OT it looks like two outlets in one of my rooms arent grounded

[tony404]

I changed ancient two outlet to six outlet attachments. I replace the old ones with belkin surge protector ones. Only one green light came on which means the outlets arent grounded. How big of a deal is that?

[griffin8r]

It's a big deal if you're intending to connect sensitive equipment to them.

As to how expensive it is to fix? Shouldn't be that bad. Electrician kills power to that room, pulls the outlets out of the wall, ties 10-2 to the old 10-1 wire, pulls it through to the fuse box (hopefully it wasn't stapled to the wall studs) and wires it up. He puts in new outlets on the other end and bam, he's done. For 6 outlets, depending on situation variables, you're looking at a day or two worth of work.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

It's a big deal if you're intending to connect sensitive equipment to them.

As to how expensive it is to fix? Shouldn't be that bad. Electrician kills power to that room, pulls the outlets out of the wall, ties 10-2 to the old 10-1 wire, pulls it through to the fuse box (hopefully it wasn't stapled to the wall studs) and wires it up. He puts in new outlets on the other end and bam, he's done. For 6 outlets, depending on situation variables, you're looking at a day or two worth of work.

10-2?
What are you planning on powering there? An electric dryer?
#10 wire-30 amps
#12 wire-20 amps
#14 wire-15 amps.....

And he probably already has 12-2.

No ground is bad. But not the end of the world. Unless you are coming from a sub-panel, the neutral (white) in the circuit is tied to the ground in the panel. Without a ground, you don't have a secondary path to ground to shunt naughty power surges that overload the capacitor in your power strip.

Add a level of protection by using a stand-by power supply/backup battery.
Let it isolate your equipment from the wall. Not perfect, but one step closer to protection. Not so much from losing power, but more importantly from isolating the power going directly to your equipment.

But if you got the bucks, have them run you a new line.

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

10-2?
What are you planning on powering there? An electric dryer?
#10 wire-30 amps
#12 wire-20 amps
#14 wire-15 amps.....

Uh, 10-2 is a great choice when you're running every outlet in a room off one circuit.

And for the negligible difference in cost, it's better to over-wire than under.

And he probably already has 12-2.

Depends on how old the wiring is.

No ground is bad. But not the end of the world. Unless you are coming from a sub-panel, the neutral (white) in the circuit is tied to the ground in the panel. Without a ground, you don't have a secondary path to ground to shunt naughty power surges that overload the capacitor in your power strip.

Add a level of protection by using a stand-by power supply/backup battery.
Let it isolate your equipment from the wall. Not perfect, but one step closer to protection. Not so much from losing power, but more importantly from isolating the power going directly to your equipment.

You do realize that a UPS system will still be vulnerable and is likely to blow on an ungrounded supply line? Using a UPS as a solution here is throwing away money, IMNSHO.

But if you got the bucks, have them run you a new line.

Frankly, it's worth running the new line anyway.By the time you get done replacing 4-5 UPS's and/or surge suppressors, you'll be sick of the aggravation and you'll be out all that extra money, and still won't have clean power.

With no ground, even the tiniest fluctuations become as bad as major electrical storms.

Pay now, or pay later....

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

Uh, 10-2 is a great choice when you're running every outlet in a room off one circuit.

And for the negligible difference in cost, it's better to over-wire than under.

Depends on how old the wiring is.

You do realize that a UPS system will still be vulnerable and is likely to blow on an ungrounded supply line? Using a UPS as a solution here is throwing away money, IMNSHO.

Frankly, it's worth running the new line anyway.By the time you get done replacing 4-5 UPS's and/or surge suppressors, you'll be sick of the aggravation and you'll be out all that extra money, and still won't have clean power.

With no ground, even the tiniest fluctuations become as bad as major electrical storms.

Pay now, or pay later....

I reckon we may as well argue about this as anything else.....
:-)

While you're running that 10-2?
What's the plan? 20 amp breaker? 30 amp breaker?
What about the outlets themselves?
Planning on passing an inspection at any point?
Or heavens forbid you have a fire, and the fire inspector, insurance adjuster sees a recent change, with a 30 amp breaker, and 15/20 amp outlets that melted and caused the fire?


