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I always love to listen to the confused porn sheep bleat about their love for conservative thought. The same ideology that seeks their very destruction, try and figure that one out. Its like a Third Reich loving Jew who loves Hitlers policy on the environment. I dont give a fuck what Bush and the rest of his corporate xtian Taliban cabinet think on issues I might even remotely agree with, you want to rid the country of how I make my living? Piss off.
Originally posted by [Labret]@Dec 1 2003, 05:53 PM I always love to listen to the confused porn sheep bleat about their love for conservative thought.
Any examples of "conservative" thought being bleated you can quote? I'm curious as to how they are defining "conservative" thought in academia these days....
Be back after dinner!
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Originally posted by Buff@Dec 1 2003, 04:43 PM
So now it behooves business to increase its costs by paying greater than the market wage for labor.
Brilliant economic theory you have there, Keynes. Any other ignorance you want to share with us?
My theory? I just said what Ford did that flies in the face of what the brilliant porn actor economist Buff claims. Problem with it? Hash it out with Hank.
Why, under the burden of such a brilliant mind, do you insist on working for pennies banging prostitutes? Surely you should be working for Rand er somethin.
I'm not sure which is more idiotic - [labert]'s assertion that there are no "thinking" conservatives or Buffy's $1000 an hour minimum wage statement. Granted, the Anne Coulters of today aren't worthy of sharpening the pencils of a Wm. F. Buckley, but there are just as many - or, more correctly, just as few - thinking conservatives as there are liberals. And sheep bleating is sheep bleating ... whether it's the born again crowd or the perpetual (as opposed to the professional) academics.
Peaches - I heard that. After I have my geritol, I may think of a witty retort, if I can think of one that won't piss off your lovers, Gonzo and Confucy.
I'm from a mixed home - one New Deal Democrat White Trash Baptist and a moderate Republican German Catholic. Not so strangely enough, the majority of the White Trash side of the family has become Republican; the German side is split pretty much down the middle between what Torone would call RINO (McCain style Republicans) and Democrats.
The main thing that casued me to go further left was civil rights.
While the crackers and their fellow travellers like to talk about the 130+ years since the end of slavery, I am old enough to remember folks, many of them veterans of the U.S. military, getting killed for wanting to vote or the right to get food poisoning from a dime store lunch counter. I am old enough to remember terrorists blowing up churches and murdering people with the protection, if not support and cooperation, of a number of state governments, and sometimes even the FBI. I am old enough to remember watching scumbags like Bull Connor send police dogs and fire hoses on school children.
The more I listened to the blatant racism of my grandfather, and the convoluted semilogic of my father (who tried to put a wrapper on his racism so that it didn't sound like grandpop) - the more I began to drift left.
DJ - in the abstract, I tend to agree with you and Marie Antoinette. As a pratical matter, however, it's never worked.
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Dec 1 2003, 09:42 PM DJ - in the abstract, I tend to agree with you and Marie Antoinette. As a pratical matter, however, it's never worked.
Well, I can't say my method has ever really been tried.
However, I would tend to agree with you. The same human nature that makes communism a failure would make my ideal philosophy a failure also. Like most things, what works is somewhere in the middle...
Still waiting for the conservative sheep bleating quotes. As it typical, rhetoric above substance....but then, that's the plan, anyway...
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Still waiting for the conservative sheep bleating quotes. As it typical, rhetoric above substance....but then, that's the plan, anyway...
If I was a smartass, Jim, I'd suggest you look at any post by Torone and a couple of others ... it's often as predictable as the dolls you pull the string to get them to talk. One easy way to tell is the frequency with which the find a way to work Clinton into the conversation.
I don't think conservatives bleat any more than liberals do. Hell, I may get kicked out of the Liberal's club just for admitting that liberals are just as likely to bleat as conservatives are.
Last edited by PornoDoggy at Dec 1 2003, 10:52 PM
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Of course how you are raised and what your parents' political affiliations are is going to be a huge factor, but I think the biggest factor in determining someone's political beliefs is experience.
In my experience, sitting in a class talking about the wonders of welfare, free health care, and poor people is quite different than being in the trenches actually counseling those people from week to week and seeing how they do their damndest to use and abuse the system.
Being "poor" and turning around one day to find that you're "comfortable" is an eye-opener as well, especially when you take a look at your check and see how much of it is being ripped away from you to pay for those same system abusers you were counseling a couple of years before.
Experience is what you gain as you grow older, which is why *I* think that most people grow more conservative as they grow older. They lose the ideallic dream of how good society could be "if only"... and experience the truth of how the majority of people are lazy and will cheat at the slightest opportunity, exploit something until it's gone all just for a handout that they don't have to work for.
