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Originally posted by Rolo@Jul 4 2004, 07:34 PM
Freeloaders already have P2P systems like Kazaa etc. however consumers will not use hours on P2P to find their adult entertaiment, just to save $10-$30/month, they got jobs, families etc. to spend their time on, so if they only had the choice between P2P or paysite, then most of them would choose paysites...
I disagree with you about P2P and so does Big Champaigne.
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"Never try and be like anyone else" - Hunter S. Thompson
"The truth is the truth no matter how you try and package a lie" - Shellee Hale
The point of this industry is to generate revenue from adult traffic. We're not in the business of giving away unlimited amounts of free porn to anyone and everyone (including kids! but that's another issue altogether).
TGP owners in general seem to think that using techniques like exit consoles, dialers or even "too many links" is pushing the surfer too hard. I tend to believe that giving away too much porn (whether it's a TGP, P2P Network) for free harms the adult industry as a whole by devaluing the traffic supply.
As competition increases (and as more free porn is disributed) several things are happening in order for people to maintain revenue levels.
- Exit consoles
- Dialers
- Increased Spamming
- Agressive Cross Sales
- Misleading Toolbars
- Spyware/Adware
I've even been hearing about spyware/Virus that hijacks people's computers to swap out affiliate codes on all kinds of sites including adult!!
What other industry gives away so much free product in order to sell more of that same product? Imagine applying the unlimited FREE PORN model to other businesses. I'm not just talking about loss leaders, I'm talking just pissing away product for free.
Car dealships giving away an unlimited supply of free low end cars in order to sell full featured cars!
Movie Theatres showing unlimited films for free outside in order to upsell the nice comfy seats inside!
IBM, Dell, Compaq all giving away unlimited laptops for free to show off the features of their higher end models that cost thousands of dollars.
The key word is Unlimited. To me the model doesn't make sense and even if it did work, it won't work for long because it's devaluing it's own traffic supply. Has anyone else noticed how important paid placement has become to TGP's survival?
I'm not saying TGPs are terrible and people that are extremely agressive with the surfers are perfect. I think there is a happy medium that can be found. Of course the genie is out of the bottle with TGPs and it's not going to go back in unless sponsors stopped accepting TGP traffic for some reason. As we know, money talks and bullshit walks. There will always be sponsors willing to buy the signups!
Originally posted by gonzo@Jul 4 2004, 08:24 PM KC dont try to shoulder TGPs with the burden of creating the environment for the bullshit toolbars now.
I edited my original post to add the following paragraph.... I don't blame them directly.
I'm not saying TGPs are terrible and people that are extremely agressive with the surfers are perfect. I think there is a happy medium that can be found. Of course the genie is out of the bottle with TGPs and it's not going to go back in unless sponsors stopped accepting TGP traffic for some reason. As we know, money talks and bullshit walks. There will always be sponsors willing to buy the signups!
Another thing that kills me is the Hun will ban a counter that uses exit consoles and/or dialers on the same day that he runs galleries promoting Beastiality.
Originally posted by the Shemp@Jul 4 2004, 04:49 PM are you really saying that the TGP model needs to be changed for my benefit or for someones elses benefit? you sound like you are whining about the success of the TGPs... the surfers ultimately decide who makes money and who doesnt, all the theories and speculation dont mean a lot.
Without this turning into a debat about philosophy, then I could retort with "do surfers really have a free will where they end up? or are they presented with preselected options which they can choose from?"... sure those are also options, which they can choose from, but if the product/service/desire is not amongst the options, then they might just choose not too choose anything. Thats why its important to give surfers/consumers variety, and always market to them... the more options they see, the higher the chance they will consume.
Iīm not whining, because as I said in a previous post, then the TGP evolution has already begun... what Iīm saying is that TGPs, paysites, affiliates etc. need to realize that this will be the time, when we can rethink old concepts, since there will be more focus on making $$$... paysite should focus on better sites, tgps should allow more and better ads, and affiliates should learn to market without giving it all away for free... cause and effect will make everyone more $$$.