A proper, isolating UPS will SAVE your PC by isolating the power from the line, and adding/subtracting to give an even 115VAC at all times.
It's the fluctuations that cause the problems....not the redundant ground.
The ground is useless, unless you lose the neutral. Sure, a proper "surge protector" may need to shunt some extra voltage spike to ground, but you're talking about trusting your equipment to a 20 cent capacitor?

No, a proper line conditioning UPS is BY FAR your best choice here.
Not about the battery backup....just about balancing the line.

And even 1-20 amp line will run an awful lot of computer equipment......

[Buckwheat]

Giv'em hell Merlin!

[tony404]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I reckon we may as well argue about this as anything else.....
:-)

While you're running that 10-2?
What's the plan? 20 amp breaker? 30 amp breaker?
What about the outlets themselves?
Planning on passing an inspection at any point?
Or heavens forbid you have a fire, and the fire inspector, insurance adjuster sees a recent change, with a 30 amp breaker, and 15/20 amp outlets that melted and caused the fire?


A proper, isolating UPS will SAVE your PC by isolating the power from the line, and adding/subtracting to give an even 115VAC at all times.
It's the fluctuations that cause the problems....not the redundant ground.
The ground is useless, unless you lose the neutral. Sure, a proper "surge protector" may need to shunt some extra voltage spike to ground, but you're talking about trusting your equipment to a 20 cent capacitor?

No, a proper line conditioning UPS is BY FAR your best choice here.
Not about the battery backup....just about balancing the line.

And even 1-20 amp line will run an awful lot of computer equipment......

The only thing using juice in this room are lights and flashes now and then.

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I reckon we may as well argue about this as anything else.....
:-)

While you're running that 10-2?
What's the plan? 20 amp breaker? 30 amp breaker?
What about the outlets themselves?
Planning on passing an inspection at any point?
Or heavens forbid you have a fire, and the fire inspector, insurance adjuster sees a recent change, with a 30 amp breaker, and 15/20 amp outlets that melted and caused the fire?

Well, I'm not much for arguing about petty stuff, but...

1) No reason to go over 15 amps on the breaker. We're not running industrial equipment here...

2) The outlets themselves? I'd use 15's with internal breakers. Won't have to worry about a fire if the plug itself won't overload.

A proper, isolating UPS will SAVE your PC by isolating the power from the line, and adding/subtracting to give an even 115VAC at all times.
It's the fluctuations that cause the problems....not the redundant ground.
The ground is useless, unless you lose the neutral. Sure, a proper "surge protector" may need to shunt some extra voltage spike to ground, but you're talking about trusting your equipment to a 20 cent capacitor?

No, a proper line conditioning UPS is BY FAR your best choice here.
Not about the battery backup....just about balancing the line.

You missed my entire point. Those UPS's still have 20 cent capacitors in them that blow when they've reached a surge load limit. Operating one on an ungrounded (which is what the OP stated) outlet will hasten its demise. Of course it'll protect your equipment, but you'll be buying new ones every six months because you still have no neutral on your circuit.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

...Those UPS's still have 20 cent capacitors in them that blow when they've reached a surge load limit. Operating one on an ungrounded (which is what the OP stated) outlet will hasten its demise. Of course it'll protect your equipment, but you'll be buying new ones every six months because you still have no neutral on your circuit.

That's simply not the case in my experience. This entire house does not have grounded outlets. I've been using an APC ES 350 UPS that is now almost three years old and still functioning just fine.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

Well, I'm not much for arguing about petty stuff, but...

1) No reason to go over 15 amps on the breaker. We're not running industrial equipment here...

2) The outlets themselves? I'd use 15's with internal breakers. Won't have to worry about a fire if the plug itself won't overload.



You missed my entire point. Those UPS's still have 20 cent capacitors in them that blow when they've reached a surge load limit. Operating one on an ungrounded (which is what the OP stated) outlet will hasten its demise. Of course it'll protect your equipment, but you'll be buying new ones every six months because you still have no neutral on your circuit.