You start seeing how the people busting their asses day in and day out are being punished, while the people sitting back collecting your tax dollars that you worked for are being rewarded more and more for their refusal to get off of their duffs and take responsibility for themselves.
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Originally posted by Carrie@Dec 2 2003, 12:27 AM Of course how you are raised and what your parents' political affiliations are is going to be a huge factor, but I think the biggest factor in determining someone's political beliefs is experience.
In my experience, sitting in a class talking about the wonders of welfare, free health care, and poor people is quite different than being in the trenches actually counseling those people from week to week and seeing how they do their damndest to use and abuse the system.
Being "poor" and turning around one day to find that you're "comfortable" is an eye-opener as well, especially when you take a look at your check and see how much of it is being ripped away from you to pay for those same system abusers you were counseling a couple of years before.
Experience is what you gain as you grow older, which is why *I* think that most people grow more conservative as they grow older. They lose the ideallic dream of how good society could be "if only"... and experience the truth of how the majority of people are lazy and will cheat at the slightest opportunity, exploit something until it's gone all just for a handout that they don't have to work for.
You start seeing how the people busting their asses day in and day out are being punished, while the people sitting back collecting your tax dollars that you worked for are being rewarded more and more for their refusal to get off of their duffs and take responsibility for themselves.
Have you been working in different trenches than I have?
While I know there is fraud in the system, I've personally worked with a lot of people who've ran into hard times, I'm met a LOT who simply need a little help getting back on their feet and are trying their damnedest to do it...I've also had to deal with a lot of people with various mental disorders (not including myself ;-)) and these are the people who are forgotten when we talk about welfare and medical handouts...for every "able bodied" person mooching off the system, I can find equal numbers or even more who suffer from various mental problems...
While I don't believe in cradle to grave handouts, I see no societal problem with helping our less fortunate..many many of whom just need a little help once in awhile, especially if they are faced with mental problems which have a lot to do with things like the ability to hold a job or even a conversation.
Having spent a lot of time helping out in homeless shelters, I've come across people who've lost their homes and have problems getting back on their feet (hard to get a job without a phone and an address).
It's easy to say "well, they made a choice, now live with it" but should someone lose thier whole life over a mistake? Once beyond that point, they might just need a simple handup and are more than happy to work for it.
Isn't it ironic than Ronald Reagen cut spending on mental health programs and now suffers from alzheimers?
as for my nurturing, my mother isn't very politcal at all but is pretty mucha liberal, help your fello man type of person and my father went into Vietnam a red, white and blue conservative loe it or leave it type guy and came out a very changed man and very liberal but the last decade or so hasn't really voted along any party line...
Originally posted by Diamond Jim@Dec 1 2003, 01:56 PM Is it the parents or other authority figures? The people you hang around? The TV programs you watch? A book you read?
How can 2 intelligent people look at the same circumstance and come to such divergent views on cause and effect? How do they see such different realities?
Blows me away...
It's a matter of intelligence and education. Someone further down tried to make the point that most universities are liberal; therefore Liberals are better educated. Sorry, that's NOT education, it's indoctrination...most of the people coming out of those places cannot read, write, or spell above jr. high school levels.
Think about the way Libs want to do things...read up enough to see what their agenda is. I have. I also was watching when Kruschev was shouting, "We'll bury you!". The USSR is dead; but the philosophy lives on...China, Viet Nam, France, Berkely, the DNC, etc.
My point is that Conservatives look at things logically; and Libs look emotionally. The aforementioned philosophy fits their way of doing things to a "T". Problem is, countries trying it are doomed. It sounds great; but sooner or later, there is no one left to pay the bills. Then, if the country can't coerce money out of other countries, the same thing happens that happened to the USSR.
It's a matter of intelligence and education. Someone further down tried to make the point that most universities are liberal; therefore Liberals are better educated. Sorry, that's NOT education, it's indoctrination...most of the people coming out of those places cannot read, write, or spell above jr. high school levels.
Jesus, what a load of horse shit. What never fails to amaze me is those of you who have never even attended any secondary education like to incessantly comment about what it is, what it requires, and what it produces.
Quote:
Think about the way Libs want to do things...read up enough to see what their agenda is. I have. I also was watching when Kruschev was shouting, "We'll bury you!". The USSR is dead; but the philosophy lives on...China, Viet Nam, France, Berkely, the DNC, etc.
France, Berkely, and the DNC are "communist"? Holy shit, turn off Fox news for a day.