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by Rolo@Jul 4 2004, 08:29 PM TGPs, paysites, affiliates etc. need to realize that this will be the time, when we can rethink old concepts, since there will be more focus on making $$$... paysite should focus on better sites, tgps should allow more and better ads, and affiliates should learn to market without giving it all away for free... cause and effect will make everyone more $$$.
Originally posted by KC@Jul 4 2004, 08:27 PM Another thing that kills me is the Hun will ban a counter that uses exit consoles and/or dialers on the same day that he runs galleries promoting Beastiality.
Originally posted by gonzo@Jul 4 2004, 08:37 PM I think its more than just about th revenue....responsible revenue without destroying the biz.
I agree with that too... In fact, I'm sure every webmaster would agree with that statement. The problem, is "responsible revenue" is subjective...
What's responsible and reasonable to one is abusing the surfer to another.
One of the main contributing factors causing people to push the envelope is declining revenue. Even mainstream sites from CNN to the DrudgeReport use popups/popunders when 2 years ago they wouldn't have considered it.
I predict some TGPs will eventually utilize some of the very revenue streams they are banning today.
Remember when 80% of the industry hated the popups used by the other 20%? Now 20% of the industry hates the 80% that uses them. Just an observation.
Most of the problems I'm seeing outlined above are a byproduct of the industry's tendacy toward wanting to take shortcuts and get rich quick.
Very very few people treat their users as customers. Instead they use deception and every trick they can think of to force them to where they want them to be and in many cases charge them for things they never asked to buy.
As surfers have gotten smarter, and billing has gotten more restrictive, margins have shrunk. The result for many companies is desperation and pushing the envelope even harder. We cling to the model of $35 PPS for affiliates even though a signup is worth maybe a third of that these days. No one will back off on the price because they'll lose that traffic to the guy who says he still pays it....even though he's really shaving everyone raw.
Trying to compare what TGPs are doing to giving away free cars doesn't fly. Stick with media comparisons. It's really more like television. You get plenty of free channels loaded with great programming, but you have to put up with commercials.
Do advertisers bitch at the networks if their commercials aren't working? No, the only thing they care about is how many people see 'em. Making the commercial effective and having the product sell is the advertiser's problem. Nor is the answer trying to have certain channels on the dish or cable box that when you tune into them suddenly break your receiver so it only goes to channels owned by that advertiser.
There's gotta be an attitude shift as much as anything before things get better. Now please do go ahead and tell me I'm stupid for not making tens of millions fleecing surfers 5 years ago...
I think its more than just about th revenue....responsible revenue without destroying the biz.
WTF!!!!
I hate that shit mate , sorry.
Responsible pornographers ahahahahahahaha
pornographers with morals ahahahahahahahaha
No matter what shady , iffy things happen , are done , whatever "the biz" will not be destroyed.
Changed , yes. Not destroyed.
And when things change , the smart evolve.
I think this "biz" is do for some changes and those that adapt will survive.
While I'm on this rant.....
I don't know about other webmasters , but if I could make as much money sending traffic to "Buy these golf clubs" as I could by sendeing to "Nuns raped by nazi storn troopers horses" , I'd send to the gold clubs. (its actually now turning that way)
Personally I'm not in the adult business per se , I'm in the traffic/marketing/internet business.
There will always be an adult entertainment business of some sort , but I find myself moving more and more away from it.
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Jul 4 2004, 06:03 PM
Now please do go ahead and tell me I'm stupid for not making tens of millions fleecing surfers 5 years ago...
Originally posted by KC@Jul 4 2004, 08:27 PM Another thing that kills me is the Hun will ban a counter that uses exit consoles and/or dialers on the same day that he runs galleries promoting Beastiality.
July 4: A woman loving her dog in this movie from Antwan
July 2: Two blondes doing a horse from Mikael
I find bestiality to be pretty gross, but as a vegetarian I have to say that having sex with animals is not nearly as nasty as killing them and eating their flesh.
I've found that if the Hun likes your gallery a lot but doesn't list it he will take the time to send you mail about it. He said that my advertising was too aggressive on this gallery of mine http://kinky-cleo.com/porn/trans/eve-with-...ke/tgp/hun.html Guess it was the snake, either the one on the model or the one with scales, that made him take the time to tell me that my gallery sucked.
