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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Dec 1 2003, 12:31 AM
And Serge ... no offense, but your analysis of what causes my concern couldn't be further off base. I don't relate this to porn at all. I oppose the erosion of civil rights, pure and simple. I don't believe that denying this individual the same rights as any other alleged criminal is going to materially impact whether New York or L.A. becomes a target.
and I say that the security of the country prevails over his right...
Otherwise, Serge could be snatched up by the revenuers for his wine collection - that was a "done deal" once, too.
*************************************************
they gonna get KADOHAS!
I drink it and ONLY have few cases of Coppolla 2001 Merlot at $12 per bottle...hardly worth a trouble
;-)))
We have gone from a country that spent over 30 years as the lead critic in rallying about human rights violations in other countries, to becoming a country that commits them in ours. I find nothing to be proud about in this.
"A U.S. citizen accused of plotting to explode a radiological "dirty bomb" in the United States must be granted access to an attorney to challenge his detention as an enemy combatant, a federal judge in New York ruled yesterday. "
That information seems to be a bit outdated. The Gov't appealed that lower court's decision.
Apparently, as of 11/23/2003 he still hadn't had access to a lawyer, judge or his family.
"Before Padilla could see a lawyer, he was declared an enemy combatant and shipped off to a brig in South Carolina where he has been held in solitary ever since - with no access to a lawyer, a judge or his family. "
Originally posted by Dravyk@Nov 30 2003, 09:44 PM We have gone from a country that spent over 30 years as the lead critic in rallying about human rights violations in other countries, to becoming a country that commits them in ours. I find nothing to be proud about in this.
You mean as embarrassing as when the US was voted out of the UN Commission on Human Rights?
"Before Padilla could see a lawyer, he was declared an enemy combatant and shipped off to a brig in South Carolina where he has been held in solitary ever since - with no access to a lawyer, a judge or his family. "
..and my heart bleeds for him.
KC, what should I do to wind your biological clock?
When you have your own family to worry about, you'll have less worries about dirty bomb terrorists...
and between us boys:
is Bush responcible for no terror acts since 9/11 on American siol or Thomas Jefferson and the entire judicial system?
Originally posted by KC@Dec 1 2003, 12:46 AM Before Padilla could see a lawyer, he was declared an enemy combatant and shipped off to a brig in South Carolina where he has been held in solitary ever since - with no access to a lawyer, a judge or his family.
And the govt is doing this, despite the bad publicity and understandable (but predictable) criticism of the administration....because...
He has bad breath?
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Originally posted by Diamond Jim@Nov 30 2003, 09:50 PM
And the govt is doing this, despite the bad publicity and understandable (but predictable) criticism of the administration....because...
and the reason we have political system today as we have is because Founding Fathers didn't beleive that common folk knows what's good for him.
Let common folk elect the representative and representative is the one whose voice is heard.
Ancient Greece had a true Democracy. Majority rules.
did it do much good to them? nope...Rome got them
some diplomats said they believed the Bush administration's opposition to the Kyoto climate change treaty as well as its insistence on a missile defense contributed to the loss
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which was VERY logical assumption as all those reasons have as much in common with human rights as
throwing the dog who farted out of the room into the fresh air while everybody in the room continue to inhale fart...
Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Dec 1 2003, 12:55 AM-->
QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Dec 1 2003, 12:55 AM)
Quote:
Originally posted by -Diamond Jim@Dec 1 2003, 12:50 AM
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Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Dec 1 2003, 01:02 AM which was VERY logical assumption as all those reasons have as much in common with human rights as
throwing the dog who farted out of the room into the fresh air while everybody in the room continue to inhale fart...
Point taken. But you miss mine. Bush has been saying "fuck you" to the world since he was in office. That might sound like a good John Wayne attitude at first, but that's not how the "world game" is played.
He causes people who hate us to hate us more, people who work with us to not work with us (cause he won't work with them), and people who are our allies to even back away.
He feels that cause Daddy Bush was called a wimp, he has to be a global bully. Problem is, he's trying that with American citizens now.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And faster in the hands of imbeciles.
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Dec 1 2003, 01:04 AM
Nice try - actually, that's a lie, it's pretty pathetic. I didn't say a thing about Gallup. I don't want to be ruled by Gallup.
I prefer the Constitution of the United States. As you so ineptly avoided, my point was that the same folks who are assuring us that this guy is a terrorist are the ones who told us about Saddam's vast stash of weapons.
pretty pathetic is your state of mind..
you don't beleive your own government and scared of it,
and I enjoy it's handy work.
Originally posted by Dravyk@Dec 1 2003, 01:08 AM
Point taken. But you miss mine. Bush has been saying "fuck you" to the world since he was in office. That might sound like a good John Wayne attitude at first, but that's now how the "world game" is played.
He causes people who hate us to hate us more, people who work with us to not work with us (cause he won't work with them), and people who are our allies to even back away.
He feels that cause Daddy Bush was called a wimp, he has to be a global bully. Problem is, he's trying that with American citizens now.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And faster in the hands of imbeciles.
so? I do the same thing on GFY Bush does with the World.
And where are the smart GFYers now?
At Oprano...
Fuck the World....
America First
;-))))
sorry, alies, we love you, and we'll never ban you
;-0)))
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Dec 1 2003, 01:04 AM As you so ineptly avoided, my point was that the same folks who are assuring us that this guy is a terrorist are the ones who told us about Saddam's vast stash of weapons.