Quote:
My point is that Conservatives look at things logically; and Libs look emotionally. The aforementioned philosophy fits their way of doing things to a "T". Problem is, countries trying it are doomed. It sounds great; but sooner or later, there is no one left to pay the bills. Then, if the country can't coerce money out of other countries, the same thing happens that happened to the USSR.
Ahh yes, the icing on your mongoloid cupcake... "conservatives look at things logically". Hillbilly logic perhaps. Wrong, conservatives are largerly uneducated reactionary idealogues. Conservatives love the silver bullet approach to problem solving. I am neck deep in studying the penal harm movement right now, and it is a glowing example of "conservative logic". And as a result, we now incarcerate more of our own citizens than any other nation in the world. California alone incarcerates more people than all of Europe's prisons combined. We now incarcerate more people per 100k of population than the Soviet Union did. And we liberated the people of Iraq? But I digress. Conservatives love mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, penal harm, elimination of parole, etc etc. And as a result the land of the free now holds the dubious position of kings of global incarceration. That is conservative logic in action.
You will try and argue that the war on porn by Ashcroft is a result of a "logical" conclusion? Please do, I want to hear it.
Quote:
Problem is, countries trying it are doomed
Humor me and show me the countries that have attempted true communism as Marx outlined. There are no true communist countries, never have been. Typical reactionary hillbilly rhetoric. People attempting communism were viewed as such a threat to the United States that we spent the better part of the 20th century attempting to crush it wherever it reared its ugly ugly head. Sorta kinda hard to flourish with the United States trying to kick your ass wherever the people rise up. Why did the US feel communism was such a threat? Put down the Coulter and step away from the tv slowly. I am amazed any country that deviates from true unfettered American style capitalism manages to feed its people.
How do all these socialist countries around the world do it? After all, socialism is merely the intermediate between communism and capitalism.
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Dec 2 2003, 06:25 AM We now incarcerate more people per 100k of population than the Soviet Union ever did.
***********************************
are you naive or just poorly educated???
You have NO IDEA what you are talking about, son.
Yeah, my apologies, I will make sure and tell my professor, who has spent the last 40 years working in corrections and developing correctional policy for the federal government, that his stats are indeed.... wrong.
Originally posted by [Labret]@Dec 2 2003, 10:28 AM Yeah, my apologies, I will make sure and tell my professor, who has spent the last 40 years working in corrections and developing correctional policy for the federal government, that his stats are indeed.... wrong.
And you think WE'RE the sheep?
While I do agree with you that we have too many people sitting in jail who have committed victimless crimes, to believe every thing ANYONE tells you isn't very smart.
Originally posted by [Labret]@Dec 2 2003, 06:21 AM Conservatives love mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, penal harm, elimination of parole, etc etc. And as a result the land of the free now holds the dubious position of kings of global incarceration. That is conservative logic in action.
I would love to hear your solution.
What do you do with people who are repeat offenders, especially for violent crimes?
or do you eat from the palm of the hand of stas giving you by "academia"?
Again, I am not quite sure what you uneducated folk think happens when you walk through those doors, but as the article you posted on neocon think tanks so eloquently stated, academia has checks and balances. You dont become a phd and a leader in your field by just making shit up. The entire process is nothing but defending yourself from nonstop attacks on your theories or arguments. Trust me my dearest Serge, if someone tries to spit out bullshit statistics or crackpot science, someone will be there to ram it up their ass, THAT is what academia is in a nutshell. A bunch of nerds doing their best to discredit and destroy someone elses lifes work. Checks and balances.
So in light of that, do I accept the findings of someone who has spent the better part of his life fighting his way to the top of the academic food chain on some statistics as trivial as rates of Soviet imprisonment per 100k of population? Yeah, I do. Like I said, if he was lying, someone would be there to point it out, and they wouldnt do it nicely.
This reminds me of the time Buff claimed to have destroyed Noam Chomsky in an email debate, god thats funny.
Hey Labret, I find some of the things you post interesting, although I am certain we probably disagree on much.
I am curious, though... You spoke about leaving the US because of the consumer indoctrination (among others I suppose) and the course the country is on.
Originally posted by [Labret]@Dec 2 2003, 11:01 AM Your post is answered above.
If you think for one minute that "facts" aren't created in academia, you're kidding yourself. My brother just left his post doctorate "position" (I put that in quotes because it only paid $35K a year and HE was responsible for the almost 100 hours he put into filling out the paperwork for his grant request which paid that $35K) at Duke in genetics because of what he saw once he reached the "lofty levels". And he was dealing with MEDICAL studies which were fudged. If you think the same can't be done by a teacher dealing with prison populations, you truly aren't as smart as you think you are. Again, I would never trust ONE PERSON as a source for any information.
