More good news / bad news

[RawAlex]

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/19/news...dex.htm?hpt=T1

So if it is harder to get a CC under 21, perhaps that makes it less likely that we have a back to school rush on porn. On the plus side, it may mean that the people most likely to rip sites and turn them into torrents won't be able to sign up to start with.

Weird world.

[Toby]

Makes me damn thankful that my primary customer base is older.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/19/news...dex.htm?hpt=T1

So if it is harder to get a CC under 21, perhaps that makes it less likely that we have a back to school rush on porn. On the plus side, it may mean that the people most likely to rip sites and turn them into torrents won't be able to sign up to start with.

Weird world.

Doesn't have anything to do with debit cards....

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Doesn't have anything to do with debit cards....

Sorry, not following you. Why would you be concerned about debit (ATM) cards?

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Sorry, not following you. Why would you be concerned about debit (ATM) cards?

I'm not....
I meant you'll still get the customers with Debit cards bearing the MC/Visa Logo.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I'm not....
I meant you'll still get the customers with Debit cards bearing the MC/Visa Logo.

In theory, you can filter those off and decline them. The number series are different (somewhat)

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

In theory, you can filter those off and decline them. The number series are different (somewhat)

And you would want to do that because.....?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

And you would want to do that because.....?

they don't recur (accounts are usually empty).

They may not be 18.

the accounts have no name connection (if they are gift cards or other).

Etc.

if you are selling hard goods once, you might accept them, but for recurring memberships (especially trials with conversion) they are likely fails.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

they don't recur (accounts are usually empty).

They may not be 18.

the accounts have no name connection (if they are gift cards or other).

Etc.

if you are selling hard goods once, you might accept them, but for recurring memberships (especially trials with conversion) they are likely fails.

Yea, but why filter?
They can't be charged back, and if they fail after the first month, so what?
At least you get the first month?
What is the current churn rate for you guys?
1.5 months?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Yea, but why filter?
They can't be charged back, and if they fail after the first month, so what?
At least you get the first month?
What is the current churn rate for you guys?
1.5 months?

So you are saying you don't have a problem selling porn to minors?

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

So you are saying you don't have a problem selling porn to minors?

I thought you were being facetious about that, and simply didn't address it. Frankly, I don't think you should even kid about such a thing.

But if it's a true debit card/checking account, then NO they have to be 18, or they're breaking the law.

And I'll bet, technically, the use of the MC/Visa logo on a gift card has "must be 18" somewhere in the fine print.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I thought you were being facetious about that

Have you stopped beating your wife?

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Man, that one almost works....but not with me.
No wife.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Man, that one almost works....but not with me.
No wife.

when did you stop beating your virtual sex machine?

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

when did you stop beating your virtual sex machine?

That's better....


"Why no.......I never.......but I didn't........How should I have known?........That's not how it happened......."




(How was that?)

[RawAlex]

I'll wait for the press conference.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

But if it's a true debit card/checking account, then NO they have to be 18, or they're breaking the law.

Huh???

Where do you get that from.

My daughter has had a checking account w/ a debit card since she started working at 16. In fact the only way the company she works for pays is direct deposit so she had to get an account.

The only thing she needed was a signature from me indicating that it was ok. There are no co-signers on the account or anything like that.

As far as I know there is no such law on debit cards. I don't know the law on credit cards.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

And I'll bet, technically, the use of the MC/Visa logo on a gift card has "must be 18" somewhere in the fine print.

Wrongo

from: http://usa.visa.com/merchants/paymen...gift_card.html

How the Visa Gift card works
When accepting Visa Gift cards, keep in mind the following basics:

...................................

The card has no age limitation and purchases by youth should be honored per store policy.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Huh???

Where do you get that from.

My daughter has had a checking account w/ a debit card since she started working at 16. In fact the only way the company she works for pays is direct deposit so she had to get an account.

The only thing she needed was a signature from me indicating that it was ok. There are no co-signers on the account or anything like that.

As far as I know there is no such law on debit cards. I don't know the law on credit cards.

If you aren't 18, (or legally emancipated) you can't enter into a contract. You start to get into slice and dice legalities here, better handled by a lawyer.
And, of course, we also get into the fuzzy area of local state jurisdiction of 18/21.
I would think that ANY transaction made by a minor could be deemed invalid under contract law. Yet another way for the Banks to screw the merchant. (As if they didn't have enough loopholes in the MC/Visa guidelines now.)

So it's probably a bad idea, even if it was OK for a kid to get a hold of a debit card, to depend on that as a valid form of payment.

But now it begs the question? Are you concerned from a chargeback standpoint, or are you concerned that a 17 year old, 11 month 29 day old "child" might see porn while he's waiting for the bus to boot camp?

Our process is a bit more in depth, as we are a direct merchant, and don't work through third party processors. We follow the hipaa guidelines with customer privacy/certification.

[sarettah]

I spent 2 minutes this morning researhing the actual laws for the U.S. and basically confirmed what I already knew.

