Just an observation for what it's worth...

[sarettah]

Adult translates to mainstream a helluva lot better then mainstream translates to adult.

At least on the web.

[softball]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Adult translates to mainstream a helluva lot better then mainstream translates to adult.

At least on the web.

Well, since adult paved the way and formed the templates for billing, navigation, and marketing that makes perfect sense. However, the money now is in mainstream. It is growing in leaps and bounds and now is wagging the dog.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Well, since adult paved the way and formed the templates for billing, navigation, and marketing that makes perfect sense. However, the money now is in mainstream. It is growing in leaps and bounds and now is wagging the dog.

Yeha but for the most part of what I've seen their affiliate programs, payouts and marketing materials suck.

With the admministration of their affiliate progams being the absolute worst part of it. Too many fucking rules, too many requiring that you pull the banners and such from their servers (I hate that shit the most, tiny affiliate programs with dinky servers that insist on serving up the banners which means half the fucing time the banner doesn't even come up)

[softball]

That part they are learning. However, they are basing their payouts on sound business principals. Most businesses offer ten to thirty percent for referrals and I think that is what they are working from. I don't see that changing any time soon.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

That part they are learning. However, they are basing their payouts on sound business principals. Most businesses offer ten to thirty percent for referrals and I think that is what they are working from. I don't see that changing any time soon.

The adult affiliate business model is broken and has been broken for sometime.

They call it stealing instead of shaving everywhere else.

[softball]

Originally Posted by gonzo

The adult affiliate business model is broken and has been broken for sometime.

They call it stealing instead of shaving everywhere else.

There are lots of problems in the adult business. Mostly it is because a large per centage of those involved do not treat it like a business. This malaise is rampant at all levels, from models that flake (it just happened to me last week) to producers that bounce cheques, to designers that don't deliver, to all and sundry that act like pimps and playas and can actually pull it off with very little effort. I believe there is a fundamental laziness that populates our industry with losers that are trying for easy money. Kind of like Real Estate.
Present company excepted, of course.

[sarettah]

In the mainstream side of things there are just as many cheats, just as many crooks (I've worked for several of them) and just as many lazy folks looking for the easy buck.

From what I know of the mainstream net and this is probably because it is in reality a much larger population then the adult net, you do not hear as much shit becase the entire community is not as cohesive as the adult side is.

When someone screws you on the adult side of the net it is advertised, sometimes qute loudly, across the boards.

Most of the mainstream boards I frequent actually practice some decorum and frowwn greatly on call outs and such. They do not appreciate the drama at all.

Additionally, there seems to be a lot more clueless folks out there in mainstream land waiting to be ripped off. On some of the mainstream biz boards I frequent, people think running a website means knowing how to put their products into the shopping cart. They are clueless when it comes to html, they hire out almost everything and they get burned quite often. One of the things I have seen is people buying a "package deal". They get the domain, hosting and the site design all from the same person. If that person decides to screw them, they are completely screwed.

On the adult side, webmaster seem to be more independent. Most of us actually know html, know at least some css, know how to install scripts and the actual "mechanics" of building and running a website. we discuss htaccess issues, scripting issues, etc and most folks can actually follow the discussion.

If I do that on the mainstream boards (at least the ones I have visited) the folks there are immediately lost.

On Jen's sites, we used adult techniques. She used the adult tutorials to learn html while I was learning how to build sites. We used single stand alone sales pages, fpas and many of the other "adult" techniques and they for the most part work.

Anyway, I only posted the comments because I have been looking for some mainstream programs for an idea I have and out of about 10 I applied to I only got accepted by 2 and the reasons were the same, I was n't generating enough traffic. Well, duh. The site does not exist yet..lol. It generates NO traffic at this point...

That is something I have rarely had to deal with in adult. I sign up, give them one of my adlt domains as a primary, even if there is no site there yet and voila, approval and access to ad tools and away we go.

[softball]

Originally Posted by sarettah

In the mainstream side of things there are just as many cheats, just as many crooks (I've worked for several of them) and just as many lazy folks looking for the easy buck.

From what I know of the mainstream net and this is probably because it is in reality a much larger population then the adult net, you do not hear as much shit becase the entire community is not as cohesive as the adult side is.

When someone screws you on the adult side of the net it is advertised, sometimes qute loudly, across the boards.

Most of the mainstream boards I frequent actually practice some decorum and frowwn greatly on call outs and such. They do not appreciate the drama at all.

Additionally, there seems to be a lot more clueless folks out there in mainstream land waiting to be ripped off. On some of the mainstream biz boards I frequent, people think running a website means knowing how to put their products into the shopping cart. They are clueless when it comes to html, they hire out almost everything and they get burned quite often. One of the things I have seen is people buying a "package deal". They get the domain, hosting and the site design all from the same person. If that person decides to screw them, they are completely screwed.

On the adult side, webmaster seem to be more independent. Most of us actually know html, know at least some css, know how to install scripts and the actual "mechanics" of building and running a website. we discuss htaccess issues, scripting issues, etc and most folks can actually follow the discussion.

If I do that on the mainstream boards (at least the ones I have visited) the folks there are immediately lost.

On Jen's sites, we used adult techniques. She used the adult tutorials to learn html while I was learning how to build sites. We used single stand alone sales pages, fpas and many of the other "adult" techniques and they for the most part work.