BTW, no, I don't have a college degree (went two years but then got married and became a housewife) but I'm the ONLY one in my family for 4 generations who doesn't have a degree and most have masters and/or PhD's. I've been around "educated" people all my life and I can assure you, there's a lot to be said for plain common sense and not everyone who's formally educated, has it.
Originally posted by [Labret]@Dec 2 2003, 09:57 AM
Quote:
or do you eat from the palm of the hand of stas giving you by "academia"?
Again, I am not quite sure what you uneducated folk think happens when you walk through those doors, but as the article you posted on neocon think tanks so eloquently stated, academia has checks and balances. You dont become a phd and a leader in your field by just making shit up. The entire process is nothing but defending yourself from nonstop attacks on your theories or arguments. Trust me my dearest Serge, if someone tries to spit out bullshit statistics or crackpot science, someone will be there to ram it up their ass, THAT is what academia is in a nutshell. A bunch of nerds doing their best to discredit and destroy someone elses lifes work. Checks and balances.
So in light of that, do I accept the findings of someone who has spent the better part of his life fighting his way to the top of the academic food chain on some statistics as trivial as rates of Soviet imprisonment per 100k of population? Yeah, I do. Like I said, if he was lying, someone would be there to point it out, and they wouldnt do it nicely.
This reminds me of the time Buff claimed to have destroyed Noam Chomsky in an email debate, god thats funny.
so, IOW, you just take without questioning ANYTHING delivered to you on the platter...
and you call yourself "rebe"? Independent Thinker?
Labret, THINK of what you are posting, look at the mirror and come to the logical conclusion
;l-)))
you just worship the different Gods,
you are a "true beleiver" and you have no questioning bone in your body
;_)))
Originally posted by [Labret]@Dec 2 2003, 09:57 AM
Quote:
or do you eat from the palm of the hand of stas giving you by "academia"?
Again, I am not quite sure what you uneducated folk think happens when you walk through those doors, but as the article you posted on neocon think tanks so eloquently stated, academia has checks and balances. You dont become a phd and a leader in your field by just making shit up. The entire process is nothing but defending yourself from nonstop attacks on your theories or arguments. Trust me my dearest Serge, if someone tries to spit out bullshit statistics or crackpot science, someone will be there to ram it up their ass, THAT is what academia is in a nutshell. A bunch of nerds doing their best to discredit and destroy someone elses lifes work. Checks and balances.
If you accepted it, even with 40 years studies credit to his work
Is it possible that many others have?
While there is much critical thinking involved how much "gladhanding and backslapping" may go on? Every coin has 3 sides
and one of my favorite sayings to quote
"Lies, damn lies and statistics"
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If you think for one minute that "facts" aren't created in academia, you're kidding yourself. My brother just left his post doctorate "position" (I put that in quotes because it only paid $35K a year and HE was responsible for the almost 100 hours he put into filling out the paperwork for his grant request which paid that $35K) at Duke in genetics because of what he saw once he reached the "lofty levels". And he was dealing with MEDICAL studies which were fudged. If you think the same can't be done by a teacher dealing with prison populations, you truly aren't as smart as you think you are. Again, I would never trust ONE PERSON as a source for any information.
BTW, no, I don't have a college degree (went two years but then got married and became a housewife) but I'm the ONLY one in my family for 4 generations who doesn't have a degree and most have masters and/or PhD's. I've been around "educated" people all my life and I can assure you, there's a lot to be said for plain common sense and not everyone who's formally educated, has it.
God its like beating my head against a fucking wall. Listen, we are all well aware how statistics are manipulated and created, in fact, we are required to take courses in statistics and methods of social research in order to learn to how to deal with such matters. Trust me, I am sure my knowledge of means of gathering and manipulating data sets is far above average and as a result I know which statistics I can accept and which ones I should be suspect.
I will say this one more time. Checks and fucking balances. I know you probably like to think its just a bunch of yes men standing around, circle jerking each other and making shit up without a care in the world, but your accusation that "facts" are just "created" in academia is so utterly absurd that I almost want to disregard your post and not respond. Evidently nothing I have said has sunk in. Academia works in such a way that one CANNOT just make shit up.
For example, I am working on my masters (one step before phd). In May, god willing, I will be standing before 3 phds who have all read my thesis. They are going to proceed to tear me a new asshole if they see any problem at all, and they will force me to defend every single statement I make in my thesis. If I was dumb enough to make something up, it will be caught, and it will destroy me academically.
