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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 28 2003, 03:37 AM Look ... I'm still waiting to see something Alex ever posted that was "anti-American." As I pointed out in an earlier post, IMHO he's taken any number of positions that seem to me no different than a typical American liberal. Now, if you are the sort of moron who thinks that U.S. liberals are antiAmerican, then you're not worth the time it takes to talk to, so you can join Sword and quit reading now.
Hell - I spent ten years in the U.S. Navy and I get accused of being anti-American all the time, sometimes here and quite often on other boards. Why, according to "dozenchickens" I'm a pansy liberal loser who hates everything and has nothing to live for - and I'm almost as proud of that as I am of being called a communist by Torone.
There are a lot of people on the boards these days who take disagreeing with American policy as being antiAmerican. There are a lot of people on the boards these days who start hysterical shouts of antiAmericanism if you are critical of the Bush Administration. There are a lot of people on the boards these days who get their underwear tied in a knot screaming about antiAmericanism if you suggest there may not be a connection between Saddam and alQaida.
What some people seem to regard as "antiAmerican" to me seems like nothing more than debate and an alternative opinion. It ranges from intelligent to moronic.
I haven't agreed with a lot that Alex has posted - but the suggestion that he is somehow antiAmerican because of what he's posted is absurd, IMHO.
According to your philosophy, even bin Laden is not really not Anti-American...
Anyhow, I have a solution to much of this blather...
End ALL foreign aid, pull out of the UN (thereby ending its' existence); and ask the other countries of the world to pay up front for the protection they receive from us. It is sort of a 'user pays' setup. Sort of like the many parks, etc. that we taxpayers pay to build and support and still have to pay to visit.
Originally posted by Torone@Mar 2 2003, 08:56 AM According to your philosophy, even bin Laden is not really not Anti-American...
I guess Pd's frequences to people on the right as morons doesn't qualify as name-calling, since it comes from a self-described Liberal...?
Torone ... there are some ideas that I consider moronic. People who question my patriotism are morons at best. People who make statements suggesting that I somehow don't consider binLaden as anitAmierican prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they may be a moron.
The suggestion that liberals are part of a vast communuist conspiracy is a moronic idea. The assertion by reactionaries such as Ann Colter that liberalism equates to being a trator is equally moronic.
The suggestion that everyone opposed to a war with Iraq is a communist/socialist is an extremely moronic idea. The idea that the U.N. is interfering with our soverignty may not be moronic (but it's close) - it just proves somebody doesn't have a clue what soverignty is.
Characterizations of every European country as socialist which is really communist is moronic.
I don't instantly characterize conservatives as morons. They have to earn that designation. Reactionaries, just like communists, socialists, and members of PETA, do so very quickly.
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Originally posted by Torone@Mar 2 2003, 10:11 AM While you're at it, do the same for an organization called 'Not In Our Name', which also sponsored a number of the rallies. If you want, I'll make that a dare; because I've heard their representatives state who their backers were.
Torone,
What dirt do you have on "Not In Our Name'?
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Well, well, well ... A.N.S.W.E.R. does seem to be quite the group. I didn't realize Vietnam Veterans Against the War still existed, and had no idea anyone still talked about Leonard Peltier or Mumia Abu-Jamal. I really didn't know that those sort of folks were still around - but since the Klan and the American Nazis ain't gone, and the Birchers seem to have become mainstream Republicans, it doesn't come as a terrible suprise.
"Not in My Name" does seem to be cut from somewhat the same cloth, even if quite not so far to the left of the bolt.
Which of course, proves NOTHING. That the strident wackos of the lunatic left and the limosine liberals like Asner and Baez are against the war isn't exactly startling news. That their names appeared as organizers of the antiwar marches is even less suprising. That does not mean that the entire antiwar movement consists of communists and socialists and whatever the hell other kind of wackos people those groups.
Torone, in the 1940s and 1950s - years before it became popular - the Communist Party of the United States was active in issues of racial justice. Does that mean that the civil rights movement was a communist plot? Some of the most violent militia groups are very strident defenders of the 2nd Ammendment - are all opponents of gun control militia members? It fits your logic, does it not? I saw on the news the other day where the good old KKK wants to hold a rally in Augusta during the Masters Golf Tourney to support the club's right to exclude women - does that mean that the KKK is behind the Master's stance?
