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Originally posted by Sword@Feb 27 2003, 03:41 PM Yeah it's all "amateur psychology" here Pornodoggy. Is that the best you can do? If we're talking amateurs here, I'm quite certain every one of your opinions ranks as just that. Unless I missed something regarding your qualifications to debate this being any more extensive than the rest of us.
I won't comment on the rest of your stuff, because I didn't bother to read it. Why should I? Apparently the new thing from you is disregarding everything that is posted by an "amateur" on this board, and your posts certainly qualify for that, just like the rest of us.
Touchy, touchy, touchy ... and while I may have disagreed with what you said, I didn't get petulant and stop reading what you had to say.
You seem to feel that it's all a matter of jealousy - Mike used the sibling rivalry analogy, and I think you were using the sports team scenario. By that way of thinking, you almost give credence to the morons who say it's all just a question of the American bully flexing his muscles and beating up on small brown people he can get to because he's mad - that would be the "either/or" to your analogy. I would dismiss that as amateur psychology, too, and also call it shallow, superficial, muddle-headed thinking. And as far as the term "amateur" goes ... when I read lines like "it is the basic psychology of class envy or in this case country envy" the word amateur does pop into mind. Country envy? Puh-leaze!
Yes ... I'm sure that there are some people all across the world who oppose a war with Iraq just because America is pushing for it. They are stupid. There are people in this country who don't know the difference between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, and think the majority of hijackers were Iraqi. They are stupid too. There are lots of stupid people out there.
IMHO, not everyone who thinks the United States is/may be going down a dangererous path here is some immature nitwit responding in some Freudian/Marxist way to all the wonderful things America has that they don't. If the term "amateur psychology" bothers you, I apologize - you know us liberals, we are always sensetive to other peole's feelings.
Allow me to replace it with "shallow, superficial, muddle-headed thinking."
If that's too many words, try 'BULLSHIT."
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i posted this in another thread about "what sports teams do you hate", but i feel it applys here too.
------
dont hate.
except you can hate circus clowns. i hate those fuckers. whats with the big feet, the funny nose and those dumb little cars. scary bastards, jumping around throwing shit and hitting each other with pies and honking those fucking horns? and how did they all get into that little car anyways? those dipshits.
if you are gonna hate... hate clowns. then when the clowns form an NBA team that sucks, you can hate them twice. When the clowns start playing good defense and getting more rebounds, you may have to reconsider though.
"There are way more terrorists in Pakistan, in Sudan, in Yemen. Why Iraq first?"
From a stratigic stand point - I would say because once Iraq is "occupied" it would be very easy to control the entire middle east.
With troops in Afghanastan and Iraq - Iran - part 2 of the "Axis of Evil" is flanked on both sides - would make is rather easy to walk over them as well.
Pakistan - even though they are a nuclear power has their hand full worrying about a billion people in India that would like to remove them as a country.
Saudi Arabia - will fall right into line once Iraq is under US control (and here is where the oil part comes in) because with what is in Iraq the US could turn off the Saudis Cash cow.
This will not end with Iraq - it is the start of a play to control the middle east
Maybe this is a little more of the "American Ego" but I'll contribute an observation about my trip to Europe in December.
In London I could definitely pick up on the anti-Americanism, it was right underneath the surface. All I had to do was speak with my "American Accent" (we all know they are the ones with the accents) . I heard about how:
"Americans are assholes"
"Americans are stupid"
"Americans are brainwashed by CNN"
"George Bush is a scumbag and caused September 11th to happen"
It went on and on... I was constantly amazed at the shit I heard.
I realized that Americans don't spend their days hating other countries. I never hear, "The British are assholes", "Australians are this...", “Japanese are this... ". Sure we like to make fun of our Canadian friends to the north every once in a while, but they know deep down we love them!
Why is it that America and America's foreign policy matters so much?
Why is it so "cool" to "hate Americans"?
"The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $36,300. "
If another country was the "largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world", we’d all be talking about how much we hate them. It comes down to jealousy.
I'll admit it, if I were not a US Citizen I would be jealous too!
