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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Nov 30 2003, 09:55 PM-->| QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Nov 30 2003, 09:55 PM) |
Quote:
Originally posted by -KC@Nov 30 2003, 09:52 PM
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11-30-2003
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#53
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Eternal Newbie
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I don't care if this guy murdered 30 people with his two bare hands - he has a right to a lawyer and a right to go to trial to be tried.
Then again I also think that sticking a naked convicted murderer or rapist in a room with the victim's family and friends should not be considered "cruel and unusual punishment", so my opinion may not mean much.
I have a feeling that if someone deemed that your websites were a means of transmitting secret terrorist messages and threw you in a cell for more than 24 hours, you'd be screaming about your rights rather than semantics and the Patriot Act.
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11-30-2003
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#54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Nov 30 2003, 09:57 PM-->| QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Nov 30 2003, 09:57 PM) |
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11-30-2003
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#55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 30 2003, 09:58 PM
I don't care if this guy murdered 30 people with his two bare hands - he has a right to a lawyer and a right to go to trial to be tried.
Then again I also think that sticking a naked convicted murderer or rapist in a room with the victim's family and friends should not be considered "cruel and unusual punishment", so my opinion may not mean much.
I have a feeling that if someone deemed that your websites were a means of transmitting secret terrorist messages and threw you in a cell for more than 24 hours, you'd be screaming about your rights rather than semantics and the Patriot Act.
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Uhhh ...
wow.
Are we allowed to agree on something? 
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11-30-2003
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#56
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC@Nov 30 2003, 09:57 PM
Hahaha..
I love the Godfather references. 
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and talking about pledges..
Luca Brasi: "Don Corleone, I am honored and grateful that you have invited me to your daughter... 's wedding... on the day of your daughter's wedding. And I hope their first child will be a masculine child. I pledge me ever-ending allegiance to your daughter's bridal purse."
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11-30-2003
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#57
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Prostate Examiner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 30 2003, 09:58 PM
I have a feeling that if someone deemed that your websites were a means of transmitting secret terrorist messages and threw you in a cell for more than 24 hours, you'd be screaming about your rights rather than semantics and the Patriot Act.
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Carrie, neither MikeAI nor me care about that...
1) MikeAI misspells so bad, no terrorist would ever understand him
2) My English/spelling is even worse than his!
Oprano is SAFE, you all worried for NOTHING
;-)))
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11-30-2003
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#58
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Serge your typos could be taken for secret code 
PD - Of course! Non-complex friendships would be boring :P
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11-30-2003
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#59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 30 2003, 10:07 PM
Serge your typos could be taken for secret code
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not after I gave the military intelligence which intervied me before my pledge and becoming the citizen,
everything I knew about Krasnoyarsk II which you won't find on ANY maps,
which doesn't prevent them from manufacturing nuclear weapons there.
hey, KC, what else have YOU done for this country, besides writing the letter to your elected official?
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11-30-2003
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#60
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I feel safer with him in prison..
ask me again in another 18 months..
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11-30-2003
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#61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Nov 30 2003, 10:10 PM-->| QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Nov 30 2003, 10:10 PM) | |
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11-30-2003
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#62
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Prostate Examiner
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC+Nov 30 2003, 10:22 PM-->| QUOTE (KC @ Nov 30 2003, 10:22 PM) |
Quote:
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Nov 30 2003, 10:10 PM
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11-30-2003
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#63
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Quote:
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Nov 30 2003, 08:40 PM
Spoken like a good German, JR
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PD, it never ceases to amaze me that you in the American Left cry out about how all our rights are being trampled, and then in the next breath demand government snatch 100% of the income of anyone making more than $10/hr. It's the most blantant hypocrisy human beings have ever been guilty of.
Tell me how you can have your freedom if you don't even own that which you are paid for your labor?
Last edited by Buff at Nov 30 2003, 09:34 PM
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11-30-2003
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#64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Nov 30 2003, 10:28 PM-->| QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Nov 30 2003, 10:28 PM) |
Quote:
Originally posted by -KC@Nov 30 2003, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Nov 30 2003, 10:10 PM
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11-30-2003
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#65
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Quote:
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Nov 30 2003, 06:55 PM
Not a facist remark at all - I would have used sheep instead, but [some twit] has used the word far too often lately.
With regard to your comment about the 60s being over. There are more than a few people who only regret that the illegal violations of civil rights of hundreds of thousands of Americans were made public and that they were discontinued. There are people ON THIS BOARD - who reflect the feeling of at least some within the administration - that a large portion of the American people who disagree with their political philosophy are in fact traitors to their country.
I wouldn't trust Teddy Kennedy and Hillary Clinton with the powers we've given Bush and Ashcroft. Unlike many of the partisans around here, I wouldn't feel any different about it if they were the ones who held those powers.
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Thats all fine. You have an opinion. I have an opinion. Everyone has an opinion. They are different opinions. You are acting as if there is a right opinion. There isn't on this issue as far as i believe. There are only degrees of concern. Your concerns are different than mine or at the very least, you have placed some concerns over others.