Actually I think that TGPs are like a cancer in this business, but being the traffic whore that I am I build galleries just like the rest.
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jul 5 2004, 09:47 AM Cleo, how did your TGP earnings change in the last 3 years?
My earnings are way up from 3 years ago, but this is due mostly to sales off of my own traffic.
I only have a few TGPs that I actually see sales off of the galleries. The rest are done just to get my recip and links out there.
Traffic is a lot of hard work to get and real easy to loose so I build and submit something every day. Some days it is a gallery and some days it is a free site. Doesn't really matter as it is all the same content but I see way more sales off of my free sites but not nearly as much sales as I see from my own internal traffic.
I actually haven't submitted something to the Hun in a very long time but recently have been trying to get something listed with Angel's site as a sponsor since I have done extremely well with his traffic if it is something that his surfers have not seen before.
Originally posted by the Shemp@Jul 4 2004, 07:49 PM If the TGP model didnt work it would have died real quick, the surfers liked it and they still like it. Surfers still buy memerships too, but of course with those thousands and thousands of paysites out there, its a little bit thin now...
Guess I should point out that Shemp's TGP is one of the very few that I actually see sales off of my galleries.
There is a huge difference between pop-ups and spyware. Those who are pushing spyware should have their nuts cut off. Pop-ups might be annoynig but spyware is all about STEALING!
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Jul 5 2004, 07:19 AM What a great thread. Very interesting for sure.
There is a huge difference between pop-ups and spyware. Those who are pushing spyware should have their nuts cut off. Pop-ups might be annoynig but spyware is all about STEALING!
yes Mike. The few threads that I do start always end up being industry movers or shakers.
Originally posted by the Shemp@Jul 4 2004, 03:36 PM
__________________
Make big money on your Domains! Why wait 40 days to get paid with the other guys? Parked.com pays the most for your traffic, and cuts checks twice a month!
Sorry I have only read 10 words in this thread and the obviously best things for Paysite owners to do is
GET RID OF TGP'S PERMANENTLY - they encourage leeches, turned paying customers into freeloaders and provide porn for underage users and others without means of paying
regrettably for at least a little while more they are here to stay
Here come look at my TGP, we give away 10,000+ free pictures everyday
and we don't let our gallery makers put more than one ad up and they pics have to be good quality and of a certain size
Shemp - nothing personal, only business - you seem like a great intelligent guy and have the respect of many (except you operate TGP's)
Do you have any idea how much more money you would have made over the past 3-4 years if you and many other's like you didn't give away an abundance of free porn?
Want to see titties pull out your credit card surfer? No Credit Card - bank account, phone billing - oh ... underage - well get off my bandwidth and go look at legal pics of Britney or something
and Shemp to prove my point, you personally can not make earn more than $50 per day from the top spot on your TGP, how many hits does that gallery you sell for $1500 a month get a day?
http://www.sexlist.com/?catid=
If I'm reading correctly your sexlist stats say you've done over 313,261 just today to that page, so someone paying $50 for one of your prime spots may get let's say 30,000 clicks and they send maybe 10,000 clicks to the sponsor
so they have to do 1 in 10,000 (or a little better to be profitable)
am guessing you weren't doing that so selling the spots became a better business model (which I can respest and admire)
Furthermore
Your add says!!!
The New Shemp, an Original TGP. Free Porn for the People!
Why do you tell people porn is free
NO NO NO
NO FUCKING FREE PORN, what are you, up for the porn sainthood?
You got to pay to play
I really hope you are a millionaire a few times over, if not you could have been
and again - nothing personal - only business
and I'd don't care to hear from the TGP peanut gallery but Shemp and sites like his have cost many hundred's of thousands if not millions of dollars and have been one of the primary reasons for the decline in the adult on-line porn industry
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Why is it that so many people claim to have great conversions with TGP traffic... and so many others think that TGP's are the cause of all evil and everything that is wrong with adult? I have always found that to be pretty amusing. There are a pretty big descrepency in opinions and clearly people are still making a lot of money. I never see 100 people crying "thats not possible" when someone says "i am doing 1:500 with this gallery on The Hun"... on GFY. That tells me something.