Just look at academia as a big message board of pissers. Would anyone on here be allowed to make something up and not get called on it by someone else on here? Very very doubtful.
Trust me, I am sure my knowledge of means of gathering and manipulating data sets is far above average and as a result I know which statistics I can accept and which ones I should be suspect.
************************************************** *
Darling, I don't trust you.
You haven't passed the test to Professor Lukin,
Leningrad Polytechnical Institute,
the BIGGEST ANTISEMITE ON THE FACULTY,
who had hard on for me since the day one.
I went thru it 3 times before I passed,
you do NOT know statistics better than me, and I still rememebr his name 29 years post factum.
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Dec 2 2003, 07:36 AM Trust me, I am sure my knowledge of means of gathering and manipulating data sets is far above average and as a result I know which statistics I can accept and which ones I should be suspect.
************************************************** *
Darling, I don't trust you.
You haven't passed the test to Professor Lukin,
Leningrad Polytechnical Institute,
the BIGGEST ANTISEMITE ON THE FACULTY,
who had hard on for me since the day one.
I went thru it 3 times before I passed,
you do NOT know statistics better than me, and I still rememebr his name 29 years post factum.
And we should trust Serge on stats? Fuck you, I sent clicks to your programs. Everyone knows better.
Academia works in such a way that one CANNOT just make shit up.
************************************************** ********
My cousin is a Professor of the math in Fortaleze, Brazil
Sorbone, France
(do search for Lev Birbrair on the net)
and do you want me to tell you and open your eyes about Academia Politics and how that world REALLY works???
You are THE LAST PERSON I expected to be being NAIVE.
Academia CANNOT just make shit up as much as...
Government, President, CIA, FBI, etc, etc, etc...
I am honestly SORRY if I burst the babble of your illusions...
;-(((
Originally posted by wig@Dec 2 2003, 07:39 AM Labret,
Are you going to avoid my question??
Really, I am curious what country you would choose to move to?
Fuck me, its already been answered.
Dont know. I leave sometime this summer. Planning on starting in Ireland and working my way east and south. Have an acquaintance that is planning a Russia expedition shortly so I plan on hopefully checking that out as well. What Forest says about the Ukraine I find very interesting.
Originally posted by [Labret]@Dec 2 2003, 11:33 AM For example, I am working on my masters (one step before phd). In May, god willing, I will be standing before 3 phds who have all read my thesis. They are going to proceed to tear me a new asshole if they see any problem at all, and they will force me to defend every single statement I make in my thesis. If I was dumb enough to make something up, it will be caught, and it will destroy me academically.
LOL!! When my brother did his dissertation for his doctorate, he was sweating bullets before he presented it. He basically disappeared for 3 months to write it. He said he went before whatever it is you go before (this was several years ago, I forget what it's called. If you're really interested, I can dig through old emails and tell you), they asked him just a couple of questions, and that was it! :P He was amazed at how little care they seemed to pay attention to it. This was at the University of Minnesota, not Duke, BTW.
Obviously not everything which is taught in schools (any school) is falsified, fudged, created etc. I never said that. But there ARE professors who will spew incorrect information, usually because they themselves think it's 100% correct. Even my own son challenged a professor in college and the professor was proven wrong - it happens.
Academia politics is a dirty business...
when tenure is at stake,
they are affraid blowing the "olygarchy",
'cuz the secret ballot for the next opening might be AGAINST YOU.
Welcome to the REAL Academia world, brought to you from the INSIDE.
if you need Irwin Shaw's point a view and not my cousin's,
read his book on the subject,
what you don't know about Academia won't hurt you
;-))
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Dec 2 2003, 07:57 AM Labret, for YOUR sake,
live in your world.
Academia politics is a dirty business...
when tenure is at stake,
they are affraid blowing the "olygarchy",
'cuz the secret ballot for the next opening might be AGAINST YOU.
Welcome to the REAL Academia world, brought to you from the INSIDE.
if you need Irwin Shaw's point a view and not my cousin's,
read his book on the subject,
what you don't know about Academia won't hurt you
;-))
it will ONLY fuck up your life
;-)))
Pointless. I am not pursuing a career in academia, I have zero interest in helping or educating others en mass. I play the academia game for my own personal enjoyment and fulfillment.
And my comment was edited awhile ago slappy. Remember, I post and then edit. And even then, it was only edited due to uncertainty, not because I felt the statement was false.
Show Labret his mistakes and be responcible for him failing his tests to Academia who compiled wrong
or leave him as is, with no clue, and pass the test to Professor with no clue with flying colors?
12-01-2003
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