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Originally posted by Pornwolf@Jul 30 2003, 10:56 PM I don't think many guys would turn down these women. We are talking about the hottest of the hot. You can only be so careful.
And per you, these women file false sexual assault charges....looks like when you play with "hot", you get burned.
If you wouldn't call it rape.....what would you call it then
I'm not going to argue this. it's something too emotional for people to consider it rationally.
my only point was that if you create an agreement to perform act x with somebody, you cant then turn around and scream that cancelling act x half way through the job is the same as the guy forcing act x on you in the beginning..
again, not saying it's ok to continue after a "no", just saying that rape is used to define a sex act that is forced from the beginning.
to me this is more akin to a breech of contract... sexual assault maybe... rape? no.
Not being emotional....I thought I was rather rational actually....lol.
So you agree that a 'wrong' has been commited, even if you don't believe it should be labelled 'rape'. Good to see.
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Originally posted by Pornwolf@Jul 30 2003, 07:18 PM It doesn't make it right, ladies.
Can't argue with that either. :P
My whole point is that these types of cases do not represent the majority. The law must look at the big picture and protect as many people as possible.
And that's a fact jack.
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Originally posted by Pornwolf@Jul 30 2003, 09:56 PM The female predators come with the package.
Pick a different type of woman? hahahaha! The wife in most cases is nothing like the women that are served up on a platter on a daily basis. I don't think many guys would turn down these women. We are talking about the hottest of the hot.
Hmmm... and you choose to associate with these women solely on their looks - and I guess they're there solely for the $
guess you don't need to think really hard about why those situations you described happen
Back to topic - I can't with the exception of incidentally/accidentally causing discomfort/pain imagine a woman asking a man to stop (unless she's a total headcase and you don't know it beforehand)
Sex is really about passion (which I recognize as the finest emotion) and if you're that passionate/worked up about it I don't see/hear stop going on EDIT - actually quite the opposite
I think Hooper has a very good point with
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not saying it's ok to continue after a "no", just saying that rape is used to define a sex act that is forced from the beginning.
Difference between rape and sexual assault
Last edited by Vick at Jul 30 2003, 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by Pornwolf@Jul 30 2003, 09:32 PM Experience. Seeing these cases firsthand. Knowing a lot of the women beforehand. If you haven't been to the Superbowls, the prizefights or even with other basic rich people in your podunk area that have lots of women... please reserve your comments.
Well, I'll tell you what. I will not only concede that you are much more of a playa than me, I'll even throw in your dick is bigger. Somehow, I suspect you would find that important.
That being said, none of the "basic rich people" (including professional athletes) I have known have ever been accused of rape - falsely or otherwise. And my range of acquaintences would suprise some folks - although they are admitedly short on professional basketball players.
IMHO, for every false accusation of rape by a money-grubbing groupie out to scam somebody, you've got ninety-nine prima-donnas who regard women as objects, cannot possibly conceive of the idea that someone would say no to them, or flat out don't care because daddy (or daddy's brewery, their agent, their business manager, or ???) will bail them out of it.
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Yes, compared to you I guess I might be a 'playa' and my cock is probably bigger. I don't think that's important but I know quite a few women who do.
That said, I will agree that most of these guys are primadonnas. I have never seen any of these guys force a woman to do much of anything. I've seen tons of women get sent out of a room because aren't doing anything but that's as far as it's gone. The thing is, these guys know as soon as one gets sent out another one will takes her place. Instead of raping someone they are more likely to pay a prostitute which they do quite often believe it or not. The reason being, it's hard for a woman to try to set you up if she accepted money. $200-$3,500 is well worth it considering the things at stake.
And, no, none of the guys that I know do things because someone will bail them out. That's a different mentality that's kind of reserved for rich ivy league spoiled boys than entertainment and sports folk.
Enough said abut that.
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GiGi said:
The law must look at the big picture and protect as many people as possible.
Do you think that will ever happen? I don't. I see this issue remaining like it is. Men are guilty when this goes to court unless some kind of highly obvious evidence comes along. If it's a her word against his she will win everytime and no matter what the actual crime, sexual assault won't be the title, it will always be called rape if the woman says it is.
Originally posted by Pornwolf@Jul 30 2003, 09:13 PM Men are guilty when this goes to court unless some kind of highly obvious evidence comes along. If it's a her word against his she will win everytime and no matter what the actual crime, sexual assault won't be the title, it will always be called rape if the woman says it is.
The statistics I posted paint quite a different picture:
If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.
If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.
If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.
If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.
So, even in the 39% of attacks that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.
Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists—1 out of 16— will ever spend a day in jail. 15 out of 16 will walk free.
Hmm... I guess there's no real way of deciding what's going on without sitting in every courtroom and eyeballing the perp and the victims.
