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Interesting, Cory.....I've seen you pretty wasted, my friend...a particular argument between us in Phoenix comes to mind. We were both shouting at each other...actually, I believe that's how we met and have loved ever since.
Many of the examples you've given have much to do with owners of companies; and, if they wish to behave as such, then they will reap the benefits or consequences. It is their company. They get to set policy. Going broke or not is their choice.
When a rep, however, crosses lines that anyone with common sense should not cross...that's a different story.
There was a rep who used to be with a particular affiliate program..and pretty high up on the totem pole with this company. Anytime we tried to talk to him, no matter what time of day....he was in pretzel shape and unable to string two words together. When you're drunk, Cory, you get more articulate, if that's possible. See the difference?
When someone represents a company, on the clock or off....and, I'm only talking about shows now....they are presenting the face of said company....this particular person who is gone now.....lost his company business...period.
We've all been drunk; but, throwing up in public into flower pots while representing a company whose dime is paying for your trip...sorry, that's crossing the line...
Anything that reflects negatively on the company, unfortunately, is not always a good thing....whether we judge it or not.
Back in the day, we were more wild. Today, we can't afford to be.
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Originally posted by NickPapageorgio@Apr 26 2005, 07:21 PM I learned my lesson at the show in Florida last year. I got pretty tanked at Circue De Noir and fucked up a conversation that could have been a real booster for me personally. I think drinking and shows really don't mix if you can't control what you're having. To my credit, I was partying with ToyBoy. And there is no middle speed with him. It's either stop or full throttle.
Originally posted by Weg Cory@Apr 27 2005, 09:50 AM ThrobX, I have known you for a long time. I do however respectfully disagree with your view. As much as I agree that this is a business processing transactions like any other business, it is still built around the sex industry, in some cases even a seedy side of the sex industry. I remember my first show, I was absolutely baffled seeing prominent guys in the hotel lobbies picking up trashy hookers and walking up to their rooms in front of everyone. This is an industry whereas parties are often times thrown at strip clubs, or even at brothels in many cases. The threshold for professionalism is more liberal. That said, cases like this will occur with more frequency. What is important is that people still respect certain, more liberal limitations.
Just my thoughts on it.
(ThrobX, can you email me? I would like your icq again...)
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. We're marketing a product, doesn't make any difference to me if it's a pencil or a pussy, we're in the marketing business. The nature of the product should have no impact on our professionalism. Just my opinion, I COULD be wrong. Your mileage may vary, etc. It's cool, of course.
Maybe this will more clearly illustrate my thoughts... Raven makes a good point. If, for example, I, as the owner of my company, choose to get drunk and obnoxious at an industry soiree, any soiled reputation is purely my OWN fault. If, however, my employee chooses to get drunk and obnoxious, then it's THEIR fault, but it ultimately reflects poorly upon ME. That's where I draw the line (income generation aside, that was more a joke than anything).
Originally posted by Raven@Apr 27 2005, 11:26 AM Interesting, Cory.....I've seen you pretty wasted, my friend...a particular argument between us in Phoenix comes to mind. We were both shouting at each other...actually, I believe that's how we met and have loved ever since.
Many of the examples you've given have much to do with owners of companies; and, if they wish to behave as such, then they will reap the benefits or consequences. It is their company. They get to set policy. Going broke or not is their choice.
When a rep, however, crosses lines that anyone with common sense should not cross...that's a different story.
There was a rep who used to be with a particular affiliate program..and pretty high up on the totem pole with this company. Anytime we tried to talk to him, no matter what time of day....he was in pretzel shape and unable to string two words together. When you're drunk, Cory, you get more articulate, if that's possible. See the difference?
When someone represents a company, on the clock or off....and, I'm only talking about shows now....they are presenting the face of said company....this particular person who is gone now.....lost his company business...period.
We've all been drunk; but, throwing up in public into flower pots while representing a company whose dime is paying for your trip...sorry, that's crossing the line...