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Originally posted by KC@Feb 27 2003, 07:22 PM If another country was the "largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world", we’d all be talking about how much we hate them. It comes down to jealousy.
You know, I didn't even think of that part of it. Perhaps there are people who assume that people who disagree with American policy have to assume they do so on account of jealousy because that's the kind of petty criteria they would base things on.
Damn. Too many options.
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CJ - I went back and read the things I posted in this thread - and I sincerely believe in every word I said, it's not propaganda, it's not clichés. For me where I stand today it the honest truth.
It's not in a book handed to you at birth, it's the realizations that come with age and experience
Every nation must do what is best for it's own well being. That's part of the reason the US is having problems with France and the UN. France has decided that it is better for them to support Iraq that to support it's long time ally America. To each their own
"why would ANY foreigner want to post on this board?" - maybe to take the opportunity to share their perspective and get a little positive back in return.
The Oprano community is primarily composed of Americans (and a few are chest beaters like myself) but I'd like to think that even as chest beating American's we are not so dense as to discard another's valid viewpoints, perspectives or experiences just because they do not agree with our concepts
and again please understand how tired we are as American's of all the America bashing that goes on - and that does lead to the fuck all attitude
If the shoe was on the other foot I hope citizens of other nations could take all the flack as well as American's have - especially after everything that America has done positive in the last 2 centuries
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I realized that Americans don't spend their days hating other countries. I never hear, "The British are assholes", "Australians are this...", “Japanese are this... ". Sure we like to make fun of our Canadian friends to the north every once in a while, but they know deep down we love them!
LMFAO!!!!
never?
americans never say anything hateful about other countries??
LIES!
HYPOCRICY!
america is the most hateful nation i have had experience with in the western world. your view of yourself is very well jaded!!!
oh that's right, we don't deal in actual facts around here, just the american version.
KC, its obvious from your post that you just skimmed through the thread, and picked a couple of sentences that you could reply with the same old thing ... you have dismissed all views and opinions expressed on this board by latching onto a single point that makes you feel better about the opinions raised about your country. (ie, the jealousy thing)
Have you ever visited my country? I'm FAR from jealous, believe me. The only thing America has that I wish my country had is Junior Mints, but we've got Tim Tams so you really should be jealous of us.
I have free health care
My streets are clean
People don't carry guns
My country folk are loyal and hardworking and friendly
I can flick through 50 cable channels and watch american sitcoms
I received an icq before by a fellow foreigner telling me to chill ... 'they aren't worth worrying about'
This is what those who you scare away with your childish arguments think:
Quote:
i agree with you btw and am one of those pussy foreigners who just refuses to buy into this...just thought you needed to chill
i don't get into political debates because it's like bashing your head on a brick wall
the saying 'there are none so blind as those that will not see' springs to mind far too often these days on oprano
way to go oprano!!!!
KC for president!!!!
YEAH!!!!
France is "supporting" Iraq? France did not oppose the reinsertion of Weapons Inspectors as unnecessary. I don't recall the French taking the position that Saddam is a good guy who should be left alone. France is taking a more cautious approach to the use of military force than the U.S. would like. There's a big difference there.
Quote:
I realized that Americans don't spend their days hating other countries.
Maybe the Europeans use a few more words (assholes, stupid, brainwashed) to describe Americans than a lot of Americans use to describe Europeans. All I hear from most circles is "pussy." Well, there's "anti-semitic' from one crowd, and "pansy socialists" from another, but mostly it's just "pussy." Do I detect "vocabulary envy?"
I was in Spain and Portugal in the mid 70s, as both countries were coming out of long periods of facist rule - facist governments supported by the United States during the cold war in exchange for base rights; facist governments very much guilty of all the things we accuse Saddam Hussein of today (now that his facist government is no longer useful to us). It was an interesting and exciting time to be there - watching people experience free elections for the first time in 50 or 60 years can give you a better appreciation for some things you tend to take for granted.
Perhaps things have changed in the 30 years since I was there; I don't know. What I found, however, is that there were a few people who hated me for being American. There were an awful lot more who hated a lot of the actions of my government without hating me.