More women need to report the crime. It sounds like the ones that don't report it are the ones who it has happened to without a doubt and need to bring the guy to justice (or something). I still think justice is best served by male members of the females family. h34r:
It's really easy for people to sit back and say "women should report it". Or, say "let the law handle it". You see so many victims out there that people look at them like it's thier fault, they shouldn't have worn this, or they shouldn't have said that... It's embarrassing, humiliating and feels like being victimized all over again, especially when the perp walks!
So tell me, if you were just leaning over a table, minding your own business, and this huge ogre looking dyke bitch shoved what feels like a 2 litter bottle up your ass, would you report it?
Perhaps you would, I don't know. But, I am sure you would be reluctant.
Originally posted by Pornwolf@Jul 31 2003, 12:16 AM Hmm... I guess there's no real way of deciding what's going on without sitting in every courtroom and eyeballing the perp and the victims.
More women need to report the crime. It sounds like the ones that don't report it are the ones who it has happened to without a doubt and need to bring the guy to justice (or something). I still think justice is best served by male members of the females family. h34r:
You really are a piece of work....
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Hmm... I guess there's no real way of deciding what's going on without sitting in every courtroom and eyeballing the perp and the victims.
You obviously don't consider the statistics above relevent....sad.
I understand your experience in the past has jaded you.....but what you are missing is that those cases are not the norm.
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More women need to report the crime. It sounds like the ones that don't report it are the ones who it has happened to without a doubt and need to bring the guy to justice (or something).
Based on the statistics above.....Would you be so willing to report it when there is a 50/50 chance that the perp will even be arrested? Would you be so willing to go through the hell of reliving the nightmare in court when there is only a 17% chance the perp will end up in jail?
These stats show there no motivation for victims to report these crimes.
Maybe this new law will help change these statistics in the future, thus empowering women and giving them some hope that justice will be served.
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coming in late on this topic but a few thoughts come to mind.
Pornwolf... if your sister or wife was raped or just having cheating sex which you say is okay to you... and wanted the guy to stop and he wouldnt (like cj said the condom broke and she didnt want to be pregnant with his child) would you be so reluctant to believe that she wanted him to stop and he said FU bitch I am already started?
Of course there is grey areas... somehow I doubt that the heat on a famous person or sports person is going to be any greater because of this new part of the rule. Kobe looks very innocent, sad and in the very least sorry (if he even did do this) We cant sit in judgement on a publicized case there is no way.
There was a much publicized case in my city of a man who came home drunk to his wife... they fought and his way of winning the arguement was to stick a broom handle up her ass and another handle in her pussy while she was restrained on the floor. I imagine she said no. Then he pulled out one of those and fucked her. I imagine she was still saying no.
I suppose that because she was married to him and she often had consentual sex with him that he had the right to treat her that way? Even if all he did was fuck her when they were arguing and she said no. Thats rape. Sorry.
The media that reported on the case said that the man repeatedly said he did this and made comments like "just send me to jail already" in a whinny voice meant to make her feel sorry for him (obvious emotional manipulation) AND better still all of his family screamed and shouted to her about how she was ruining so many lives. Right. The man had nothing to do with any of it LMAO
You see there is always two sides to a story. These family members actually stood up for this man. They thought she should have dealt with this another way so that he would not have to go to jail. I wonder... maybe she should have killed him? Maybe the family would feel better then.
There was a random attack case here in Vancouver where 4 teenagers attacked a lady while she was taking out her garbage. Each of them had their turn with her.
Turns out.....she had AIDS. Now THAT is the most ironic form of payback I've seen yet.....
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No, gigi ... pornwolf at least seems to assure us that only POOR men rape women, and only rich men are the victims of "women [who] are ... conniving bitches who will use this law to 'get back' at men."
JR, I don't agree with your point about this "creating" a gray area. The gray area has existed forever, and this law attempts to eliminate at least part of it by taking a way the "well, she said yes first" defense.
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Jul 31 2003, 03:00 PM JR, I don't agree with your point about this "creating" a gray area. The gray area has existed forever, and this law attempts to eliminate at least part of it by taking a way the "well, she said yes first" defense.
Geez, I almost wrote a book when all I really wanted to say was what you said here in 2 sentences...lolol. :P
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Originally posted by JR@Jul 31 2003, 04:00 PM but it seems to me on the surface that this law creates a HUGE gray area. we can have sex, it can be consensual, we can have fun... and after the fact, you can say "i said no" right before he climaxed and he pumped me a few more times... and thats rape.
what can be more gray than that? no struggle? no evidence of rape? not only that but we are talking about consensual sex taking place. what does does it mean to "change your mind"? what is the code word where each party knows it just went from screwing their brains out and having a good time to "rape"?
of course that's not going to be able to be proven in a court of law, so no, that case would probably get dismissed.
if the girl had bruises, scratches, pulled out hair, was bleeding etc, because she struggled (making the sex act a violent act without consent - legally defined as rape) then this would start to form a case.
but no matter how many laws like this are brought in to try to protect women, the burden of proof still lies with the victim to 'prove' the act became non-consensual. She has to convince the jury she isn't a slut, explain her relationship with the victim, describe the consensual sex act, and convincingly explain to a mixed jury why she changed her mind or what made the act become non-consensual ...
even after going through this process ... well look at the stats gigi posted.