Anything that reflects negatively on the company, unfortunately, is not always a good thing....whether we judge it or not.
Back in the day, we were more wild. Today, we can't afford to be.
You make great points. This is why I love you
I guess maybe I feel that had he just said he was sorry "under the table," then he would have saved himself a lot of headaches.
I may have defended the actions a little too much. I was just really bothered when he took a shot at her after she never said a word.
Thank you for pointing out how articulate I am when I have been drinking, it has taken years of practice! LOL
The sad fact of life is that despite all the shoulds, oughts and ifs, a decision like this would come down to income & what effect a person's departure would have on that.
Originally posted by Jeremy@Apr 27 2005, 02:14 PM The sad fact of life is that despite all the shoulds, oughts and ifs, a decision like this would come down to income & what effect a person's departure would have on that.
Originally posted by Jeremy@Apr 27 2005, 02:14 PM The sad fact of life is that despite all the shoulds, oughts and ifs, a decision like this would come down to income & what effect a person's departure would have on that.
Oh fucking dog bollocks, just what we needed here , another smart Brit!!!!
This wouldn't even be debateable outside of this industry. However, there will always be those at shows who want to "live the life" as part of playing this game.
This is way out of bounds for me. I cant imagine ever hiring anyone who I could even imagine representing my company at a trade show and behaving in this manner. With that in mind, if he did, he's a fired ass because I obviously misjudged his character.
I would also say that I'm not about to send a kid who I know is unlikely to have been exposed to the level of partying this industry can do, and may not be able to hold his liquor, to a show without someone to stick to him like glue and mentor him a bit. There is some management responsibility as well as personal responsibility.
We've all been drunk; but, throwing up in public into flower pots while representing a company whose dime is paying for your trip...sorry, that's crossing the line...
Grimm was throwing into the pot,
Sig was throwing into the toilet ball...
in 2003 their company made $15,000,000 in revenues
Originally posted by pushpills@Apr 28 2005, 04:32 AM I don't think there's more than 2 people in this thread that haven't done something much "wilder" than the event described.
Originally posted by pushpills@Apr 28 2005, 07:32 AM Getting drunk and getting wild with someone is a good bond! I can think of a few people that I got into business with because we bonded and became friends from a night of drinking and getting nutts.
I would agree.
My only trouble with this particular story is that his "getting wild" involved abusing women...
call me rosy-drguile, but that's innaceptable... throw up whereever you want, I dont give a fuck, pick fights with dangerous people, trash furniture, spend your mortgage on hookers... who cares?
But sexually abusing people? Not so good...
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Originally posted by Raven@Apr 27 2005, 11:26 AM
Anything that reflects negatively on the company, unfortunately, is not always a good thing....whether we judge it or not.
Back in the day, we were more wild. Today, we can't afford to be.
I honestly think this sums it up the best out of all the statements I have seen here - which is why I posted what I did "Depends alot on the various circumstances"
Just getting back into this busines a couple months in and I an tell things are much more political. Back in 97-99 hell you were a tight ass if you weren't partying so hard you threw up in the flower pots Little bit if an over statement but I think you get the point - Parties at conventions were just for that, partying.
Now they are for socializing, making business deals, and representing your company and what they stand for. Not to mention the comapny's ethics by the behavior of their employees. This is a much more corporate business now than it was, and should be treated a such.
Program owners are different in the way that they represent their own financial platform and brand but I was speaking more in terms of hypocrisy / industry bounds / perception. Looking back into this thread, I may well have been better off to not cite it. It led it astray. But the fuel is somewhere, is it not? The perception is what it is for a reason? Therefore, the environment is assumed. If you hire an employee in this industry and send them to a show, they will be exposed to those environments.
My point is, he made a mistake and instead of apologizing, he insulted one of the accusers in a thread.
That is my issue with all this. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not care what people do at shows. However, it should be very clear that although this is a business like other businesses, it still isn't. You don't see girls getting whipped and cummed all over in a Venetian Suite at the Catering convention. Therefore, perception is different as it is shaped by very different marketing schemes. You all can accuse me of being naive to business, but take an opportunity to speak to me in person and I am willing to bet you retract the accusation.