Why does it have to be any more complicated or deep than that? Why would you not respect the opinions of others that are fine with The Patriot Act? If they agree with you, presumably they are not "sheep" or Nazis... but rather on the "right side of the issue". That does not sound like a free world to me.
Last edited by JR at Nov 30 2003, 07:36 PM
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11-30-2003
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#66
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Prostate Examiner
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC+Nov 30 2003, 10:34 PM-->| QUOTE (KC @ Nov 30 2003, 10:34 PM) |
Quote:
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Nov 30 2003, 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by -KC@Nov 30 2003, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Nov 30 2003, 10:10 PM
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11-30-2003
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#67
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Cramming 3 people in a Room to Attend Show
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Quote:
Originally posted by JR+Nov 30 2003, 10:35 PM-->| QUOTE (JR @ Nov 30 2003, 10:35 PM) |
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11-30-2003
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#68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Nov 30 2003, 10:41 PM-->| QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Nov 30 2003, 10:41 PM) |
Quote:
Originally posted by -KC@Nov 30 2003, 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Nov 30 2003, 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by -KC@Nov 30 2003, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Nov 30 2003, 10:10 PM
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11-30-2003
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#69
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Prostate Examiner
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC@Nov 30 2003, 10:57 PM
At least he got a trial.
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..and you think this one is gonna get away?
He sings like cannery and the ONLY people interested in him being seen by lawyers, shmoyers
are terrorists.
They have vested interest, you don't, despite all the rethorics
;_))
Let him suffer and don't lose your sleep over
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11-30-2003
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#70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Nov 30 2003, 11:02 PM-->| QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Nov 30 2003, 11:02 PM) |
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11-30-2003
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#71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Nov 30 2003, 11:02 PM-->| QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Nov 30 2003, 11:02 PM) | |
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11-30-2003
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#72
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"When the Government fears the people, the people live in FREEDOM, but when the People fear the Government, the People live in Tyranny”.
- Thomas Jefferson
was Tom Hagen...he was a Peace Time Consiglieri
;-))))
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11-30-2003
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#73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Nov 30 2003, 11:12 PM
"When the Government fears the people, the people live in FREEDOM, but when the People fear the Government, the People live in Tyranny”.
- Thomas Jefferson
was Tom Hagen...he was a Peace Time Consiglieri
;-))))
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I slightly misquoted Thomas Jefferson..
"When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
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11-30-2003
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#74
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Prostate Examiner
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC+Nov 30 2003, 11:18 PM-->| QUOTE (KC @ Nov 30 2003, 11:18 PM) | |
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11-30-2003
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#75
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The Godfather is a great piece of art. Although it's fiction.
Thomas Jefferson was real.
Here are some more of his quotes. He was able to see a lot further than just 10 years.
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."
"I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet devised by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution".
Here are a lot more:
http://quotes.telemanage.ca/quotes.nsf/Quo...homas+Jefferson
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11-30-2003
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#76
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Eternal Newbie
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I'm all for "breaking the spine" of the terrorists, BUT... (there's always a but)...
If they will do this to this man, an American citizen,
then they will do it to me. And you.
And just for the record, the Patriot Act scares the ever-living shit out of me. It gives the gov't FAR too much power.
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11-30-2003
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#77
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 30 2003, 08:32 PM
I'm all for "breaking the spine" of the terrorists, BUT... (there's always a but)...
If they will do this to this man, an American citizen,
then they will do it to me. And you.
And just for the record, the Patriot Act scares the ever-living shit out of me. It gives the gov't FAR too much power.
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they are coming to get us.
do you have any proof of that other than a guy being detained who was training with Al Queda to blow up Americans?
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11-30-2003
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#78
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I didn't say they're coming to get us, so I don't have to prove anything.
I just said that if they'll do it to him, they'll do it to you.
The bladed pendulum cuts both ways, and cheering for it just because it's not cutting you at the moment doesn't eliminate the fact that it can swing over to your side.
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11-30-2003
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#79
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Quote:
Originally posted by JR+Nov 30 2003, 11:34 PM-->| QUOTE (JR @ Nov 30 2003, 11:34 PM) | |
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11-30-2003
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#80
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"It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others."
-Thomas Jefferson
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11-30-2003
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#81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 30 2003, 08:38 PM
I just said that if they'll do it to him, they'll do it to you.
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this is what i am talking about.
"they will do it to me" ????
do you have anymore info?
when?
where?
why?
i am innocent. i swear.
Please Mr. Government Man,... dont take out my liver with that spoon and force me to eat it. Please!?!?!"
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11-30-2003
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#82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 30 2003, 11:38 PM
I just said that if they'll do it to him, they'll do it to you.
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They'll do it to me if I train to kill Americans and plot to perform terrorist acts....
I can live with that...
BTW, I am no big fan of the Patriot Act...it is not being abused here...
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11-30-2003
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#83
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but dont think for a second that i don't appreciate the value of alarmists in society.
you worry about everything, so i dont have to.