Name calling? Bud, if you think being called a moron is worse than being accused of being a communist or of being considered unpatriotic, I can understand why you are offended - but I don't see much difference. Liberals and communists sometimes take the same positions on things - that does not mean that liberals ARE communists. Conservatives and facists sometimes take the same position on things - that does not mean conservatives are facists. Some of the arguements you make about the U.N., for example, could be taken verbatim from the texts of the KKK or the militias that spawned Timothy McVeigh. Can I use your logic to infer you are KKK or a militia member? That's the simple minded logic of the extremist.
I don't have to prove that I'm not a Marxist, Tailgunner ... those days are long gone, and those theories and tactics have long since been discredited. I am to an American Communist what you are to an American Nazi - that is, we support some of the same ideas without coming close to buying the whole package. I'm sorry if you refuse to see that.
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Pornodoggy, I have learned a very important lesson here on Oprano in the last month or so:
Just like a family gathering, it is best not to discuss religeon or politics.
There are a few people on the extremes of each argument that are so far off the end of the spectrum that they are not able to see the "gradients" at the other end of the scale - the angle is too severe. When you get down low enough, it is hard to see the forest for all the trees.
I ain't a communist either - but I can sure understand how certain people can think it - they view is obscured by the people clustered around the center (as they see it) like Limbaugh and Falwell. I am not name calling, I am not finger pointing, I am just pointing something out that the actions of all involved have come to show.
Like I said, discussing certain issues just isn't going to be productive for anyone - and actually drives wedges between people and lowers the value of oprano as a whole. So I opted out. You aren't going to change anyones opinion here, so don't hurt yourself trying.
Alex
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Thank you for your concern, Alex, but Tororne and I have been down this road before, and will again. Momma told me never discuss politics, religion or sex - and I pay about as much attention to that as I do most of what momma told me.
But "hurt myself trying?" I'm not sure what you mean by that. I believe there is an Oprano pearl out there that suggests it not wise to take anything said on a messageboard too damn seriously - and I never do. In "real life" I have several close friends who consider Rush Limbaugh a pretty smart fellow, even if he is a little too liberal. So if your concern is that I become to personally invested in the discussions of politics, that isn't going to happen.
I've sometimes wondered if it could end up hurting me business wise - if I run the risk of alienating a contact somewhere down the line that I may need, or that my opinions will preclude us working together for our mutual benefit sometime in the future. I'd like to think that people are more mature than that - and I do believe that most people are - but I'd be a fool not to acknowledge at least the possibility that's true. In the end, though, I'm not too concerned with that either ... I've never lived my life that way, and ain't gonna start now.
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But "hurt myself trying?" I'm not sure what you mean by that. I believe there is an Oprano pearl out there that suggests it not wise to take anything said on a messageboard too damn seriously - and I never do
Actually, it really comes down to this: 99% of what is said on a message board goes by unremarked later in life... we run at the speed of light here, and what happened last month is already long gone... but just like a healed cut, there are things that always remain to remind you - people don't forget, they just are actually polite enough not to mention things. But those things do change their opinion of ya.
Politics and religeon are two places we all pretty much differ, and where many people have very firm and unshakable beliefs / opinions. There is no upside to back and forth on it, only downside. the polite people above will judge you later with your comments.
So, like I said, why hurt yourself? You have put out a good version of your opinions, I pretty much understand them (don't agree with all of them, but that is kewl) - and I am sure everyone else who will every understand them does. No upside from here on out...
Alex
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Originally posted by Torone@Mar 2 2003, 09:33 AM Anyhow, I have a solution to much of this blather...
End ALL foreign aid, pull out of the UN (thereby ending its' existence); and ask the other countries of the world to pay up front for the protection they receive from us. It is sort of a 'user pays' setup. Sort of like the many parks, etc. that we taxpayers pay to build and support and still have to pay to visit.
good idea torone ...
if that happens, i predict it will be around 5 years before the world gangs up on america and the UN starts discussing the concept of disarming america of their nuclear weapons. you'd be fucked in no time! don't underestimate what many other countries do to help america maintain their position as top dog. you might be important, but your not THAT important.
but hey, go ahead, i'd love to turn you away as a refugee to my country!