This is no law restricting creadit cards or debit cards by age other than what you cited which is that you have to be 18 to enter into a contract.

The actual law dealing with credit cards that started this thread is changing from 18 to 21 to get a credit card without proof of income basically. You can still get one if you have a c0-signer or if you can provide proof that you can pay the bill. So basically anyone with a $10.00 an hour job over 18 that is not encumbered could get a cc.

On credit cards, you can have one at any age if someone makes you a secondary card holder on their card. Now, some banks have policies restricting this by age.

Back when they tried to get Coppa through and had the part in there about using a cc to provide proof of age I knew that it would not work.

'Sides, even on the various consumer sites they warn not to use a cc or debit card as proof of age or identity.

As far as using for payment, a debit card is a hell of a lot harder to charge back on then a cc.


On a cc, you are by law (in the US) limited to like $50.00 of liability on a lost or stolen card. On a debit card there is no such law. There is a "courtesy policy" that some issuers have established that says they will limit the liability but from what I could find there is no legal limit on liability if you lose or have a debit card stolen. So as a form of payment, a debit card is actually probably more secure for the merchant than a cc.

just my two cents of course.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

If you aren't 18, (or legally emancipated) you can't enter into a contract. You start to get into slice and dice legalities here, better handled by a lawyer.
And, of course, we also get into the fuzzy area of local state jurisdiction of 18/21.

Sorry, but a minor can buy a visa / mastercard gift card at my local supermarket chain store as easily as they can buy time for their pay as you go cell phone. There is no restrictions, they aren't behind a counter, and nobody is checking IDs to sell it to them.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by sarettah

I spent 2 minutes this morning researhing the actual laws for the U.S. and basically confirmed what I already knew.

This is no law restricting creadit cards or debit cards by age other than what you cited which is that you have to be 18 to enter into a contract.

The actual law dealing with credit cards that started this thread is changing from 18 to 21 to get a credit card without proof of income basically. You can still get one if you have a c0-signer or if you can provide proof that you can pay the bill. So basically anyone with a $10.00 an hour job over 18 that is not encumbered could get a cc.

On credit cards, you can have one at any age if someone makes you a secondary card holder on their card. Now, some banks have policies restricting this by age.

Back when they tried to get Coppa through and had the part in there about using a cc to provide proof of age I knew that it would not work.

'Sides, even on the various consumer sites they warn not to use a cc or debit card as proof of age or identity.

As far as using for payment, a debit card is a hell of a lot harder to charge back on then a cc.


On a cc, you are by law (in the US) limited to like $50.00 of liability on a lost or stolen card. On a debit card there is no such law. There is a "courtesy policy" that some issuers have established that says they will limit the liability but from what I could find there is no legal limit on liability if you lose or have a debit card stolen. So as a form of payment, a debit card is actually probably more secure for the merchant than a cc.

just my two cents of course.

Yes, exactly my point. Debit cards don't fall under the credit card statute for chargebacks, thus making it nearly impossible/not feasible to do a chargeback. So why restrict them? (If you roll back, you'll see that was my original query to you.) The $50 chargeback provision is a function of the credit laws, and not specifically a MC/Visa issue. There is also a mile from limitation on that. (This also gets a bit "fuzzy" when we talk about the internet, because what is the point of sale? Your terminal? The merchant's "store," or the last server to pass the "product?" --But let's not wander off on a tangent here....)


You cite 2 different 18/21 situations.

I was referring to the long standing "local standard for pornography access," i.e. local jurisdictional laws allowing someone to buy playboy/porn vid in a local store, which STILL hasn't been "settled" by the tinternet delivery of the same content. You could still run afoul of those laws, as many in the industry have found out, and we, in the video store found out in the 80's.

The other 18/21 thing is a change in credit card issuance to college students with the fabulous new consumer credit laws that were supposed to help us po' 'mericans so much, and has little or nothing to do with this conversation topic.

And MC/Visa is not above the law. The simple fact is, MC/Visa guidelines, or no guideline, a minor cannot enter into a contract. a "loan," i.e., a credit transaction is a promise to pay back contract. So, regardless of what uncle/parent/sibling "signs" for them before hand, ultimately, the whole thing would get tossed if they were a minor. Now, at the point of sale, if the parent signs, I would bet they would be the one entering the "contract," and the minor's signature would mean nothing.

Again, we are slicing and dicing something that would never reach this point. The bacnk would just do the chargeback, and send you, the merchant, an "F-U" card. They might not even send the card. :-)

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Sorry, but a minor can buy a visa / mastercard gift card at my local supermarket chain store as easily as they can buy time for their pay as you go cell phone. There is no restrictions, they aren't behind a counter, and nobody is checking IDs to sell it to them.

Because a thing is done, doesn't make it binding, or legal. Your argument is specious.
I'm not sure there is case law on "phone card sales, and how it applies to a contract," but knowing our government, I'll bet it's covered in the patriot act?