow, or did the flow cause the thought ?

Or neither ?



Cogito ergo sum Or Sum ergo Cogito ?

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

*writer tip toeing into the fray*
You all have excellent points, but I believe I'm siding with sarettah on this one. Why? I put the reasons in bold. The verb you used. You "made" a decision. An action. You even referred to the actual dieting as "subsequent actions." Not *the* action, another action. There is quite a point to actions being only in the physical world, but I think it's too narrow a definition.

You did a good job of identifying the crux of the problem: "There is quite a point to actions being only in the physical world, but I think it's too narrow a definition."

I think the distinction between mental and physical is of the utmost importance.

Deciding I need to lose weight is a mental process. Medically, I have a doctor who tells me that every time I see him, so the decision is based on scientific fact.

I accept the suggestion of the doctor. It is true that I need to lose weight.

It is very true that the logical next step is to take subsequent actions to accomplish that.

But I'm a human being. What is logical is not always what I will do.

Thus, the decision means nothing without action.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

It's not my logic, it was my attempt at trying to understand yours.

Human actions are not bound by the laws of motion.

Humans are above the law ?

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Humans are above the law ?

I am.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

You did a good job of identifying the crux of the problem: "There is quite a point to actions being only in the physical world, but I think it's too narrow a definition."

I think the distinction between mental and physical is of the utmost importance.

Deciding I need to lose weight is a mental process. Medically, I have a doctor who tells me that every time I see him, so the decision is based on scientific fact.

I accept the suggestion of the doctor. It is true that I need to lose weight.

It is very true that the logical next step is to take subsequent actions to accomplish that.

But I'm a human being. What is logical is not always what I will do.

Thus, the decision means nothing without action.

Ah but you have not made the decision or actually accepted his word. If you truly accepted that you NEED to lose weight then you would make the decisions necessary to make that result happen. Since you are only giving the doctor lip service and don't really think you NEED to lose weight then you have subsequently made the decision to not take the additional steps necessary to make the weight loss happen.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

I am.

I said humans

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Humans are above the law ?

Not at all.

Humans are not even close to understanding the reaction of the electrons flowing in their own brains.

We don't even know what laws apply.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by sarettah

A small correction if I may:

it is quite arrogant to believe that on this planet we are the only ones with intelligence.

Good luck and thank you for the fish.

[Dravyk]

Btw, I just read through about 100 posts. Can some one tell me WTF that old coot is talking about this time? A summary?




So far it seems to have something to do with coffee.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Btw, I just read through about 100 posts. Can some one tell me WTF that old coot is talking about this time? A summary?

I'd be surprised if he even knew.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Trev

I'd be surprised if he even knew.

Ah, so it isn't my total lack of sleep. Good to know.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

You did a good job of identifying the crux of the problem: "There is quite a point to actions being only in the physical world, but I think it's too narrow a definition."

I think the distinction between mental and physical is of the utmost importance.

Deciding I need to lose weight is a mental process. Medically, I have a doctor who tells me that every time I see him, so the decision is based on scientific fact.

I accept the suggestion of the doctor. It is true that I need to lose weight.

It is very true that the logical next step is to take subsequent actions to accomplish that.

But I'm a human being. What is logical is not always what I will do.

Thus, the decision means nothing without action.

PD, what you have done now is criticize the action and declare it invalid...not prove that it wasn't an action. It was an action lacking the necessary subsequent actions.