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Legacy Archived Main BoardBusiness chat and general industry chat. All participation is welcome. Dont post your fucking spam here.
Far-L... I think you definitely are a hypocrite on this issue... I called you on your silence over R-n settling.. and you were just fine with it!
In fact You and a tide of other people wanted to shout me down when I said R-n had shafted you and now everyone else would be forced into the position of having to settle... Why didn't you complain about CE settling like you are about Ken?? Money involved for you was it?? Business decision to shut up that time maybe?
I am sure your initial intentions were good and i applauded you at the start.. but you corrupted your entire effort imho when you wimped out on calling R-n out for the backstabbing scumbag he was.
Why didn't you attack the real person who ruined your chances of putting up a proper bi-partisan industry fight? R-n Shafted your fighting fund when it mattered... YOU didnt want to bitch about that then for your own reasons....... it looks like these guys made a smart business decision that had to be made to me...
The companies with something to protect will all be forced to settle now imho.... I predict many of us wont be sending traffic to those that dont settle by the end of this year.. will be too dangerous.. why would I want to risk being taken out for sending traffic to ARS once Acacia is finished this round and starts attacking all the non-compliant program's traffic sources?
Sorry Marc.. but unless you know something special I can't see you being able to stick to this line of "fight till the death" for long.
Acacia simply divided and conquered... it's over... move on and make sure we dont let it happen next time... I cant wait until R-n starts attempting his version of "VoiceAcacia" .. will you have a fighting fund against that one too Far-L?
Opti - again, Acacia can sue everyone they want but IF (that is one big if) they win, they'll only get ONE settlement, not multiple. You can assume what you like... Affiliates should not be scared to do business with anyone, including companies that have not settled.
Far-L's defense fund took a hit when Ron settled? How is that? I also fail to see how Acacia divided and conquered? CE / Hustler / Vivid do NOT make up a huge portion of this industry... The signing of those 3 companies truthfully doesn't mean much of anything to me or my will to invalidate this patent or defend myself. The good news is I know I'm not alone.
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Oct 6 2003, 08:59 PM Ken, I didn't mean any personal opffense and my post was simply my feelings on the subject.
You know that I respect you more than just about anyone else in this business. The underlying theme to your post and from what I've seen posted from CE was "well, we settled with them but here's what we did for you".
While I understand why Steve and Larry did what was in their best interests and in their spot, I would have done the same thing, I simply see the section I interpret as "look at what we're doing for our affiliates", when this was based on a business decision and not a "we love our affiliates, look at what we've done decision".
I simply felt we were being "spun". Who wouldn't agree to pay $1500 or whatever small fee to ACACIA over spenidng hundreds of thiousands on a drawn out legal battle? I sure as fuck would, but I wouldn't spin it as if I were doing it for my affiliates. That was my point.
This post wasn't all 100% at you either, it was an amalgam of frustration over what's happening in this industry.
You have to udnerstand, every day we seem to be told how much companies are doing for this industry and how they do it out of the goodness of their heart. Just tell it straight, it's a business decision, it'll make Company X this much more money. Just be honest, don't spin us, we've seen it all before.
Again, that's not directed at you personally, just everyone in general who makes a business decision and acts like they are being some sort of savior.
Sorry for not replying sooner, it's my wedding anniversary, so went out for awhile.
SykkBoy,
Thanks man....I knew it wasn't personal. I understand your frustration and feelings on the subject.
Most businesses do make decisions based on what is best for their them and that is what Hustler and Vivid did. However, those decisions, in my opinion will have a positive impact on their affiliates over the long term.
Look at it this way. If they made a bad decision and were financially impacted by it, they might need to pass on the financial impact to affiliates in the form of lower payouts. By settling, they have taken the risk factor away from their affiliates in terms of their potential liability and in terms of possibly having to lower payouts, etc.
Affiliates are a very important part of their business, therefore it IS in theirr best interest to protect them and look after their best interests. Did they make the decision to settle just to help their affiliates? Or course not. But I do think they will benefit from this in the long run.
Originally posted by Marc De@Oct 7 2003, 02:52 PM Opti - again, Acacia can sue everyone they want but IF (that is one big if) they win, they'll only get ONE settlement, not multiple. You can assume what you like... Affiliates should not be scared to do business with anyone, including companies that have not settled.
Far-L's defense fund took a hit when Ron settled? How is that? I also fail to see how Acacia divided and conquered? CE / Hustler / Vivid do NOT make up a huge portion of this industry... The signing of those 3 companies truthfully doesn't mean much of anything to me or my will to invalidate this patent or defend myself. The good news is I know I'm not alone.
It's all IFs.. ie: IF Acacia send me a notice threatening me if I send traffic to ARS what will I do... You or Far-L and every lawyer in the land can tell me they wont win... but will I still be sending traffic to ARS or maybe switching to CE or Hustler? That's the reality of the what will happen.