HP, 3 years ago, I would have quoted your post as "dead on," but not today. All the same, no matter what I say in this thread, it will likely appear that I am supportive of idiot behavior, that is just not the case.
I know Dave, the owner of Platinum Bucks real well. He has a great product and staff. That said, I am going to drop out of this thread. I don't feel like bumping it or jumping to conclusions on what may or may not have happened with his employment is helpful to him. At the end of the day, things happen, people move on.
Theres no excuse for someone to get drunk and disorderly...man handle a feel up a woman and then when told to cool it own down talk smack back to the owmans husband. It doesnt matter if its a convention or a house party.
Where Im from its called an instant ass whipping.
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Originally posted by gonzo@Apr 28 2005, 01:10 PM Theres no excuse for someone to get drunk and disorderly...man handle a feel up a woman and then when told to cool it own down talk smack back to the owmans husband. It doesnt matter if its a convention or a house party.
Where Im from its called an instant ass whipping.
Well, I am not all about beating people up, I think he (both husbands involved) did the standup thing. Like I said, I think he should have apologized to her. I think had he done that, nothing would have steamrolled. I also stated that I know her pretty well and that would have been good enough for her. She is a classy girl and a professional.
What "he did" and the extent of what we are talking about now are not really one in the same. The thread meandered a bit. If you are discussing him as an isolated event, that is not the same as your very general thread title. This is why I am weary of posting in threads like this, people tend to not understand the nuances.
I don't have enough time to explain all of that however.
Step back and take a look at the mentality dealt with in this industry. We all read the boards. Getting drunk (the general scenario) hardly matches up to the daily ignorant ramblings I see on chat boards.
Originally posted by Trev@Apr 28 2005, 02:04 PM The fact that it went to two guys toe to toe, shows that something was out of order!
So Cory, say you hit one of the shows with your girl and I cop more than a feel, would “sorry I was tanked” fix it?
I made a clear statement that I was friends with someone on the other side of the issue. I likely have deeper insight into how she felt about it than you do. No offense, I hope, taken by you.
I responded more to the general theme that the thread meandered into. I will however say that Gonzo's thread title did include the "fondling" portion in the sub-title (I just hardly read that).
Again, I don't know how to tell you that I don't support "him" in a way that you can understand. I don't appreciate his actions and clearly stated he should have apologized to her. I am not the type to go on chat forums and talk about how I would beat some ass. It just isn't me. But if "beat some ass" translates into I don't approve, then read it as you wish.
Thread is like this:
1) Guy = isolated issue. I do not agree. Stewie not punching the guy. I agree with him. He handled it like a pro.
2) Theme of thread = General issue of drinking at shows and problems arising. I made a point regarding that.
They are seperate issues IMO. Him saying "sorry" prevents his total industry collapse, it doesn't make him and Vanilla friends. This isn't tough to understand. But that is the absolute best I can explain it to you. It isn't about "fixing" it.
If you fondled my girl at a show, I would have you escorted to the sidewalk. If you tried to attack, I would defend. It sounds like Stewie did the right thing under the circumstances he was put in. But we ALL HAVE OPINIONS.
Not to sound arrogant but I bring girls with me to parties at shows, clubs, bars, you name it. In all my time, I have never had to "beat someone down."
If one of our associates we brought from Australia to a show got drunk, I'd leave him/her at home next time. If it was our affiliate manager, I'd fire him/her.
The shows are where you put your company on show to encourage others to do business with you. We work hard for a good reputation and I would be livid if it got trashed in one night by someone getting drunk and acting foolish. We'd be remembered as the company who did xxx at the xxx show. That's how I think of some of the past events!
It's not a soapbox thing for me. I think if it's your job to be "on" for 3-4 days a few times a year, then that's what you do.
There was a company whose reps got out of hand...really out of hand....details aren't necessary.....and they were summarily rounded up and brought home...and, then told never were they to act this way again.
