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Originally posted by Dravyk@Feb 14 2003, 05:04 PM If I'm sending traffic to what I think is five different sites, and they are only five different front ends, I am wasting my traffic and putting too much into the same basket. Worse, as Mike says, I might not even know it is the same basket, and that truely does suck!
how is that wasting traffic?
what if one tour or front end didn't "do it" for the surfer? If you're bring paid a flat fee per signup, why would you care? The burden is then upon the program owner...if you were on a partnership, then of course retention would be lower and you'd run into more problems...
It comes to down to the paysite owners (or babenet) providing top notch quality service to avoid problems with dupes...for example, with DarkDollars, we have a lot of the same content in each site, but it's re-arranged differently depending upon the site the surfer enters (so whatever it was that sparked his/her interest is the first thing they see). That's not to say we're going to buy 500 cheerleader pics and say "tada, we have a cheerleader site" If we ffind a duplicate customer, we do this crazy whacky thing called "provide customer service" and resolve any problems. We're constantly getting emails and ICQ's from customers and we actyually pay attention. Maybe this is why our retentions are better than average? Hell, when we had the big content database crash and lost 90% of our content, we kept our members informed and offered refunds and they stuck with us.
Whats all this bitching about duplicate customers? If you've got multiple sites that at least have a good percentage of content that's not all the same, then why would you not want duplicates? It's much easier to sell someone something else than to find someone new to buy...
And I don't know how the Lifetimebucks backends are set up and unless someone can definitively say they are all the same then how do we know?
Originally posted by originalheather@Feb 14 2003, 09:21 PM KK's right. I'd much rather bitch about black boots in her hallway.
At least you know they ain't lonely, living amoungst so many other shoes and boots... it's almost like a boot nature reserve...
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Gotta love it... sure enough, free + a big charge on page two, after they have your name and info (or in this case, Serge's name and email... :-)
Alex
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Originally posted by cj@Feb 14 2003, 08:35 PM Visa's VALID argument for the past 18 months or so has been that the adult industry (and recurring industry's in general) produce the most amount of chargebacks and administration work for Visa. Until visa introduced their 2% rule (where ALL merchant accounts must stay below 2% chargebacks), it was a free for all with visa covering the admin expenses at the end.
After the 2% rule, visa introduced chargeback fines, to cover the cost of the customer support. $100 per chargeback ...
Visa's latest rules include 1% chargebacks, verified by visa and BIG MOTHER FUCKING FINES (right ibill?) ... and i'm sure a host of other rules will come into effect.
Visa has NOT been making a profit off the fees - that's the problem!! If they were, we wouldn't still be getting new rules on a daily basis.
if the 3rd party processors like ibill, ccbill, epoch etc actually bothered to fight the chargebacks with the REAL INFORMATION they gather, we might not have gotten here in the first place.
that's the whole point KK, the sites don't have different content ... why would the program owner want to pay for the same member multiple times to the same backend? great for the webmaster, doesn't make a lot of sense for the program owner. and there is not going to be ANY recurrings if someone signs up for 5 sites, and if there is, it will definately become a chargeback of 5 X $39.95 after a payout of 5 x $45!!
K let me address these to my way of thinking - -which is not wrong nor right, simply my thoughts.
We've had 1% CTC in Visa US well more than a year. We had 2.5 on foreign merch accts for a while but that went away more than a year ago too unless my memory is way foggy.
Visa is not so much concerned with making or losing money on chargebacks as they are concerned with the brand image. The actual % of business that high risk -- not just adult but all high risk -- comprises is negligable to Visa BUT NOT TO THE ACQUIRING BANKS -- Visa is also made up of different groups of banks who are concerned with the amount of money they lose on sheisters that move their own DB's from one bank to another, burning everything in their path like setting a wildfire. At the end of the day, the banks that don't even do high risk suffer from certain high risk client actions. I will not name names here but the clue is a certain ISO under a federal RICO indictment on the west coast... how could that have happened if the gov't did not perceive some intent to defraud all the way down the oh so rosy path???
Why should ISPS's bother disputing chargebacks under the current structure? Site owners do not want to bear the cost and the cost is much more than the admin fee for getting the chargeback the way the system stands right now. If you don't think so, lets take a poll and see how many site owners -- ESPECIALLY the ones processing with companies that do not assess the admin fee to them -- are willing to spend 20 bucks to fight a chargeback with no guarantee of a win -- and given that taking the cb if they do not fight and do get passed the fines is around 15 bucks in most cases -- who's going to do it? Smart money is on not bothering, thus the reason that some of the people with their own merch accts dont bother fighting, they just take the admin assessments and the fines and move on...
Last but not least, are you saying that all the Babenet sites backends are the same or no? I don't know, I havent bothered to look since I don't run a front end for it... if they are the same then Rob and Jack are the ones with the issues, and should be stopping multiple joins from the same surfer if they dont want to deal with the customer service, but if they are not identical then perhaps they'd rather do multiple sales... not my business so I don't know what they are thinking.
Obviously they are doing something to make it work, or else the rest of these people wouldn't be using it...
When are you headed this way again cj, I miss seeing you!