Originally posted by Torone@Mar 3 2003, 04:27 AM
you missed part of the point...If the US pulls out of the UN, the UN ceases to exist. We are their main source of funds, as well as their main source of military power. Also, you don't think that any other country being armed well enough to threaten us would be acceptable, do you?
"we" are their main source of funds?
"we" did not pay our bills there and at one point owed around
$1,000,000,000.00 in debt to the UN if i am not mistaken.
Originally posted by cj@Feb 28 2003, 03:41 AM you jumped on the bandwagon and proved you hadn't done any prior reading on what our discussion was about or what my posts are responding to. you are trying to make this about war on iraq or what the world hasn't done for america or whatever other crap your going on with ... go discuss that with your fellow ignorants somewhere, my perspective is wasted on you, and so is that of PD and TheOtherSteve.
They seem to have more patience left though so carrie-on ...
My goodness.
I browse back through to see what transpired in the last few days and I find this.
CJ, you've just proven unequivocally that you haven't the slightest concept of how to separate debate from personal feelings or attacks.
Therefore, you lose the argument.
I'd be curious to know exactly who "my ignorants" are - but since the last time I asked you a direct question you totally sidestepped it and started slinging insults, I won't expect an answer. Have fun crumbling into a heated mass of anger and emotion... the rest of us "ignorants" will be sitting over here calmly and cooly discussing things if you feel like gathering yourself together.
JR - Fuckin' awesome post.
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If we didn't have this discussion I would have never learned about East Timor. I conclude that pissing is the proper path to learning. Witness that as the piss dies down, the conversation turns to espresso, beer, and popcorn. Personally, I'd rather piss and learn than talk about food and drink.
For the record, you said to me "I find your posts insightful and thought provoking ... but" which is the same sort of technique you refer to above. Should we both retire it or continue on? I kind of like it myself and also thought it clever when you used it - even more clever than the way I used it.
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Originally posted by Colin@Mar 4 2003, 06:56 AM CJ,
If we didn't have this discussion I would have never learned about East Timor.
and if it weren't for watching 5 years of pissing i would know nothing about american politics instead of very little ;-)))
Quote:
I conclude that pissing is the proper path to learning. Witness that as the piss dies down, the conversation turns to espresso, beer, and popcorn. Personally, I'd rather piss and learn than talk about food and drink.
I don't think this thread has fully died down yet but yes, i agree that as with every heated argument there is a calm that follows where (some of) the participants realize how much they almost agreed all along.
Quote:
For the record, you said to me "I find your posts insightful and thought provoking ... but" which is the same sort of technique you refer to above. Should we both retire it or continue on? I kind of like it myself and also thought it clever when you used it - even more clever than the way I used it
retire or continue the technique? or the discussion?
i doubt we could stop it if we tried! LOL
Ignoring this thread has been like trying to look away from a plane wreck. Everyone keeps trying but the carnage continues. I think this thread IS starting to die down. Everyone is starting to get along and we're starting to discuss the thread itself. Reminiscent reflective ruminations killed the posting star.
Anyway - I'm going to read up on North American history today and study my Rand McNally
so Alex can't include me in his list of dumb Americans ["most Americans can't find Canada on a map or understand their systems of government and social services"].
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The hulk of a man with a beer in is hand
Looked like a drunk old fool
And I knew if I hit him right
Why I could knock him off-a that stool
But ever'body they said "Watch out,
Hey, that's Tiger Man McCool"
He's had a whole lot of fights
And he's always come out a WINNER
Yea!, he's A WINNER.
But I'd had myself about five too many
And I walked up tall and proud
I faced his back and I faced the fact
That he had never stooped or bowed
I said, "Tiger Man, you're a pussycat"
And a hush fell on the crowd
I said let's you and me go outside and see
Who's A WINNER.
Well, he gripped the bar with one big hairy hand
And he braced against the wall
He slowly looked up from his beer
My God, that man was tall
He said boy, I see you're a scrapper
So just before you fall
I'm gonna tell you just a little
'Bout what it means to be A WINNER.
He said "Now you see these bright white smiling teeth
You know they ain't my own
Mine rolled away like chicklets
Down the street in San Antone
But I left that person, cursin'
Nursin' seven broken bones
And he, uh, only broke, uh, three of mine
That makes me THE WINNER."
He said "Now behind this grin, I got steel pins
That holds my jaw in place
A trophy of my most successful
Motorcycle race
And each morning when I wake and touch
This scar across my face
It reminds me of all I got
by being A WINNER."