Anyway, I only posted the comments because I have been looking for some mainstream programs for an idea I have and out of about 10 I applied to I only got accepted by 2 and the reasons were the same, I was n't generating enough traffic. Well, duh. The site does not exist yet..lol. It generates NO traffic at this point...

That is something I have rarely had to deal with in adult. I sign up, give them one of my adlt domains as a primary, even if there is no site there yet and voila, approval and access to ad tools and away we go.

That all sounds like an opportunity. Suckers waiting to be fleeced. Businesses needing real marketing expertise as well as solid design and navigation and best of all, consulting services.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

That all sounds like an opportunity. Suckers waiting to be fleeced. Businesses needing real marketing expertise as well as solid design and navigation and best of all, consulting services.

yeah sounds like it until you see that they expect to get a domain, hosting, custom design and all the help they want for $99 a year.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by sarettah

yeah sounds like it until you see that they expect to get a domain, hosting, custom design and all the help they want for $99 a year.

Its early yet but I met some good people crossing over from mainstream.
They could benefit from some of the things youve discussed and know it.
Affiliate techniques....adword strategies are a couple of many things they are interested in.

Ill keep you posted on our progress but its interesting you bring up this topic now.

[softball]

Originally Posted by sarettah

yeah sounds like it until you see that they expect to get a domain, hosting, custom design and all the help they want for $99 a year.

Could be a reaction to the days when they were being charged a 100K for a five page website that took a couple of hours to build. But they were panicked and thought the net was leaving them behind. Then came the bust.

[Hammer]

I made lots of money with mainstream sites before I started building adult sites in '96 and I continue to do well with mainstream. At one point I had a very large and well known online shopping mall in the 90's that had more traffic and made more money than most of the adult sites on the Net today, so I don't think that mainstream needed to catch up to adult, it's always been there.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I made lots of money with mainstream sites before I started building adult sites in '96 and I continue to do well with mainstream. At one point I had a very large and well known online shopping mall in the 90's that had more traffic and made more money than most of the adult sites on the Net today, so I don't think that mainstream needed to catch up to adult, it's always been there.

I think the technology and the marketing were in place, but customer trust had the shit kicked out of it by spammers, pop ups, cj's, phone re directs and any number of scams conceived and perpetrated by opportunists in the adult industry. It effected everyone else's profits for years. People became afraid of the internet. Only now is it finding its first solid steps. There is a long, long prosperous future for those who understand how it works.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I made lots of money with mainstream sites before I started building adult sites in '96

Hmm... I would be interested in knowing where you were making money on the net prior to '96. Not doubting it, but those are the extremely extremely early days for anyone making money on the net. I know folks in adult that were doing it but most of the mainstream stuff (at least that were selling product, not building/coding) weren't making diddly from what I could see back then.

But back then I was just trying to keep the bills paid because there were 3 kids to keep fed and clothed and I missed jumping on the net train.

So I definitely could be wrong, as usual )

[Hell Puppy]

I will agree with the original statement that adult techniques work better for mainstream than vice versa....

BUT, i think one of the main differences in adult versus mainstream overall is mainstream tends to think long term. Adult is more of a quick buck and strip mine mentality. Get all you can right now, forget about tomorrow.

I think this largely equates to the risk factors. We're all one Visa regulation away from having our business model fucked.

The economics are also broken in adult in that it basically forces the shave and shady marketing to stay competitive where the affiliate is concerned. Wnat a really large program? You'll never be a top 10 program unless you're paying $35+ per signup. Meanwhile, is every signup TRULY worth $35 right now?

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

I will agree with the original statement that adult techniques work better for mainstream than vice versa....

BUT, i think one of the main differences in adult versus mainstream overall is mainstream tends to think long term. Adult is more of a quick buck and strip mine mentality. Get all you can right now, forget about tomorrow.

I think this largely equates to the risk factors. We're all one Visa regulation away from having our business model fucked.

The economics are also broken in adult in that it basically forces the shave and shady marketing to stay competitive where the affiliate is concerned. Wnat a really large program? You'll never be a top 10 program unless you're paying $35+ per signup. Meanwhile, is every signup TRULY worth $35 right now?

"We're all one Visa regulation away from having our business model fucked."
Now that is a pearl.

[softball]

This business is a lot like the recreational drug dealing business of the sixties. It began with a lot of idealists doing it for fun, then for fun and profit, then for pure profit. When the pure profit motivation set in, the scumbags, opportunists, nasty gun toting rip off artists, got involved and the fun was over. Then came cocaine. Just a little at first, then it hit hard and heavy and the business went to hell in a handcart. In this business, the cocaine was the pop ups, spyware, adware, cj's, phone re directs etc. etc. They may have been innovations but they made surfing for porn nasty and risky. The money flowed and we were slipping on the milk and getting our shoes stuck in the honey. But, just like the sixties, it ended. Those who were in for the long haul stayed. A few made a lot of money and bailed. Some, like the redirect guys, spammers etc. became marginalized and bailed because they never could really do business, just scams.
The last real innovations that made shitpots of money were more content driven like Bang Bus and GGW and Milf Hunters. Now that same expertise is being displayed in 2.0 stuff. Personally, I like hanging out in niche where customers like everything to be the same....every day. Like Groundhog day. There is still a big market in adult for those who want to settle down and do an honest business. But you know how it goes, you can fool some of the customers some of the time, and some of the customers all of the time. But you sure as shit can't fool all of the customers all of the time.