And the same people now giggling that no WMD were found are the same people that were insisting they would be found EVEN IF THE U.S. HAD TO PLANT THEM....
But the evil Bush administration didn't do that, either...
Paranoia must be fun....
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Originally posted by KC@Dec 1 2003, 01:17 AM Oral Hygiene is very important.
HA! It's been cleared up that the Bush administration is doing this because he's of Mexican descent. In addition, they love the bad publicity it brings to their doings and the understandable complaints and concerns that people like KC will have....
It COULDN'T be legitimate National Security issues.....it just COULDN'T....
After all....it's Bush!
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Originally posted by Diamond Jim@Dec 1 2003, 01:22 AM It COULDN'T be legitimate National Security issues.....it just COULDN'T....
After all....it's Bush!
Your profound faith in believing everything the government spoon feeds you is most refreshing, DJ. Naive, but refreshing.
Originally posted by Dravyk+Dec 1 2003, 01:25 AM-->
QUOTE (Dravyk @ Dec 1 2003, 01:25 AM)
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Originally posted by KC@Dec 1 2003, 01:32 AM If they couldn't get enough juicy intel out of the guy after a year and a half without cousel, then they really suck.
A year and a half he's had time to heal all of his broken limbs TWICE!!!
I say put him in a room with Confucy....
If he gets out sane...send him back to Mexico...
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Originally posted by KC@Dec 1 2003, 01:36 AM "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be."
"[The People] are the ultimate, guardians of their own liberty."
Great quotes!
And I take them to mean we should be vigilant in locking up terrorists, protect our National Security, and not let ignorance about people's freedom affect our liberty...
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Originally posted by Dravyk@Dec 1 2003, 01:40 AM Has our government ever lied to us before that we later found out about? Where they considered wrong for having done so? Do governments in general lie and do this same thing?
... I could go on, but just the few mentioned give me a healthy case of suspicion and more than a reasonable doubt. Time will tell.
C'mon, Dravyk....who are you talking to? I despise government FAR more than you and would bet my posting record reflects same... h34r:
The government lies all the time. That is not the question....
However, goverment lies for a PURPOSE....good or bad....
What purpose do they have for keeping this individual without due process? What are they gaining? What are they receiving in exchange for the heat of keeping a US citizen without council or trial?
We can believe they have a very good reason for doing this....and ONLY to this guy (well...maybe a couple others)...
Or we can believe it's because Mexican-Hating Space Aliens have taken over the White House and are keeping him until he reveals the Taco Bell secret sauce recipe...
If you're gonna be paranoid, why limit yourself?
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One hundred and fifty years ago, the Supreme Court emphatically rejected the notion that due process safeguards could be ignored in the midst of a national emergency. To the contrary, it held that an American citizen arrested during the Civil War for aiding the enemy had a right to be tried in the civilian courts, so long as those courts were open and functioning. See Ex parte Milligan, 71 U.S. (4Wall.) 2 (1866). The Court’s language and logic are just as pertinent today.
Quote:
The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people,
equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection
all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances. No
doctrine, involving more pernicious consequences, was ever invented by
the wit of man than that any of its provisions can be suspended during
any of the great exigencies of government. Such a doctrine leads
directly to anarchy or despotism, but the theory of necessity on which it
is based is false; for the government, within the Constitution, has all the
powers granted to it, which are necessary to preserve its existence.
The government lies all the time. That is not the question....
However, goverment lies for a PURPOSE....good or bad....
Ok, my friend, now who do YOU think you're talking to?
I didn't know we were debating whether the government thinks it has a reason, duh! Everybody has a reason. A beneficial one, a manevolent one, a delusion one. Insane people and sane people alike have reasons and so do governments -- constantly.
I thought the discussion was one was it a justifiable reason and, whatever the answer to that was yes or no, was it one that it should supercede our laws and our liberties?
As for paranoia, sorry, I don't do that. Enough REAL shit to be genuinely scared of in this life, thank you.
Originally posted by KC@Dec 1 2003, 02:20 AM
I was wondering if you were taking that position just to disagree. Thanks for verifying it!!
Try to spin this T. Jefferson quote:
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."
@#$%$#^& Liberals don't know or understand the difference between criminals and POW's!
Personally, I think he should be shot as a spy.
Nice try, Comrade; but no cigar...
Oh, and no use quoting things like Jefferson or the Federalist Papers, or the Declaration Of Independence. Important, they are; in the Constitution, they are NOT.
Serge, my statements here have nothing to do with porn and everything to do with my life in the future and my childrens' lives.
I keep bringing it down to adult biz analogies because that's the one thing we all have in common and as such everyone should easily understand those analogies.
DJ, you're trusting that the gov't knows better than we do with your "they MUST have a good reason" theory. I'm sure Matrix thinks they had a good reason to sell us all out too, but that doesn't mean it really *was* a good reason or it was the right thing to do - and their "reason" is certainly not good enough to violate our privacy.
I'm sure Janet Reno thought she had a "good enough reason" as well when she gave the order to storm Waco and slaughter children.
Every day thousands of men and women think they've got a "good enough reason" to steal from their employers...
I don't think that the gov't knows better than I do. Hell, just look at how they take my money and spend it every year.
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