"Now this broken back was a dying act
Of a handsome Harry Clay
That sticky Cincinnati night
I stole his wife away
But that woman she gets uglier
And she gets meaner every day
But I got her, boy
that's what makes me A WINNER
He said "You gotta speak loud when you challenge me son
'Cause it's hard for me to hear
With this twisted neck and these migrane pains
And this big old cauliflower ear
And if it wasn't for this glass eye of mine
Why, I'd shed a happy tear
To think of all you're gonna get
By being A WINNER."
I got ar-th-rit-ic elbows, son
I got dislocated knees
From pickin' fights with thunderstorms
And chargin' into trees
And my nose's been broke so often
I might lose it if I sneeze
And son, you say you
still wanna be A WINNER."
"Now you remind me a lot of my younger days
With your knuckles a-clenchin' white
But boy, I'm gonna sit right here
And sip this beer all night
And if there's somethin' that you gotta gain or prove
by winnin' some silly fight
Well, OK, I quit, I lose
You're THE WINNER."
Oh, I stumbled from that barroom
Not so tall and not so proud
And behind me I still hear
the hoots and laughter of the crowd
But my eyes still see and my nose still works
And my teeth are still in my mouth
And you know, I guess that
Makes me THE WINNER.
Colin, nothing short of a full frontal labotomy would dumbyou down enough to not know where Canada is... :-)
Part of this thread dying down and people being "calm" is that some of us refuse to get dragged back into the mud for another round. I have bit my tongue a few times along the way, deciding that there really isn't a benefit to saying what I really wanted to say. Deciding not to discuss politics in these circumstances has been a real plus, not a negative.
It's much more enjoyable that way, I think.
Alex
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I love debates....I can't help but express my opinions...hehe...it's in my nature.
But what good is a debate where everyone agrees? Without opposite views the world (and debates) would be BORING!
As CJ said, debates aren't about winning or losing.....they are mostly about the spectators...the debatees being able to present their position in the best way to the spectators, in order for them to get the most well-rounded idea of the issues.
But debates are nothing without correct information. And, as we've seen on the board, many of us (including me) didn't have all the information in order to make an informed decision on where we stood.....hence, the learning begins.
I think we ALL learn in a debate....and I love to learn....so I guess that's why I love debates so much.
I had no idea about East Timor either.....
Can someone pass me a mocha decaf? Espresso gives me the jitters.
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I've never won a debate in my life. I've never convinced anyone by the end of a conversation that I was right and they were wrong. I have, however, lost debates. I have admitted by the end of a debate that I was wrong. Winning is not a goal I am interested in. Losing is.
In 1996, I had the good fortune to teach a high-school debate class. One day I split the class into two groups at random. One was to argue for the legality of marijuana, the other that it should be illegal. It was a good debate and both sides made many excellent points. At the end, I asked them what their real opinion was. Seemingly miraculous, every student that had argued for it's legality was "pro" and every student that argued against was "con", even though the groups were chosen completely at random. Everyone claimed to have held their opinion all along.
I concluded the class with "there is your lesson for today".
Last edited by Colin at Mar 4 2003, 12:37 PM
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HAHAHA, what a GREAT class!! And very revealing....
Soo, in the end, what did that class mean to you? What did you learn about debating? (other than the obvious) Did it change the way you debate? How you see debating? Did it ultimately negate the act of debating for you?
Very intriguing indeed....
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Originally posted by gigi@Mar 4 2003, 12:45 PM HAHAHA, what a GREAT class!! And very revealing....
Soo, in the end, what did that class mean to you? What did you learn about debating? (other than the obvious) Did it change the way you debate? How you see debating? Did it ultimately negate the act of debating for you?
Very intriguing indeed....
Great question. I think I've learned much more from messageboards than I ever learned previously. We are all experts here!
For me, THE important question is "Why debate?"
To appear clever, to jostle in some strange mysterious pecking order, to win?
None of these things are worth anything in the end. They don't make you a better person and you probably can't win anyway. The whole point about a good debate is that two people have strong beliefs and strong reasons for them. Debating will usually solidify our resolve. It seldom weakens it. I think we are all familiar with having a knock-down, drag-out debate with someone and then thinking "what is WRONG with them?" Over a long period of time though, we sometimes slowly start to realize that some of what they were saying actually made sense.