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never?
americans never say anything hateful about other countries??
LIES!
HYPOCRICY!
Actually, if you slow down and re-read, it says we don't spend out days hating other countries! I don't recall saying never.
Quote:
Have you ever visited my country? I'm FAR from jealous, believe me. The only thing America has that I wish my country had is Junior Mints, but we've got Tim Tams so you really should be jealous of us.
I haven't yet been fortunate enough to have visited Oz, but I'm excited to visit. I know several Aussies and hear it's a beautiful place!!
Quote:
I have free health care
My streets are clean
People don't carry guns
My country folk are loyal and hardworking and friendly
I can flick through 50 cable channels and watch american sitcoms
Why is it that you watch America sitcoms? The only Aussie TV Shows we get in America are "Crocodile Hunter" and "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here" (Which is a god awful show with has-been American actors, but is in fact based in the Aussie Bush!)
CJ, Don't take it so personally, I consider you an "Honorary American" because you work with so many Americans! When I come visit I'll buy you a pack of Tim Tams and we can get "pissed" drinking Foster's together!!
Yep this is ... for lack of words ... an "amazing" thread. One which pretty much I'm staying out of as there are land mines everywhere.
I do have to say that I am most interested in reading the opinions of the non-Americans here. I am much more interested in seeing us through their eyes than anything else in this thread.
I've also come away with a greater appreciation for Junior Mints that I had previously.
Nice to know I ain't so lonely out here... thanks cj, gigi...
The points have all been well made, the comments bang on... the view from inside the US is extremely different from the view outside.
I respect the view from the inside... but I know from what I can see out here that it isn't the common view of the world.
CJ, I live in sort of the same country... relatively clean, health care, not many guns all considered, few murders, safer streets. Commonwealth countries? I don't know if that is the deal... whatever it is, I don't think we have it all that bad.
Alex
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Canada and Australia ARE great places, but, and I ask this in all honesty, if another country decided to take you over by force, do you have the military ability to protect yourselves?
Peaches, you don't piss people off, you don't have to fight too often.
Besides out neighbor to the south ("you knighted stays"), there are very few countries with enough fire power to do us in... China, Russia, the usual offenders... I don't think we have too much to worry about from the Laotian air force, ya know?
US could take us over... the only difference would be less health care, more crime... :-)
Slavdogg, sorry I don't fit in much of anywhere in the political system of the US...
Alex
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Everyone always brings up guns. They think America is a dangerous place because of guns.. guns this guns that.
After watching the movie "Bowling for Columbine" I did some research to see what the gun related death rates really were. People constantly bring up how safe Japan is, because there were so few gun related deaths. Statistics can often be skewed in any direction to support almost any argument. Obviously the movie "Bowling for Columbine" took those stats and presented them in a very skewed way.
Suicidal Americans often use a gun in the process of their suicide. So all of those incidents get included in the "Gun related death" stats. Did you know that most Japanese commit suicide with knife into their stomach? (seppuku)
So let's look at a chart that displays "international violent death rates showing gun and non-gun homicide, suicide, and total violent death rates". After all, safety should include all forms of homicide.
i recently read a new story about Australia.
They banned guns ( not sure in what form )
and their crime death rate remained the same, they just found new ways to commit murder.
KC, almost any number can be brought up to express a given point. But this list is missing some very important issues...
US murder rate: 6.8 for every 100,000 (1997 number I found on CNN)
In Japan, the United Nations reports the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000 (common number quoted on pro-gun sites).
In other words, you are 6.8 times more likely to get killed in the US than in Japan. You are more likely to commit suicide in Japan, as your numbers show, but it is VERY misleading to combine suicide and crime together to try to show things are just as safe. I am not suicidal (although posting here could cause it... not)... so I am almost 7 times safer living in Japan.
Sorry, but your stats are misleading, combine non-relevant information in an attempt to create false impression.
I mean, imagine: You are more likely to getting murdered in the middle of Idaho then you are in Japan...