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if a guy and girl are shitfaced and their are screwing thier brains out and its totally consensual... and the girl says half heartedly "i changed my mind" - thats rape?
of course not, she would get slaughtered by a jury and/or a defense lawyer.
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what is scary about something like this is that there seems to be no burden of proof. it does not add clarity to anything that i can see. it creates a nightmarish gray area on top of what already is often a pretty questionable situation.
not at all, the burden of proof has ALWAYS been with the woman. Pornwolf made a few comments that i couldn't even be bothered scrolling backwards to copy regarding how women always get their way - i'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what kind of lifestyle one must be living to truly believe that.
Pornwolf made a few comments that i couldn't even be bothered scrolling backwards to copy regarding how women always get their way - i'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what kind of lifestyle one must be living to truly believe that.
Well, perhaps it's just that he's young at heart - some attitudes remain that kinda remind me of locker room about chicks in high school.
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You guys/girls reactions to my comments are almost as bad as the TGP kids when spam is mentioned. I did not say all cases were unfounded, just some are, as all of you agree. What I did say, and I mean wholeheartedly, is a way higher percentage of cases involving wealthier people are unfounded.
If it were my sisters in a rape situation I would still look at the facts and the person and look deep into their eyes. The truth would be apparent and it would be handled accordingly. If it was the guys fault he would be handled without legal interference.
It's hard to have these conversations much like religious and political conversations.
You guys/girls reactions to my comments are almost as bad as the TGP kids when spam is mentioned.
Uh ... maybe the reaction you are getting to your comments has more to do with WHAT YOU ARE SAYING rather than the audience you are saying it to. I think your premise - that a higher percentage of cases involving wealthy people are unfounded - is bullshit. There are a lot more things involved in "class" than the amount of money in a wallet, bank account, trust fund or portfolio - and true class don't follow socioeconomic lines at all. So for every gold digger that your friends have encounterd I'm quite sure there are MORE self-centered little pricks who have difficulty believeing that anyone could possibly be serious when they are saying NO to them.
BTW ... if, in fact, you are familiar with several of these cases, then you or your friends need to take a SERIOUS look at the kind of people you are running around with.
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Originally posted by BradShaw@Jul 30 2003, 11:20 AM I get no all the time, then keep going. I read women like that. What woman does not want a man to take control.
There's control, hot savage- "Oh my god no, no, baby" and then "stop you fuck."
I think someone should be able to tell the difference and if you're not sure just stop for a moment and say, "Are you sure?"
You can always resume, just might take longer.
In BDSM (you've probably heard this before) we use something called, "safe words". This way you can scream, cry, plead, etc. and the action will NOT stop unless you use that normally non-sexually word. It could be something like "snow" or "mailman".
Sometimes what makes a hot scene is the expressions, the taboo nature of it. I can see why it might be hard for someone to stop while directly involved but the law is the law and no should mean no.
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Originally posted by JR@Jul 31 2003, 04:00 PM if a guy and girl are shitfaced and their are screwing thier brains out and its totally consensual... and the girl says half heartedly "i changed my mind" - thats rape?
Next thing you know they'll pass a law prohibiting people from having sex under influence, automatically making any man who has sex with a drunk woman a rapist.
Originally posted by LittleC@Aug 3 2003, 09:25 AM Don't you guys in USA have somthing called lie detector ???
This would also be a very usefull tool in our business !
Are you shaving ?
Do you pay your models ?
Do you abuse women ?
=====================
Wouldn't that be a wonderful concept? To cut to chase and get right down to it. No bullshit, no lies, no control issues.
Now that would be a perfect world.
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Originally posted by Hooper@Jul 30 2003, 06:51 PM
my only point was that if you create an agreement to perform act x with somebody, you cant then turn around and scream that cancelling act x half way through the job is the same as the guy forcing act x on you in the beginning..
again, not saying it's ok to continue after a "no", just saying that rape is used to define a sex act that is forced from the beginning.
to me this is more akin to a breech of contract... sexual assault maybe... rape? no.
this is how i feel exactly. i agree its wrong. i agree that a women should have the right to withdraw consent (which is the intent of the law) and i believe that in doing so, the male should stop asap.
but "rape" - i dont agree with that. especially so considering that its almost impossible to prove, has left no signs of physical abuse or forced intercourse, witnesses or other forensic evidence etc.
i also fail to see how getting tackled in the park, beaten and stripped naked and getting screwed in the ass in the most brutal way, is somehow on some level as two people having consensual sex and one of them saying at some point "i have changed my mind"
07-30-2003
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