You cannot put the genie back in the bottle Vick, no matter how much you might wish to. All you can do is out think and outwork the rest of the idiots out there. Anyone that thinks that is too tough... is in the wrong business in my opinion. I see a lot of morons making money today. Just as many morons as there always has been. If anything, there are more.
You cannot stop free content or stop people from using the word "Free". The word "free" is a mainstay of marketing both online and off. It's one of those magic words that grabs people attention that leads to SALES. The market will decide the business models. That is how a free market works. People follow business models that work. Thats how a free market evolves.
Porn hit the web, surfers were ignorant, money was easy and so many people lament about the "good ole days"... rather than understanding that every business evolves and it's up to the businessmen to evolve just as fast or be left behind. Those getting left behind today are complaining that everyone should be working together to turn back the clock as if that was possible. You can't make surfers ignorant and innexperienced again. You can only understand them and improve how you sell to them. They are your market.
Originally posted by JR@Jul 5 2004, 04:01 PM Why is it that so many people claim to have great conversions with TGP traffic... and so many others think that TGP's are the cause of all evil and everything that is wrong with adult? I have always found that to be pretty amusing. There are a pretty big descrepency in opinions and clearly people are still making a lot of money. I never see 100 people crying "thats not possible" when someone says "i am doing 1:500 with this gallery on The Hun"... on GFY. That tells me something.
You cannot put the genie back in the bottle Vick, no matter how much you might wish to. All you can do is out think and outwork the rest of the idiots out there. Anyone that thinks that is too tough... is in the wrong business in my opinion. I see a lot of morons making money today. Just as many morons as there always has been. If anything, there are more.
You cannot stop free content or stop people from using the word "Free". The word "free" is a mainstay of marketing both online and off. It's one of those magic words that grabs people attention that leads to SALES. The market will decide the business models. That is how a free market works. People follow business models that work. Thats how a free market evolves.
Porn hit the web, surfers were ignorant, money was easy and so many people lament about the "good ole days"... rather than understanding that every business evolves and it's up to the businessmen to evolve just as fast or be left behind. Those getting left behind today are complaining that everyone should be working together to turn back the clock as if that was possible. You can't make surfers ignorant and innexperienced again. You can only understand them and improve how you sell to them. They are your market.
If the adult industry had used the same amount on lawyers in 1996-1997 as we do today, then Iīm sure we could have killed the TGP business before it took off, but this was not how we as an industry choosed to deal with it back then, and now in 2004 free porn is here to stay...
However that doesnīt mean that we are doomed into a neverending battle between free porn and paid porn - we need to refocus on our own business model, have TGPs be part of the paid porn business by making them depended on revenue and fresh content from paid porn, and to take more control of the marketing. This is how paid porn will take control of the free porn again - not by the use of lawyers, or politicians, but by the use of $$$ and creative minds.
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
ANY traffic can be converted into money. It's just a matter of whether or not the ROI makes it worth it.
I know a couple of guys from Victoria that have been the top resellers for both Maxcash and ARS, using purchased Hun spots. Of course you also have the people that can't pay their bandwidth bill when they get a Hun listing.
At the end of the day, it just is what it is. There's no one right way to to do this or there would be one program, one link list, one tgp, one billing company, etc.
JR - you're right, the genie doesn't go back into th bottle
so all we do is make the most $ we can hoping for the TGP movement to fall under it's own weight - Also while we move into other more profitable/enjoyable industries
also JR, many bullshit in this business? Who's really going to have the balls to say I lost money on the TGP spots I bought boo-hoo-hoo - think that's what you're really going to hear?