The warning shot was fired and those who were smart are still with this particular company today.
The others? They're gone.
I agree with you, Cory. Had he owned up immediately and had he been so contrite and had it been a first time offense, maybe he could have kept his job. After all, everyone should be allowed one fuck up, as long as the damage is controllable.
Sometimes, it's not the actual mistake. It's what happens after the mistake. Unfortunately, as you've stated, he compounded his. And, while I'm sure he's a sweetie, the bottom line is the bottom line, which is set by Dave, who owns the company.
I think you also bring up a good point. When I started going to shows, I had to find that level of 'buzz' where I could be nice and loose; but, not ineffective....there are those who can get drunk and still remain 'with it'..and, there are those who simply cannot handle liquor or drugs or whatever the substance is.
I do believe that every rep should have boundaries set forth by the owner prior to the show.....then, should something like this happen, the rep, at least, has a definition of acceptable behaviour.
Ryan. I was in the biz three years before attending a show, so even in 2000, some of the 'display's were awesome to watch.....
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Originally posted by Peaches@Apr 27 2005, 02:34 PM With my constant drunken orgies, I fear my lifespan in this industry is limited
I apologize for all the penises and boobs I've grabbed over the years.
Don't worry, Peaches. It's all on tape, preserved for posterity.
I would have ascertained the situation and based my decision on whether there were extenuating circumstances, monetary considerations, and the employee's attitude after the fact.
I have been known to drink at shows. I certainly hope I'm not perceived as one of the obnoxious ones; but, as others have pointed out, it's my company and it is my choice as to how people 'see' me.
I don't know whether or not I would have fired the person in question. I certainly would have talked to him, extensively; and, most likely, placed him on probation, if I sent him to another show.
There would have been a public apology across the boards, also, to anyone and everyone he may have offended with his behavior.
I don't attend all that many shows...but I'm 'on' from the minute I arrive in the city where the show is being held. Actually, I tend to be aware even from the airport where I'm catching the last leg of the flight in, that I 'may' run into some industry people also travelling to the show.
And I stay 'on' up until I land in LA on my way home, cos you just never know where you're going to run into 'work' people.
Even tho I drink, I don't take it to the point where I lose control of my faculties (ok perhaps excepting that one night that ScottPB plied me with illicit substances and I ended up standing in the foyer of the Venetian talking to Sykk and Punky, swaying the whole time).
I LOVE attending the shows (hint hint Bill, time I did another one )...but I'm always aware that despite the fact that they're enormous fun, and a huge adrenaline high, they are still, and most importantly, work, and my behaviour should reflect that, from beginning to end.
Originally posted by Trev@Apr 28 2005, 05:04 PM The fact that it went to two guys toe to toe, shows that something was out of order!
So Cory, say you hit one of the shows with your girl and I cop more than a feel, would “sorry I was tanked” fix it?
Again, I dont know the specifics here.
But I think anyone will tell you I'm not a violent person normally. However, I am protective. If it were my girl, I dont think anyone is gonna get a second ass grab in.
If I saw it, there would be a confrontation to explain that it wasn't acceptable, and the dude needs to step. I've had to do that before. Fortunately being a big guy and knowing how to "woof up" (southern term), I've never had anyone not realize that I was serious and push it further.
Most normal people stop when you make it clear they've committed an ass kicking offense that they should cease before the ass kicking commences. Those who are so stupid or have partaken in so much modern chemistry as to not be quite that reasonable need to be removed by the club management or hosts before it gets that far. When they aren't, that's how fights start.
In practice, in my old age, when I see those type of storm clouds brewing, I'm likely to exit before trouble starts. There's no business to be done in that environment. And I dont exactly have a party image that I need to protect.
Frankly, I've seen worse from the harassment point at non-adult tradeshows. It's amazing how you get a couple of thousand guys together, away from home and the wife, and their behaviour disintegrates into that of the average frat boy during rush week.