Again, running 10-2 and hanging 15 amp outlets on the wire?
You can't use the backwire slots, (Which I wouldn't recommend anyhow,)
and you will have trouble physically putting that wire under the screw.
So, what's the point? And the cost is NOT insignificant. 10-2 approaches double in price to 14-2, which is what you would HAVE to use, minimum, for a 15 amp circuit. And I'm a bit fuzzy on the "breakers inside them." Do you mean Ground fault receptacles? Here's a shocker for you......you can make a ground fault outlet work, even in an outlet without a ground wire.
So that's no safety factor in this situation. In fact, that could bite you in the ass on a fault. If you had a surge, that tripped the ground fault, it's possible that power would have nowhere to go for a split second as the neutral snapped off. Bad news for the next best grounded thing close to the hot wire.
(Extreme example)

Now, your talk about the UPS is Simply wrong. A proper UPS Does NOT use a 20 cent cap. a Proper UPS line conditioner ISOLATES the output power through a transformer, and modulating circuit. There is NO physical electrical connection between your equipment, and the wall power. There is an air gap in the power transformer isolating it. The circuit then monitors and shunts the excess power, using the batteries as a part of the circuit, as well as many caps, voltage regulator, and assorted other components. Your statement regarding failure causes is completely wrong, and I would challenge you to find any support for that, even in theory. The weak part of a UPS is always the batteries, which have X life span, regardless. Theoretically, a bad AC power supply system, that would draw/charge cycle the batteries regularly would actually improve their life span. It simply the battery life cycle works. The bad thing is keeping the batteries peak charged endlessly. (Again, a better UPS that "conditions" the batteries would be an improvement)
Wanna see a schematic?

This is unlike a "surge protector strip," which still has a physical hard wire to hard wire connection from equipment to the wall. The cap in there is used merely as a tiny little dump reservoir for slight over/under power surges. Really, quite useless, considering how much faith people put in them.

A UPS is just a no brainer, if you make your living from that equipment. A very inexpensive insurance policy. More so from the power management, rather than the "hours of backup" specifications of the UPS.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by tony404

The only thing using juice in this room are lights and flashes now and then.

Have you put a line monitor on your service at all?
To find out what the fluctuations are?

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Now, your talk about the UPS is Simply wrong. A proper UPS Does NOT use a 20 cent cap. a Proper UPS line conditioner ISOLATES the output power through a transformer, and modulating circuit. There is NO physical electrical connection between your equipment, and the wall power.

We're still talking past each other here. I'm saying most UPS systems have a MOV-based surge suppression system. Yes, it's true, the equipment stays protected, because the equipment is isolated from the wall by the power supply system, but the power supply system's protection from surge is still a varistor with a limited joule rating, and when that varistor hits its lifetime max, your UPS is toast. Not your equipment, but the UPS itself.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

We're still talking past each other here. I'm saying most UPS systems have a MOV-based surge suppression system. Yes, it's true, the equipment stays protected, because the equipment is isolated from the wall by the power supply system, but the power supply system's protection from surge is still a varistor with a limited joule rating, and when that varistor hits its lifetime max, your UPS is toast. Not your equipment, but the UPS itself.

I'm afraid we'll just have to disagree.
The VDR is only one component of a power management system.
If you drop your UPS in a bathtub filled with water, it's toast too.

[griffin8r]

If you drop your UPS in a bathtub filled with water, it's toast too.

I'm not sure of the relevance here. All I'm saying is that, while the UPS will certainly protect your equipment on an ungrounded line, the fact that the line is still ungrounded means your UPS has less ability to protect itself. Even a series mode protection system is helpless with no neutral to shunt excess voltage.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrica...ed-outlets.htm

The reason surge protection works is that it uses the ground conductor to divert any surge too. And with out it they really do not work correctly. If you find that this is to much then at least get a battery backup power supply. A good one will be around 200.00 dollars and it will regulate and clean the power to the equipment. And usually they take the hit instead of the equipment.

Operative being they take the hit. So, if you don't mind replacing them after virtually every electrical storm, since they are helpless to protect themselves from surge because there's no neutral ground, then yes, they'll solve your problem.

Which was my whole point in the first place. Yes, the UPS will protect whatever is plugged into it, whether there's a ground or not, but you'll be replacing the UPS every time you get a significant line surge or even a series of small line surges, because the system cannot protect itself without a ground.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

I'm not sure of the relevance here. All I'm saying is that, while the UPS will certainly protect your equipment on an ungrounded line, the fact that the line is still ungrounded means your UPS has less ability to protect itself. Even a series mode protection system is helpless with no neutral to shunt excess voltage.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrica...ed-outlets.htm



Operative being they take the hit. So, if you don't mind replacing them after virtually every electrical storm, since they are helpless to protect themselves from surge because there's no neutral ground, then yes, they'll solve your problem.