and the $ you're talking abut being made today doesn't compare what what was made in 1997-2001 - you know it and I know it
and I am one of the stupidest companies/webmaster ever by not saving/investing enough during that time to retire - so yes I somewhat deserve a retard tag, never thought the $ would stop rolling in
The vacations, house, cars and clothes, dinners, furnishing, theater and so on and so on were all very nice (many others were rumored to have pissed away their $ on dope or women or what have you, at least I got some substantial things)
I was too fucking stupid to read about, study and understand new market economies, it was all here for me to study, the Gold Rush, the Industrial Revolution, Radio, Movies, TV
So while I will piss on what I perceive to be some of the causes of the decline of revenue generation from the adult on-line industry I know I bought my own share of it as well
Read what I posted before. TGP owners do not earn a fraction of what they possibly could - no one can reasonably or logically dispute that
MOST/MANY TGP's do not depend on Sponsor Programs for the bulk of their income - they could not convert well enough to maintain reasonable profit margins so they went to selling gallery spots (which I must admit is a gr4eat way to monetize) but how long until those buying gallery spots can convert well enough to be profitable (I've expected it to happen sooner than now so ....)
So basically the TGP's really don't have to care about the sponsor or conversions, they have to PT Barnum and wait for the sucker to be born every minute
When that happens TGP's will need a new revenue generation model or they may go under
Truth be told, TGP'S and paysite no longer work together, TGP'S are the actual enemy of the Paysite - more so that P2P networks and Newsgroups
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Originally posted by Vick@Jul 5 2004, 05:39 PM
and the $ you're talking abut being made today doesn't compare what what was made in 1997-2001 - you know it and I know it
-----------------
Truth be told, TGP'S and paysite no longer work together, TGP'S are the actual enemy of the Paysite - more so that P2P networks and Newsgroups
KK said:
"I know a couple of guys from Victoria that have been the top resellers for both Maxcash and ARS, using purchased Hun spots"
sounds like TGP's and paysites work pretty well together to me.
Sykk is doing 1:200 with hun traffic and non-nude sites. Sounds pretty 97'ish to me. In fact MANY people do quite well with TGP traffic while others say right now, today that it is a complete waste of time. Many people do quite well listing the same thing in the same TGP that others claim is a waste of time.
I don't share your optimism that TGP's will go away. I don't think they will. I am also VERY comfortable with the fact that I can reach out with a few paid link spots or banners and reach a few million people looking for what I have to sell. It's my job to always be good at closing the deal and to stay ahead of the curve.
Where are you going to get your traffic when TGP's go away? Everyone is going to do whatever works best and any shift will happen with the industry as a whole. If the new hot thing is creating yahoo groups... in a matter of weeks there will be too many Yahoo groups to make it worth while. Whatever happens in the future and with whatever changes may come, the basic problems will ALWAYS remain the same...
That is that some will adjust, adapt, overcome and effectively compete as people are today with making money with TGP's and many will just quietly fade away complaining that someone, or something else is the problem and the reason for thier failure. It is always your choice as to which of those people you will become.
Quote:
Truth be told, TGP'S and paysite no longer work together, TGP'S are the actual enemy of the Paysite - more so that P2P networks and Newsgroups
They are working quite well for a lot of people. Sykk is a good example. There are countless others.
KK said "I know a couple of guys from Victoria that have been the top resellers for both Maxcash and ARS, using purchased Hun spots"
sounds like TGP's and paysites work pretty well together still.
so are there any counters out there that just count views and clicks? nothing more, no ads, no dialers, no toolbars, no spyware, no sport scores updates. JUST A FUCKING COUNTER?????
Originally posted by Rolo@Jul 5 2004, 07:48 PM If the adult industry had used the same amount on lawyers in 1996-1997 as we do today, then Iīm sure we could have killed the TGP business before it took off, but this was not how we as an industry choosed to deal with it back then, and now in 2004 free porn is here to stay...
However that doesnīt mean that we are doomed into a neverending battle between free porn and paid porn - we need to refocus on our own business model, have TGPs be part of the paid porn business by making them depended on revenue and fresh content from paid porn, and to take more control of the marketing. This is how paid porn will take control of the free porn again - not by the use of lawyers, or politicians, but by the use of $$$ and creative minds.
Best analogy Ive seen in this thread is that TGPs are to the adult world what free programming is to television. A vehicle to sell advertsing.
I can tell you Shemp isnt here to justify or defend the existance of TGPs but rather to hopefully work better together within the industry.
And Ill restate it again...like it or not. TGPs remain one of the last EASY ways of getting any traffic to your programs.