Shit happens, everyone makes mistakes. Hopefully Rinaldo will learn from his, otherwise he'll be another newbie nova. Probably a toss up as to which one at this point, imo.
We can all sit around and say we'd never do this or never do that, or we'd fire someone, tell them to go to rehab, etc. When it comes down to it, every situation is unique and who knows what any of us might do.
As my dear friend Nick is so fond of saying, we have all the morals we can afford. It's not because we're in adult, it's because we're human.
""""As my dear friend Nick is so fond of saying, we have all the morals we can afford. It's not because we're in adult, it's because we're human. """"
Nice!
As Jesus said , "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
((what is omitted is that immediate following this remark a huge rock flew out of the crowd and twatted the poor victim of the stoning in the head resulting in Jesus sighing and saying "Sometimes Mum you piss me right off!" ))
Frankly anyone who knows me is aware that if I was the husband I would have smacked the shit out of him.
I think people that grew up in either Europe or Aussie are far more likely to react with violence than North Americans.
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Apr 29 2005, 02:56 PM I think people that grew up in either Europe or Aussie are far more likely to react with violence than North Americans.
Sadly it's true... sometimes a good kicking works better than shouting and balling...
Originally posted by *KK*@Apr 29 2005, 04:08 AM Frankly, I've seen worse from the harassment point at non-adult tradeshows. It's amazing how you get a couple of thousand guys together, away from home and the wife, and their behaviour disintegrates into that of the average frat boy during rush week.
Ditto. Heck, the MCI and Sprint conventions make our shows look tame!
Bottom line - we've all made mistakes. Sometimes we could apologize and everything's fine, sometimes we get more severe ramifications.
But as far as the poll is concerned, everything is, and should be, done on a case by case basis.
With all due respect to both Nick and KK, morals don't have anything to do with this situation.
This is business, pure and simple; and, if an employee acts in a way that can cost the company current or future revenues, then the situation calls for an action, be it a lecture or a firing.
alli remember seeing was everyone getting along..and lots of fun and laughter from the complaining parties when they were with the said individual....scary how fast some will go for the throat in this business.
anyway, i dont care..i stay far away from content girls for a reason at shows.
Rinaldo is a good kid, mistakes happen..he is still young, we all have a decade on him almost...Hope he makes out ok
Originally posted by Brad Mitchell@Apr 28 2005, 07:50 PM
I have been known to drink at shows. I certainly hope I'm not perceived as one of the obnoxious ones; but, as others have pointed out, it's my company and it is my choice as to how people 'see' me.
You know Brad, you are well known as a rabblerowzing badass. You're always out of control at shows, and your crazy staff and their endless cigar smoking and coffee drinking are just as bad.
LOLOLOL
I always enjoy hanging around with you, Bill, Cory, etc... at shows. Some of the most professional guys around.
Thanks for the thread I actually get a smile on my face the more this gets dragged through the mud.
FIrstly I do not recall grabbing anyone without permission, if any of you go to message boards as often as you obviously seem to do you'd have seen my photos with about 50 women all smiling with their breast exposed blowing me kisses and what have you.
I do not need to harrass women I'm 23 and I'm not hideous.
What seems to have happened is everyone decided to get up on that Horse and talk shit down to me, well everyone has done stupid shit, I have never called anyone out after 3 and a half years of going to shows, I've seen chairs thrown off balconies, people arrested, prostetutes running out of rooms crying, come on. I've apologized to the masses for being drunk, that I have no shame admitting. I have learned my lesson as well.
FIrstly I'm not going to drink like I used to, I thought about it and I really don't enjoy it anyways, you wake up the next day feeling like total shit.
Second, I won't be over exposing myself trying to brand whomever I work for. I was way too far in the forefront and it burned me in the end.
TO those parties involved I'm sorry this lead to a public discussion, I would have preferred a phone call at the very least.
Cory I did apologize both through email and in it's own thread, they accepted my apology for being drunk and for my immature comment in her thread and that is one of the things I truly regret doing.
04-27-2005
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