Which was my whole point in the first place. Yes, the UPS will protect whatever is plugged into it, whether there's a ground or not, but you'll be replacing the UPS every time you get a significant line surge or even a series of small line surges, because the system cannot protect itself without a ground.

You seem to have jumped the shark here.....

We started out with a missing GROUND. Now you are talking about a missing Ground AND a missing neutral.

If there is a missing neutral, I'd run, not walk away from that line. And in most cases, nothing would work.

So, all your arguments about the missing neutral make your statements invalid.
The Ground is the BACKUP for the neutral.....as I'm sure I said in several previous posts.
I'm not sure anything will take a lightning strike. If you are concerned about a lightning strike, make sure you have a rod on top the house, and make sure you are behind a Power transformer without a lot of open wire between you and it.
But the odds of a lightning strike are......well, the odds of a lightning strike.
If you actually get struck by lightning, on your line, your "surge strip" isn't gonna take it, no matter what size wire you have going to ground.

[EmporerEJ]

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[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

You seem to have jumped the shark here.....

We started out with a missing GROUND. Now you are talking about a missing Ground AND a missing neutral.

If there is a missing neutral, I'd run, not walk away from that line. And in most cases, nothing would work.

So, all your arguments about the missing neutral make your statements invalid.
The Ground is the BACKUP for the neutral.....as I'm sure I said in several previous posts.
I'm not sure anything will take a lightning strike. If you are concerned about a lightning strike, make sure you have a rod on top the house, and make sure you are behind a Power transformer without a lot of open wire between you and it.
But the odds of a lightning strike are......well, the odds of a lightning strike.
If you actually get struck by lightning, on your line, your "surge strip" isn't gonna take it, no matter what size wire you have going to ground.

OK....

We need to get back to the fundamentals of a 3-prong outlet and what exactly "ground" is.

In a three-prong outlet, one side is positive, the other side is negative, and the hole in the middle is the ground (also known as the neutral, because it carries no current other than what is shunted to it by the circuitry in an overload)

The reason why that middle hole is considered the "ground" is because there is no ground connection on the negative side of the outlet - that's completing the circuit to and from the electrical supply outside. The neutral pole actually does connect to a true ground drilled into the soil outside of your house near the meter.

When a power strip reports that there is no "ground" on your circuit, it means there's no connection to that neutral plug, which means there's no way to shunt.

I'm not sure where you are on this science, or where we're not making a connection (pardon the pun) in our discussion, but this is all pretty much wiring 101.

Positive/Negative/Neutral(ground) is what I learned back in Journeyman electrical classes 20 years ago.

As to your assertion about lightning striking, I'm not talking about direct lightning strikes. Even minor surges add up in any device with a Metallic Oxide Varistor (MOV) based surge suppression system. The Joule rating on surge suppressors and UPS systems alike is the lifetime maximum amount of surge that MOV will successfully shunt before it fries and defeats any further current flow to the rest of the system - this is PERMANENT - as in, unless you feel lively enough to go in there and replace the MOV yourself, you're going to have to buy a new surge suppressor or UPS box.

If you're lucky (or smart) enough to buy a power conditioner that utilizes Series Mode Suppression, you don't have that problem, because there's no varistor involved, it's a direct shunt to ground of the excess power until it reaches a certain max current, at which point a circuit breaker built into the box will trip and merely need to be reset.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

OK....

We need to get back to the fundamentals of a 3-prong outlet and what exactly "ground" is.

In a three-prong outlet, one side is positive, the other side is negative, and the hole in the middle is the ground (also known as the neutral, because it carries no current other than what is shunted to it by the circuitry in an overload)

The reason why that middle hole is considered the "ground" is because there is no ground connection on the negative side of the outlet - that's completing the circuit to and from the electrical supply outside. The neutral pole actually does connect to a true ground drilled into the soil outside of your house near the meter.

When a power strip reports that there is no "ground" on your circuit, it means there's no connection to that neutral plug, which means there's no way to shunt.