So for me, I want to start down that process as soon as possible. Quickly ask .. Why do they think that? Where are they coming from? Are they less biased than I? Did they fluster me?
Frustrate me? Is my knowledge weak? Did they surprise me?
For me, the most exciting part of a debate is when someone presents something, either a morsel of knowledge or a thought, that I haven't heard before. At this point I must ask "Does this change my opinion"? If yes, I win. That was the goal in the first place. If no, I learned something anyway. I win again.
I think it is imperative, even noble, to present one's best argument and defense. Anticipate your "opponent's" best moves if possible. Only in this way will your "adversary" pull out all the stops and maybe somewhere find a backdoor into your mind.
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For me, the most exciting part of a debate is when someone presents something, either a morsel of knowledge or a thought, that I haven't heard before. At this point I must ask "Does this change my opinion"? If yes, I win. That was the goal in the first place. If no, I learned something anyway. I win again.
My goal isn't necessarily changing my opinion....but rather to maybe learn a few things I didn't know before. Whether it changes my opinion, or solidifies my current one I'm still a winner. [and I'm guessing that's what you were saying all along...hahaha]
Sooo, now that we've changed this debate thread into a thread about debating.....I think we should get back to the debate!!
Now....where were we?
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"carrie, you'll notice i've not started off any of my posts with 'i like you but ...'"
And this should impress me (or not) why?
"i've seen you around for about a year or so, we've conversed once before on netpond where you also jumped on me for a comment without reading what I was commenting on - seem familiar? I notice you do it regularly in your rhetoric, on all controversial subjects. I can't remember what subject it was in this case but it forms my opinion of you and your first post in this thread. "
Fascinating - the subject was so important that you can't even remember what it was, yet you find it relevant to basing the rest of your opinions, and your basis for argument, on.
"ummm ... which is it sweetie? are we discussing or arguing?"
The rest of us are discussing. You, however, seem to be arguing.
" I can do both"
I have yet to see evidence of this.
"now, onto addressing your points, because as little respect as I have for you, I do agree that there have not been any valid points addressed so far in our banter back and forward, just insults ... so, which questions did I sidestep?"
No dear, you were the one throwing insults, not I. As hard as you may try to bait me into it, I have yet to lower myself to your level.
As for which questions you sidestepped, it would be easy enough for you to browse back and discover this for yourself.
"I didn't see any questions in any of your posts just statements about what the rest of the world aren't doing to help america. "
Yes, it's evident that you haven't taken the time to read any of my posts, it's doubtful you even skimmed them. Yet still you feel the need to reply and throw barbs.
"and YES. i took great offence to your comment "
Congratulations. You have an opinion.
"But no, i don't think you are anti australia. i doubt you know where it is on the map."
Wow. Now that was truly, *truly* an insult worthy of the time it took to type. Really. (By the way, that's called sarcasm. You may want to look that up as well.)
"eagerly awaiting your 'questions'"
Don't bother - I'm not going to. You've exhibited the capacity to read - although the comprehension is questionable - so you're more than capable of finding those questions yourself.
If you want to continue overreacting to imagined insults and trying to find excuses to throw barbs in this and other threads - have fun. Some of us know better than to take what is said on message boards so personally. But hey, if grade-school name-calling is what floats your boat, more power to you. You show your true level of maturity with every attempt, especially when the posts go unanswered.
Which they will after this, because quite simply, "sweetie", you're not worth my time. If I want to hear a conversation based around name-calling and perceived self-importance, I can simply listen to my toddlers arguing over who gets to play with the Gameboy after dinner.
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Originally posted by T-Rav@Mar 4 2003, 01:38 PM i can literally argue one point of view one day, and then the next day argue the other side with equal passion and vigor.
I believe they make medication for that now. You should look into it.
you claim I'm not worth the time to answer the real issues we were discussing in the thread and yet you have time to quote every single line from my post with a reason why you don't have the time to respond!!?!?!?!?
Totally unrelated, but I just realized that I have had more threads named after me in the last 30 days than anyone else on Oprano... if that don't get me further up the "asshole" list nothing will!
Alex
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03-02-2003
Momma told me never discuss politics, religion or sex - and I pay about as much attention to that as I do most of what momma told me.
haha
h34r:
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