IFs are what is causing our downfall.. Acacia play the game of IFs far better than our industry has so far..
We are here to make money... lets cut a deal... make money and let the likes of the recording industry fight this if they want... I'm not here to save the world.. just make some cash. imho adult failed to stand together and has already lost this fight. Add it to your list of bottom line costs.. pass it on and lets go forward! Our industry has the first opportunity to cut a deal with Acacia... even if they dont get our market segment they will go for another one... and then we wont be in bargaining position any longer.
As far as those companies proving to be enough of a foot in the door to break the industry resolve.. Maybe I underestimate the ulturism of our industry "leaders".. but once Acacia start scaring the traffic away we will find out for sure.
Persoanlly, I think CE was a major turning point no matter how much $$ they turn over compared to other majors. They shifted opinion and made sure most webmasters wont trust ANY company on this issue..
btw Marc.. you get my highest respect for standing by what you believe in.. but dont get left holding the baton alone :\
Opti - I appreciate your take on this. I can say IF Acacia threatened affiliates sending traffic to 'certain' programs including ARS with a law suit you can bet they would be served as well. I have no problem fighting fire with fire
There still is a great group of companies besides ARS who are not standing down on this. I'm not alone and I doubt ever will be!
I also reflect back to my comment on education. There is a lot of educating that needs to take place so smaller affiliates aren't 'scared' of Acacia. The more educated we are the better decisions we'll make.
What they want to do is safeguard themselves and not spend money fighting the cause. While they hope others who are fighting the cause and paying for it win, so they will no longer have to pay for the licenses.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that Acacia was counting on this to go exactly as it is right now and that they are stronger for each "licensing agreement" they sign.... and settling with them while may be in the interests of the companies that do so, its definately not in the interest of anyone else in this business. in fact, trying to spin it as a positive thing is both insulting and offensive and is a little like making and selling ammunition to the army that is attacking you and saying "we just sell lead and gun powder while creating jobs and growing the economy, nothing more"
Lets not forget the possible negative costs industry wide of these "settlements" and how they come at the expense of everyone who has an interest in fighting and who knows who else.
Originally posted by Ken@Oct 6 2003, 08:47 PM Marc,
As Serge pointed out and you know very well, we can't post our contract.
why?
I have no problems posting ALL the contracts I EVER made in this life,
business and personal, including all real estate transactions, divorce decrees, traffic brokering, my cemetery plot terms, etc, etc, etc....
I am a shaver and a goat fucker, of course, but I don't mind even posting my contract with a Devil!
and to pre-empty your argument about:
"you are piece of shit with no $$$ to compare with LF and Vivid",
I can bet YOU the same million I bet Marc that the value of all my contracts I made over the life time is bigger than the $$ value of the contract between Acacia and the interests you represent....
Here is your chance to grab a mil without writing one single line of code
;-))))))
Originally posted by Ken@Oct 6 2003, 12:30 PM Who do you think will survive and who will be able to make their affiliate payouts, regardless of what comes their way?
My bet is on the europeans and russians - they have shown excellent survival skills thru history, and they are not threaten by all of these US lawsuites.
Acacia´s "posterboy campaign" continues, and I was a bit disappointed to see yet more big names beg for mercy from Acacia... Just go to show you that most who "get big" did not take a journey "full of glory" and "kicking ass", which can be made into a Hollywood movie, but rather a journey which was "full of compromises" and "kissing ass".
Uncompromising people are rare, and I admire them, since they are the ones who will truly "be there" regardless of what comes their way...
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
It's no wonder that the EEC Parliment is thinking long and hard about Software Patents. What will Acacia do to companies working in Europe, will the "licensed" companies insist only those with the license can sell videos?
And as for the argument of settling and moving on until someone else brings this down for us. That is what those who have signed up are hoping. They do not want to spend the money fighting, they want someone else to do and pay for it, then they can carry on as before having paid out nothing. What would be their reaction if they knew that they could not sell videos IF Acacia lost. Nice when you can play both sides with immunity.
I think this has been a test of integrity and some have come out badly.
If you think these patents are solid, then come out and tell us what reasearch was done to reach that decision and the results. There is some confusion over whether the lawyers know if "Double Dipping" is allowed in patent cases. Maybe it's not and therefore is not required to be in a license, or can be put in very easily. Or "Double"Dipping" is legal and a concession was gained.
Or was this just a commercial decision, which was carried out by the Accountants and not the legal department. They would look simply at bottom line and little else.
It will cost xzy to fight
It will cost xyz to settle
Can we still sell videos if Acacia lose?
Can we sell videos if they win?
Morals, ethics and reputation do not show up on a balance sheet.
I do not think Acacia will be in Europe anytime soon, and when/if they come to Europe, then they are in for a surprise, since the european legal system(s) doesn´t quit work the same way as in the US. Heck, Acacia do not even have patents in many of the new countries/states joining the EU next year.