Alex
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 10:06 PM I mean, imagine: You are more likely to getting murdered in the middle of Idaho then you are in Japan...
The numbers are the numbers!!
Maybe the murder rate is lower because when a Japanese person screws over someone in Japan, They'd rather off themselves and die with honor than get shot for revenge. They're dead either way.
The result is that the surroundings cause suicide (ie: death)! So which is really safer? What about France, it looks like they're killing themselves like it's going out of style.
I don't think I'd want to live in a place that makes my want to commit suicide.
KC, whenyou are 18600% more likely to get murdered by gun in the US, maybe people don't have time to slink off and commit suicide.
Seriously, though, unless you know Japan, you won't realize that their culture is VERY different from American culture. Honor and Cho is much more important to them than you can imagine. The pressure to do well in Japan, to fit in, and to be part of their society is huge... some people don't make it, and take their own lives. It is VERY sad, and their culture doesn't allow for much discussion of this subject. Things are changing, but it is a very slow process.
I love Japan, I would love to live there... it is a beautiful country.
Alex
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KC, I have made a couple of trips to Japan, and have full intention to return as soon as time and planning permit. It is actually very weird how safe you will feel there... go to Tokyo, travel by subway (even last train of the night) without fear... wander the red light district with no real bigger fear than the endless calls of "sexy massage" and "I make special offer for you!"... it isn't as safe as it once was, but compared to ANY major american city, it is safer than you can imagine.
It actually took me about 3 days to turn down the radar - Tokyo is very crowded, but not that nasty rude "get the fuck out of my way" version, just alot of people with things to do and places to go.
I *HIGHLY* recommend it. (and I travelled ALONE, with no real understanding of the language or the country... and had a blast!)
Alex
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Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 27 2003, 09:37 PM Canada and Australia ARE great places, but, and I ask this in all honesty, if another country decided to take you over by force, do you have the military ability to protect yourselves?
An honest question...an honest answer....NO! HAHA (you've seen our navy...a pic was posted a couple of weeks ago....hehe)
But we do have the Great Wall of Beer Cans around the entire circumference of Canada, 100 cans deep, 1000 cans high. The plan it to get invaders wasted on Canadian beer so we can come in and steal their guns.
In all seriousness....Canada is FAR from being able to protect itself on it's own militarily. HOWEVER, Canada also has many allies....Where others excel, we lack....and visa versa. Canada has much to offer in the way of natural resources, and even a half decent space program....we give what we can in our own way, as do our allies....that's what having friends is all about.
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 02:09 PM North Korea ... Who has weapons of mass destruction? Who is making threats? Who is testing missles with range to reach America?
What's the difference?
You've hit the nail on the head right there, that *is* the difference.
N. Korea has the weapons to hit us right now, so we must approach them carefully and exhaust every last option. To do otherwise is to risk WWIII.
That's why we're not rushing in there guns blazing - we could be signing our own death warrant if we do so (especially since they have big brother China sitting just behind them).
N. Korea is still willing to talk and seemingly compromise - so until they no longer are, the talks should continue.
*Only* when all of that is exhausted should we consider anything else.
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CJ: Big bad UN isn't looking after poor wittle america and instead its considering the effects on the world?!!?! shit 'eh. wasn't that its purpose? so a country like america can't bully their way into controlling every country of the world? is that why you don't like it mike?
Since when are we bullying anyone?
Isn't the UN there to protect things like humanity?
Isn't the UN supposed to stand up and DO something when Hussein is bombing and gassing his OWN people?
Why isn't the UN doing something about that?
We've had 12 years of useless "please mr hussein" resolutions from the UN and NO action to get this madman out of power.
The UN draws a line in the sand with a shaky hand and apologizing the entire time. When Hussein ignores that line and boldly walks across it, the UN draws another one even further back, again complemented by apologies for having to do so. Hussein ignores it again.
12 times now.
What I want to know is why the OTHER countries in the world - like Australia - aren't standing up and demanding that something be done? Why didn't they do it 6 years ago when Hussein was still bombing and gassing his own people?
And why is it that because America *is* doing this, we're the big awful "bully"?