Interesting discussion, but why are we shying away from what is likely the real issue... not that multiple people are promoting the same back end... but rather the fact that they push
100% TOTALLY FOREVER REALLY I SWEAR TO GOSH FREE! NOT KINDA FREE, BUT REALLY HONESTLY I SWEAR FREE FREE FREE WITH NO OBLIGATION!
ok. not really free. you have to give us 40 bucks for the above free membership
Now i'm not necessarily saying i think it's wrong... Buttttt... that is what this discussion was originally about and i'm interested in your opinion about the billing mechanism.
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Quickbuck is paying $100 Per trial join.
I have to assume this isn't being processed in the US.
Alex
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Let's go to the edge of disaster Push the pedal and go a little faster Let's slam into a wall at ramming speed Let's go to the edge of a mountain Jump off and lets start countin' Hit the ground and tell me if it bleeds
join one paysite, get 99 others for free. And each of these "paysites" have 2-5,000 pics in a niche, and then every one of them goes to the same "mega area" consisting of the same 100 plugins.
This sort of explains low rention rates, no? You sell someone a latina site, and it has a couple of thousand pics and a few videos, and that's it... the rest is "general porn" or other non-related niches.
Burn though the couple of thousand pics (maybe 2 visits) and there is no great reason for a niche lover to stay a member, from what I can tell. Does this not also dilute the market and discourage future purchases?
Worse, let's say 5 people are promoting the same content from the same company, with 5 different front ends. Guy buys one, stays a member a month, quits. Tries to find something new, join what he thinks is another site, only to end up back in the SAME niche gallery to the same mega area...
I don't picture him (1) staying a member too long, and (2) being that interested in trying again - his entire view of the net will be "one big scam".
Alex
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Let's go to the edge of disaster Push the pedal and go a little faster Let's slam into a wall at ramming speed Let's go to the edge of a mountain Jump off and lets start countin' Hit the ground and tell me if it bleeds
Originally posted by *KK*@Feb 15 2003, 12:34 AM Why should ISPS's bother disputing chargebacks under the current structure? Site owners do not want to bear the cost and the cost is much more than the admin fee for getting the chargeback the way the system stands right now. If you don't think so, lets take a poll and see how many site owners -- ESPECIALLY the ones processing with companies that do not assess the admin fee to them -- are willing to spend 20 bucks to fight a chargeback with no guarantee of a win -- and given that taking the cb if they do not fight and do get passed the fines is around 15 bucks in most cases -- who's going to do it?
this depends on the site owner or merchant account owner.
a dollar saved is a dollar earned
<_<
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When are you headed this way again cj, I miss seeing you!
aiming for phoenix forum, or definately august internext in florida ;-)
Sorry Dravyk, but given the fact that most everyone buys from the same content producers, same plug in people and the same feed companies, basically ALL paysites are the same and surfers should never join more than one, by your reckoning.
You sell someone a latina site, and it has a couple of thousand pics and a few videos
Alex isn't talking about MY latina site :P
Ok, I saw the opportunity for a shameless plug, I took it!
And just to stay on topic, if sites with cascading processing don't have a way of weeding out multiple joins by the same surfer, they are begging for chargebacks.
We precap information before the surfer even hits the processor (all but the cc#), that's how we catch multiple trial offenders as well. They are sent to a page that tells them that they've already had a trial to this site and are given an opportunity to join for a full membership at a slightly reduced rate.
The precap catches almost 100% of my trial abusers, and I have a ton of them! Since it's a special subid for my site, I can see just how many of them I get a week and it's a healthy percentage! Of course, I am getting these not because I have multiple front ends, but because a goodly percentage of my former members come back for more. I'd guess that about 60% of my current members have joined at least once before, some as many as 10 times.
I've considered offering reduced rates when a user decides to cancel, but haven't done it yet since the odds are high that the guy will be back anyway, that's why it's good to have a members area that's constantly updated and has a shitload of content.
Since the piece of the pie is down to a sliver, the only way I can stay in business is by retaining members and luring former members back.
Originally posted by *KK*@Feb 15 2003, 05:34 PM if they are the same then Rob and Jack are the ones with the issues, and should be stopping multiple joins from the same surfer if they dont want to deal with the customer service
and if they are... then I wouldn't mind seeing Mike's list of which programs are babenet resellers.
if a CC number has been used to signup at piecash.. and babenet wont take it again... Then I don't really want to be mixing up sites from more than one of their reseller programs!
On the other hand... this thread does make it sounds like Babenet do have their processing sorted! Might not be a bad idea to try sending to one of them
Heather, your type of latina site night and day different from the latina sites offered by most mega programs, and I sort of posted that to see if you would enjoy the chance to mention it. Sadly, there is no real easy way for a surfer to tell the difference from the outside...
Funny, this is exactly like the video porn business - most of the money appears to be spent on the BOX, not on the content... which I feel might be a "one time" sales job rather than a relationship builder.
Alex
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Let's go to the edge of disaster Push the pedal and go a little faster Let's slam into a wall at ramming speed Let's go to the edge of a mountain Jump off and lets start countin' Hit the ground and tell me if it bleeds
I can't believe you guys just got hip to the Babenet thing..........