If Acacia or any other patent parasite are looking for a real battle, then come to Europe... their whole legal system is build by socialists
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by Opti@Oct 6 2003, 08:43 PM Far-L... I think you definitely are a hypocrite on this issue... I called you on your silence over R-n settling.. and you were just fine with it!
In fact You and a tide of other people wanted to shout me down when I said R-n had shafted you and now everyone else would be forced into the position of having to settle... Why didn't you complain about CE settling like you are about Ken?? Money involved for you was it?? Business decision to shut up that time maybe?
I am sure your initial intentions were good and i applauded you at the start.. but you corrupted your entire effort imho when you wimped out on calling R-n out for the backstabbing scumbag he was.
Why didn't you attack the real person who ruined your chances of putting up a proper bi-partisan industry fight? R-n Shafted your fighting fund when it mattered... YOU didnt want to bitch about that then for your own reasons....... it looks like these guys made a smart business decision that had to be made to me...
The companies with something to protect will all be forced to settle now imho.... I predict many of us wont be sending traffic to those that dont settle by the end of this year.. will be too dangerous.. why would I want to risk being taken out for sending traffic to ARS once Acacia is finished this round and starts attacking all the non-compliant program's traffic sources?
Sorry Marc.. but unless you know something special I can't see you being able to stick to this line of "fight till the death" for long.
Acacia simply divided and conquered... it's over... move on and make sure we dont let it happen next time... I cant wait until R-n starts attempting his version of "VoiceAcacia" .. will you have a fighting fund against that one too Far-L?
Opti: You are entitled to your opinion.
I don't remember you "calling me out", but allow me to answer to it now.
Personally, I am not happy about CE settling. The one nice thing about it is how can Acacia claim that I am head of conspiracy to prevent licensing when I cannot even convince our marketing partner not to license?
I have taken quite a bit of abuse about our relationship with CE under the circumstances. It sucks but I am not the kind of person to complain publicly about a partner regardless.
Does that make me a hypocrite?
No, it makes me a solid partner.
Besides, CE is not funding our defense at all, nor does their license apply to us. Ron is not my Daddy and he is not going to come to the rescue.
You think I am a hypocrite? How much have you spent protecting the industry from this type of abuse?
Ulitimately, Ron said the "truth will come out and surprise everyone". I can't wait.... but of course I won't be surprised at all.
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Oct 7 2003, 09:38 AM you are 100% right and I withdraw my bet and just sit on the sideline, thanks for letting me to see the light
I am copying, pasting, bolding, italicizing, changing this into a huge font and will send it to everyone I know. I suspect this is the first time anyone has ever said these words to me.
I've got a cunning plan I think....
Its so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a fox!!!
1.) You get a patent on something . Anything. Anything at all
2.) Get a war chest together. Or offer a % to a patent lawyer
3.) Fold it into a publicly traded vehicle.
4.) Protect your patent strongly
5.) Get some people to agree to liscense it for peanuts rather than expend huge sums to fight it.
6.) Watch your stock price rise.
7.) Caaaaching!!!
Far-L is Spike going to be in the office later this afternoon? I would like to talk to him.
Ken, I know you made some snide comments about Oprano as oposed to GFY - I have been to both threads.... I think this one is definately better. Of course I am a little biased.
__________________
Make big money on your Domains! Why wait 40 days to get paid with the other guys? Parked.com pays the most for your traffic, and cuts checks twice a month!
MikeAI: Today is Spike's birthday and he is going to take most of the day off but it would be great to talk before he takes off. If you could call in about half an hour that would be ideal since we are on some conference calls right now (9:15 PST)
Like we keep saying... Acacia is simply the first but certainly not the last that will do this. Don't forget who else says he would like to be in the same business either...
Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 7 2003, 07:25 AM
Ken, I know you made some snide comments about Oprano as oposed to GFY - I have been to both threads.... I think this one is definately better. Of course I am a little biased.
Mike,
Those remarks were directed towards Serge more than the other people posting on Oprano. I think you know that
If Serge opens a door, you can't blame me for walking through it
Make big money on your Domains! Why wait 40 days to get paid with the other guys? Parked.com pays the most for your traffic, and cuts checks twice a month!
Tommorow is cool, would be best in around 10 your time ( noon mine).
michael at hirise dot com
I will send you my cell #.
__________________
Make big money on your Domains! Why wait 40 days to get paid with the other guys? Parked.com pays the most for your traffic, and cuts checks twice a month!
Affiliates are a very important part of their business, therefore it IS in theirr best interest to protect them and look after their best interests. Did they make the decision to settle just to help their affiliates? Or course not. But I do think they will benefit from this in the long run.
----------------
You're helping your affiliates by handing Acacia a bat to beat them with? how are you helping your webmasters by increasing Acacia's power to extort them out of the money they've made?
10-07-2003
h34r:
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