The UK is right beside us in this... why aren't they also being tagged with the "bully" line?
Quote:
CJ:
The WORST part of these discussions is that you actually manage to convince each other you are being fair and reasonable ... you constantly repeat phrases like 'dont get me wrong i like you personally' in an attempt to make you appear reasonable to each other. Do you think that as long as you say 'i like you' that you can be as ignorant and rude as you like?
No, it's reaffirming that the person is not being attacked, but the ideas that the person is putting forth are being debated.
I like Alex, I think he's a fun guy with a headful of valueable knowledge. I don't agree with many of his political beliefs. There's a difference. Just because I don't agree with his beliefs doesn't mean I MUST hate him, that I have no other choice. That's just childish.
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Originally posted by cj@Feb 28 2003, 12:02 AM if you want your country to be the 'likable leader', act like it!!! calling those who DO support you 'scrawny 80 pound weaklings' is hardly a way to win friends.
I honestly thought that Peaches was referring to herself in this post - *not* to any of our allies.
I know I've seen pictures of Peaches but I can't remember them... anyhow that was my take on it and if it was the wrong 'take', I stand corrected!
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Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 28 2003, 01:11 AM What I want to know is why the OTHER countries in the world - like Australia - aren't standing up and demanding that something be done? Why didn't they do it 6 years ago when Hussein was still bombing and gassing his own people?
And why is it that because America *is* doing this, we're the big awful "bully"?
The UK is right beside us in this... why aren't they also being tagged with the "bully" line?
Ummm ... before you rant about something, you ought to check the facts, Carrie. Some Australian forces have already gone to the Gulf - left in early January, if I'm not mistaken - with more on the way. There are not as many forces as the U.S. and Britain are providing - they don't have as many, and they've got far more danger on the homefront than we do, IMHO - but it is a substantial force for them.
That's with an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group operating freely far closer than southern Mexico would be to Dallas, in an area that is in complete chaos. That's at (as I understand it) tremendous political risk to the Prime Minister - because Australian public opinion is even more closely divided than American public opinion, and the likelihood of a backlash for supporting the U.S. is great.
Whenever the U.S. has requested it, Australia has been there - in Korea, into the insanity of Vietnam, and the Gulf War. Sorry about clouding the issue with relevant facts, Carrie, but you really should have known better than this one.
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PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.
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my apologies to peaches if I read that incorrectly.
like i said, i was shocked ... so maybe that's why ;-)
carrie, go back and read the topic I was responding to before you attack me and the opinions i've stated in an open discussion. your doing exactly what this whole discussion started from ... automatically getting on your international high horse and jumping on the 'stop picking on us' defense.
your not even discussing the same subjects as I am. I don't need convincing that America is in the right for wanting to blow up iraq so have another read of the posts. ALL of them.
---
What I want to know is why the OTHER countries in the world - like Australia - aren't standing up and demanding that something be done? Why didn't they do it 6 years ago when Hussein was still bombing and gassing his own people?
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ummmm ..... what?! nice way to piss off an australia - claim we aren't standing up and making demands. we are the only country who has declared unconditional support for you and you have the nerve to speak this sentence? looks to me like we ARE standing up and making some demands and your standing on a soapbox hoping to get a few 'jabs' in and hoping no one sees that you don't know what you are talking about. did you know that australia was victim to a terrorist attack (in bali) which lost 170 (mostly) australian lives due to our immediate and very public support of usa?
>>Just because I don't agree with his beliefs doesn't mean I MUST hate him, that I have no other choice. That's just childish.
really?
that's funny .... i could have sworn that alex and I have said the same thing in this thread! like i said, read again ....
i'll help you out
its all about what makes someone an america hater, and started with colin asking alex to justify his answer on whether he was an america hater. then the point came up that only an american can point out flaws in american politics and that foreigners would be america haters if we said the same. then a few americans came along and changed the course of the discussion by rewording everything into american english and only taking the time to read 1 or 2 posts that outraged them and then responding with a string of americanisms that had nothing to do with the original point - like you've done.
Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 28 2003, 01:50 AM PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.