__________________
We are putting the bastards of this world on notice; greed and corruption will always be met with "a voice made of ink and rage."
"Never try and be like anyone else" - Hunter S. Thompson
"The truth is the truth no matter how you try and package a lie" - Shellee Hale
Originally posted by masterp74@Jul 5 2004, 06:21 PM so are there any counters out there that just count views and clicks? nothing more, no ads, no dialers, no toolbars, no spyware, no sport scores updates. JUST A FUCKING COUNTER?????
Well gentlemen we have a very large difference of opinions on TGP's
But the bottom line question will always remain
Would we all make more money if TGP's didn't exist (as well as the glut of free porn)?
No need for long drawn out explanations or justifications
Just a simple yes or no?
and there is much I personally disagree with being posted here and I feel I have given some reasonable examples (and some of the comebacks haven't even scratched the real issues $$$$$$)
Differrent strokes for different folks and so on and son and scoobie doobie doobie
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Originally posted by gonzo@Jul 5 2004, 06:26 PM Best analogy Ive seen in this thread is that TGPs are to the adult world what free programming is to television. A vehicle to sell advertsing.
Yes, and as a advertising vehicle, then they will hopefully evolve into better understanding/balance between free and pay. I think having Shemp and Vick here is good - the debate would be boring without some different perspective
We are currently working on programming features, which will make us better at converting/retaining each unique TGPīs traffic (the demographics can be very different at tgps), however that doesnīt mean that TGPs should stop working/improving their own traffic - making it more focused on buying/consuming.
Some TGPs are good at working with their traffic, however many hurt their traffic by trying to protect surfers from ads, and overfeeding them with hardcore content. Others are just standing still waiting for some input - ex.:
- why is it that TGPs still have rules about pics/videos not being on html, but must be directly linked from the main page of the gallery - sure if you trust your paysite partner or submiter, then it would not hurt the surfer to watch the pic/video on page with ads to the paysite?
- why use the word "free" on the TGPs, when we want people to "pay" - if TGPs owners are right about smart surfers, then surfers already know its free, so why keep reminding them? Its like saying "hey, you are stupid if you pay".
- why list video galleries with several minutes of videos, when 3 * 10 sec is enough for a surfer to get a feel of the content - do we want him to click more galleries on the TGP or go to the paysite, then it wonīt happen if he has already cummed.
- why list galleries with little creativity, which shows ALL to surfers, but leaves little to the imagination (ex. cumshot/moneyshot) - porn is a fantasy, not a animal planet documentary, we do not see hollywood putting their "plots" in the trailers.
- why have a advertising vehicle, where the driver of the vehicle do not communicate with his AND potential advertisers... advertisers might have some constructive feedback based on experience working with other advertising vehicles
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by Vick@Jul 5 2004, 07:23 PM Would we all make more money if TGP's didn't exist (as well as the glut of free porn)?
No need for long drawn out explanations or justifications
Just a simple yes or no?
Yes
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Gonzo amd others told me that this would be an interesting board for me to post at but i have to say with all respect, the arguements against TGPs are pretty much the same ones that were voiced in 1998. What has changed is that the "bad" galleries you mention above, are now provided by the sponsors/paysites.
Why do paysites provide hardcore galleries to affiliates that have been in the business for 10 minutes? Why do they bust their ass and have designers building the "lowly" and "hated TGP gallery?
You guys are smart enough to know that the consumer drives the business, not you. The customer determines who will succeed or fail, not you. You want to "shape" the business to your mold, for your benefit and you want everyone else to conform to what is best for the paysite owner....
I really appreciate the earlier post analyzing my business plan. i really do.
i went through something like this a couple of years ago when the TGP2 movement told me i would be out of business in a couple of months...well damn, guess what...
anyway, im not feeling very good about the negativity towards my way of making money...not really up for a long drawn out battle either, as i have 4000 galleries to review tonite.....trust me, i have nothing to prove to anyone on this board...
Originally posted by Vick@Jul 5 2004, 07:23 PM
Would we all make more money if TGP's didn't exist (as well as the glut of free porn)?
No need for long drawn out explanations or justifications
07-04-2004
Vick 
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