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11-30-2003
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#84
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This is an American citizen. What they taught me in Civics class oh so long ago is that an American citizen has a right to trial by Jury, and a lawyer to defend himself. You may consider it silly, or irrelevant, or alarmist, or any number of other things - but as a kid raised on the idea that the difference between America and the society in which Serge grew up is that the government could not levy charges against you without providing you the opportunity to defend yourself.
Quote:
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I stood silent when they came for the ...
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11-30-2003
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#85
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Quote:
Originally posted by JR@Nov 30 2003, 11:34 PM
do you have any proof of that other than a guy being detained who was training with Al Queda to blow up Americans?
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This brings up a curious word, "proof".
I haven't seen any proof that this man *was* training with Al Quaeda or that he planned to blow up Americans.
Neither have you, because the evidence has not been presented in a court of law. It's just someone's say-so at this point.
If they grabbed Serge tomorrow and threw him in prison for sending coded terrorist messages on Cotac.com, would you believe them or would you be telling them to prove it?
If they threw *you* in prison tomorrow claiming that *you* were part of Al Quaeda and planning to blow up Americans, would you sit there calmly or demand a lawyer and a trial?
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12-01-2003
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#86
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Terrorism is a very interesting agenda. As of 9/11, there have been no other verifiable attacks on the US. But the US as we knew it before 9/11 and as it is know has changed. Maybe for the good, as some would have us believe, and maybe for the bad, as others would have us believe. But the government, as it is, finds ways to try and protect us. Within this ring of protection are people that justify their jobs and exploit their inner dark sides of manipulation and power. I'm sure their are gov. employees that are doing the job they do, as best as they can and then at 5pm they go home to their wife and kids. But there are the few, but highly placed few, that feel that they need to stick it to someone, anyone, maybe even you. These few are so deeply embedded and so well connected that they can do no wrong. These are the other terrorists. The ones that can make your life and mine a living hell, just because they can. City, county, state, and federal, they all have these over acheiver.
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12-01-2003
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#87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie+Nov 30 2003, 08:48 PM-->
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12-01-2003
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#88
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Prostate Examiner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 30 2003, 11:32 PM
I'm all for "breaking the spine" of the terrorists, BUT... (there's always a but)...
If they will do this to this man, an American citizen,
then they will do it to me. And you.
And just for the record, the Patriot Act scares the ever-living shit out of me. It gives the gov't FAR too much power.
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and who voted for it?
officials elected by you,
thus they represent the prevailing =view of the citizens of thsi country.
live with it
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12-01-2003
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#89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Nov 30 2003, 09:12 PM
and who voted for it?
officials elected by you,
thus they represent the prevailing =view of the citizens of thsi country.
live with it
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exactly! this is the lunacy of their ideas. they support democracy as long as they agree with it. if not, then people are "sheep", brainwashed and being tricked and lied to and the ruling party are Nazi's.
crazy.
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12-01-2003
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#90
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Prostate Examiner
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC@Nov 30 2003, 11:28 PM
The Godfather is a great piece of art. Although it's fiction.
Thomas Jefferson was real.
Here are some more of his quotes. He was able to see a lot further than just 10 years.
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."
"I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet devised by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution".
Here are a lot more:
http://quotes.telemanage.ca/quotes.nsf/Quo...homas+Jefferson
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so you answered my question:
you have no kids and your own perception of the government is much more important than the lives of the children you don't have.
jefferson, shmefferson, hagen, 10 years, fiction...
even hagen could see for the 10 years span,
you can't...the life of your children is not in your equation.
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12-01-2003
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#91
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dont hurt yourselves with all this information
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?p...4¬Found=true
"A U.S. citizen accused of plotting to explode a radiological "dirty bomb" in the United States must be granted access to an attorney to challenge his detention as an enemy combatant, a federal judge in New York ruled yesterday.
The ruling, part of a broad, 102-page decision by Michael B. Mukasey, chief judge for New York's Southern District, rejected the Bush administration's assertion that allowing Jose Padilla access to his attorney would impede intelligence gathering and jeopardize national security."
"In his decision, Mukasey said "the central issue" in the case was whether "the president has the authority to designate as an unlawful combatant an American citizen, captured on American soil, and detain him without trial."
The president did have that right, Mukasey wrote, rejecting Padilla's argument that the Constitution prohibits the indefinite detention of a U.S. citizen. The president, in his role as commander in chief, can designate Americans as enemy combatants, Mukasey ruled, adding that it was not necessary to address concerns that Padilla's detention, like the war on terrorism, could go on indefinitely."
"The Padilla case is one of several working their way through the legal system to test the Bush administration's claim of broad powers to wage a war on terrorism. Yesterday, the full federal appeals court in Philadelphia, reaffirming the position of a three-judge panel, upheld the legality of closed-door immigration hearings for terror suspects."
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12-01-2003
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#92
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Quote:
Originally posted by JR+Dec 1 2003, 12:14 AM-->| QUOTE (JR @ Dec 1 2003, 12:14 AM) |
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12-01-2003
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#93
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Prostate Examiner
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Quote:
Originally posted by JR+Dec 1 2003, 12:14 AM-->| QUOTE (JR @ Dec 1 2003, 12:14 AM) | |
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12-01-2003
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#94
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