I'm not sure where you are on this science, or where we're not making a connection (pardon the pun) in our discussion, but this is all pretty much wiring 101.

Positive/Negative/Neutral(ground) is what I learned back in Journeyman electrical classes 20 years ago.

I'm not sure what electrical system you are describing, because here in the US, we have a Hot (Black wire) Neutral (White wire) and Ground (Bare Copper)
By virtue of AC (Alternating current) there is no "Negative." The Hot to neutral "Alternates" between positive/negative 60 times a second, hence 60 HZ. Ground goes to earth, theoretically the earth shield, all the way back to the generator casing back at the production plant.

Basic Household electrical single phase service starts with 240 Volts, i.e. 2 hot wires from opposing sides of the sine wave generated at the Hydroelectric/coal/nuclear power plant, both returning to the center "neutral." From each of the "hot" wires to neutral representing 1/2 of the total sine wave. Hence- 120 Volts. a Properly balanced panel would have equal loads on both "legs" of this circuit.
The Neutral and Ground wires are tied to a common Buss bar inside your electrical panel, unless it is a sub-panel, where they are required to be isolated.

No "negative" anywhere to be found in AC Home wiring, except in the theoretical process.

Did you want to get into the discussion as to why a sub panel MUST have isolated neutral and ground? Or would that simply add a layer of confusion to a subject you apparently don't understand?

Yes, it IS wiring 101, and you neither understand basic home wiring, or, apparently, electronic circuitry, where you do begin to see positive/negative. There, of course, we can find DC (Direct current.)
But again, that will certainly lead to additional confusion, since you can have both AC and DC in an electronic circuit.

[griffin8r]

Well, apparently I'm failing to remember those classes, and that's fine, I'll concede.

You're still not addressing the only point I tried to make in this thread - that MOV-based surge suppression on an ungrounded line is doomed to fail repeatedly - which spells doom for your UPS system, and a much higher aggregate cost over actually having a professional rewire the plug with a ground in the first place.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

Well, apparently I'm failing to remember those classes, and that's fine, I'll concede.

You're still not addressing the only point I tried to make in this thread - that MOV-based surge suppression on an ungrounded line is doomed to fail repeatedly - which spells doom for your UPS system, and a much higher aggregate cost over actually having a professional rewire the plug with a ground in the first place.

Well, I said a long time ago we were WAY past the original point of the conversation.
To sum up, any fool that puts faith in a power strip of ANY kind, for ANY reason, (Other than adding extra "Holes") is just fooling themselves.

I would re-wire (With proper size wire) AND use a UPS with isolation.
(Sort of the condom and spermicide approach)

I personally have a 4KV power supply with a z-80 computer in it to filter the power.
Picked it up years ago at a GSA Auction in Baltimore.
Cost the taxpayers in the $27K range, my cost: $22. (And new batteries since)

Remember the GSA government building in the Travolta law movie, "Civil Action?"
The one at the end where the files got stacked? I could SWEAR that was the same damn GSA warehouse. I remember those cool columns.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

Well, apparently I'm failing to remember those classes, and that's fine, I'll concede.

You're still not addressing the only point I tried to make in this thread - that MOV-based surge suppression on an ungrounded line is doomed to fail repeatedly - which spells doom for your UPS system, and a much higher aggregate cost over actually having a professional rewire the plug with a ground in the first place.

Here's how you get back up to speed, quick and dirty.
Get the new building code books. There is a series of "cheat sheet" flip charts they sell to professionals that make the new building codes understandable.
This will refresh you, and get you up to compliance.

http://www.amazon.com/Code-Check-Ele...d_bxgy_b_img_b

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I would re-wire (With proper size wire) AND use a UPS with isolation.
(Sort of the condom and spermicide approach)

So we do agree on the principle - that UPS on an ungrounded line is really a bad idea, but that re-wiring the line is a good one, and supporting that with the added protection of UPS (although I actually prefer a power conditioner with voltage regulation and series-mode surge suppression, but then I'm a muso, and those are the types of things we musos use...)

The rest, semantics. I haven't worked in construction since my back went to shit and I had to go under the knife back in 2002, so my faulty memory of electrical theory isn't a huge ish, other than me looking stupid occasionally.