I know most of the companies in question- they do unreal numbers with their current situation.
I am just waiting , very much like the SPAM issue was suppose to break the camels back- to see who starts sending traffic to babenet .............
As I know plenty of people in this bsuiness who fear what they don't understand,
then they themsleves TRY it.
I am not saying I send to babenet or that the model is right or wrong...
I am just saying whn one makes money in this biz...it becomes a monkey- see monkey do scenario.
Truth be told BABENET is getting some great promotion out of this thread...IMHO.
Just my 2 cents :-))
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 14 2003, 04:50 PM Colin, the problem is that this question cannot be answered
A general statement about any thread that goes beyond two posts. When we start discussing questions that are answerable everyone will leave. Both of us included.
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Originally posted by *KK*@Feb 15 2003, 01:10 AM No way Hoop, the discussion was not about free or not free but about whether Babenet was the next Amway or not.
Damn, you're funny, KK. That was good.
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Alex, precisely. The BOX is the problem..they all have a lot of money to do fancy designs that slyly insinuate that there's more in there than there is.
I'm currently in the midst of a redesign, finally with a major designer, my first tour I did myself, the second one (what a disaster!) was supposed to be a more professional version of design elements that I made..
Anyway, I'm planning to have two pro tours now and we'll see if they do better or worse than my original (thanks to my ex I no longer have my psds of my first tour, grrr.)
I try to be as precise as possible in my tour language, stating definitive numbers in the hope that surfers will somehow or other notice the difference, but I'm sure that there are few that do.
Slightly off topic, but I'd like to know how others have been doing with those 30 minute free tours...I think that with my site, seeing the members area would clinch the sale. Not requiring a credit card would help. I'm flailing around looking for sales tools that will work. For a site that has a shitty members' area, the strategy must be different, for mine, I want them in there so that they can be convinced.
Anybody currently running non-credit card 15 to 30 minute free trials? If so, please let me know what results you've seen.
Gawd will wonders ever cease, talk about beating a dead horse! LOL It's DEAD.
This milseading surfers sending them all to the same members area is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard.
ARS has how many sites? do you think they have that many members areas? Python has how many sites? And for each site they have a totally different members area right?
Pu-leeze. This debate is futile, I'm going to the auto show.
Originally posted by *KK*@Feb 15 2003, 07:19 AM Sorry Dravyk, but given the fact that most everyone buys from the same content producers, same plug in people and the same feed companies, basically ALL paysites are the same and surfers should never join more than one, by your reckoning.
If thats the case we can all give up now...
Yes we all -- in a sense -- buy from the same content providers and same plugin companies, does not mean:
a) every large paysite has to be constructed in the way I described to 90 others
b ) every paysite has to be connected at all to every other paysite in that sponsor's stable
c) that (guessing these numbers out of a hat) with three dozen plugin companies and 400 plugin products everyone has to use the same five only and the same 100 only (which tends to be the case)
d) that paysite owners can't shoot their own exclusive content
e) that every members area has to be in the same cookie mold every where you go
I could go on, but what you got by "my reckoning" you reckoned wrongly. If this is the ONLY model for a members area, then yeah maybe we should give up because surfers are already tired of it.
A small niched site deliverying, oh 15K of pics of only that niche, and which displays care to be different or the best in that one area and displays (a certain feature lacking in most cases creativity is going to have greater retention than the 2 million image site with 4k niched content interconnecting to 90 clones.
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This sort of explains low rention rates, no?
Yes.
Also explains why if you sell a surfer a membership site to XYZCash, you'll never again sell that surfer to another XYZCash site because they've seen all of 100 XYZ's sites already having joined one of them.
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talk about beating a dead horse
I like horse-beating especially when they are dead. It's a new niche. Wow, this could be site number 101. Anyone got 10 pics so I can throw up a new paysite? :P
A small niched site deliverying, oh 15K of pics of only that niche, and which displays care to be different or the best in that one area and displays (a certain feature lacking in most cases creativity is going to have greater retention than the 2 million image site with 4k niched content interconnecting to 90 clones
I'm not sure you even need 15k of pics. Our amateur site is up to 5k of pics now and our retention rate is a tad better than the industry average.
As Heather mentioned earlier - we get quite a few guys come back to the site and sign-up again too.
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I don't see how ANY free trial is a no credit card trial. That makes zero sense.
A surfer on a free trial has to be able to pre-auth for the amount of the rebill at the time of the free trial or he doesn't get to join.
Now if you are doing a 30 minute free trial moving to a one day or three day or seven day paid trial of 5 bucks, then you're only pre-authing the next trial price, NOT the monthly rebill.
But you don't just let surfers in because you think they might have a valid credit card with money to spend on it.
02-14-2003
If we ffind a duplicate customer, we do this crazy whacky thing called "provide customer service" and resolve any problems. We're constantly getting emails and ICQ's from customers and we actyually pay attention. Maybe this is why our retentions are better than average? Hell, when we had the big content database crash and lost 90% of our content, we kept our members informed and offered refunds and they stuck with us.
creativity is going to have greater retention than the 2 million image site with 4k niched content interconnecting to 90 clones.
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