It's not just a question of "...have been there", Carrie ... they are putting their money where their mouth is and backing us now. You're saying your upset because, why, they aren't doing it loud enough?
I have no reason to think that Australia isn't backing up the U.S. at the UN - considering they have troops on the way and already there, it would be pretty peculiar if they weren't. Perhaps they aren't doing it as loud, as shrill, or as self righteously as you think appropriate - but they are there for us. I don't believe they currently hold one of the rotating seats on the Security Council, which probably explains why we aren't hearing much about that. We are concentrating our efforts on Cameroon at the moment.
The UK and Australia are taking plenty of heat about their support for our position on this. Both Blair and Howard are taking heat from within their own parties, let alone from their opposition, for their stands behind us. World opposition has focused on the U.S. - since we are spearheading the effort, that seems only appropriate. In the eyes of the world Australia and the U.K. are dancing to GW’s tune. alQaida and other such vermin have also taken note.
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Gawd..I had to make a friggin pot of coffee to read this god forsaken thread.
Carrie, I agree totally with you.
The other day, i had to go out of town. While driving, i didn't feel like listening to music or ESPN radio. So I found a talk show on the radio.
After listening for a while. I didn't know it. But it was Rush Limbaugh. I hate that ignorant fuck. But while listening to him, before I realized who he was. Callers called in complaining the only reason we are going to war with Iraq is oil.
Hear me out and THINK about this.
Rush made a VERY clear point.
Iraq is NOT about fuckin oil. Yes, they have plenty. But if we actually wanted their oil. Its would save us BILLIONS of dollars and save thousands of lives, just lift the fuckin embargo.
Remember that embargo that the UN placed on Iraq?
Its all about bringing stablitly to the Middle East, nothing more.
Yes, it does have to do with some American interest, businesses and etc.
But this man is a total bully and has defide the UN for 12 years and his OWN people..
We have had santions on IRAQ for 12 years and the man isn't disarming like he is supposed too.
He's building up.
Since he is playing games with the UN and the rest of the world.
Since the UN doesn't wanna do anything about it.
The U.S. is gonna go in and clean up what the UN doesn't care to do.
When is enough, enough?
Sooner we get Saddam outta there. The better.
I'm like everyone else. I hate war too.
But sometimes, you just have to to bring peace for the future.
But after listening to that stupid fuck Limbaugh.
That was the first thing I ever have agree'd to anything he has said.
Saddam wants a Holy War.
We'll give that stupid fuck one.
Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 28 2003, 01:50 AM PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.
*smacking head*
ooooooh right
so we should be sending our screaming forces instead of our military forces?!?!?
sorry our soldiers are risking their lives when we should have been focusing on screaming at the UN.
Carrie, if your going to throw out false, insulting, sweeping statements like you did, expect it to be picked apart and thrown back at you ... you didn't exactly clarify any facts when you said it, it was just a rant based on anger at my posts.
Stop whinging that poor america has to do all the screaming. you want to be the big boy then quit complaining that the world is picking on you and take responsiblity for what you started.
Why don't you go and travel to japan first, it will give your perspective some credit.
Since when do I need to travel to Japan to form an OPINION about how I think I'll feel there? Besides, you missed the whole point about Japan.
Quote:
due to our immediate and very public support of usa?
Blame the terrorist attacks in Bali on Australia's support of the USA??? That's absurd. Australia supports our fight against terrorism because TERRORISM IS WRONG.
People in this thread are getting so defensive.. I'm going to bow out and get back to work. Have fun attacking each other..
I am simply asking why ANYONE - including Australia - hasn't thought enough of the atrocities going on in Iraq to force this issue before now?
My guess is that you are including the US in that statement correct? The US sat on the Iraq issues for the same 12 years the rest of 'us' did.
and any country who did stand up would not only have to take on iraq, but usa as well ... because although usa has been dropping the ball for 12 years, heaven forbid should anyone else have a go ... and even if any other country wanted to, who is big enough to take on iraq by themselves? not even usa can do it!
02-27-2003
. I heard about how: 
Hybrid Mode
