The Crystal Ball is getting scary...

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Liz, its the same with all of us. We are in a war at the moment that I help pay for. However, I am not opposed to it. I may think it is not being handled well, but I support the concept.
If I lived in the United States, I would have been on the streets years ago. I am not sure what happened to the American spirit, but the war in Viet Nam was ended by a country that was not prepared to continue and made that opinion clear. But that was only because they were drafting white kids.
This time around, the protests were large, but short. The party in power lulled you into submission with money. They gave the illusion of prosperity and you all bought into it. But it was an illusion and this is the result. It was obvious from the get go that the war in Iraq was unwinnable and unaffordable. Even to a low life, undereducated ex journalist like myself this was obvious and I banged that drum loudly on this board and was shot down by so called businessmen who knew better.
But more people should have seen through that fog of misinformation and done something about it. I really don't think that responsibility stops after you walk out of the voting booth after you have hung your chad.

While I can see how you view it that way from the outside, I strongly disagree that the haze was money and prosperity. I can't speak for others, but I know what my motivations have been - and what I have done to support my views in other forums, as I mentioned before in referencing grassroots work. Marches are stupid, and while they are visible, I fail to see the actual application - to me they look like they are a big giant waste of resources in the time and fundraising to coordinate one that results in... What? A traffic jam? A five-second co-opt of the press cycle?

For many, myself included, the haze is much more insidious: it's fear. With the continued attacks on personal liberty which opposition has recieved minimal press coverage - and a flat-out terror that organising to speak against anything will end in Bad Things.

[softball]

Where did it all go wrong? The most effective way to mollify a populace is to create a state of fear and a struggle. When I lived in the Soviet Union during the cold war, they kept the population under their thumb by creating a struggle for peace.
This administration created a struggle for safety.
This contributes to an on going state of fear and a cowed population and the government can do what it likes, until it runs out of resources as we are witnessing.
I disagree with you about protests. The cumulative effect of large rallies is something a government cannot withstand. We see it in France today when labour organizations hit the streets. More to the point, it ended the Viet Nam war. When people forget that power or are too afraid or fat to wield it, then the government is given a free hand to run amuck. It does way more than cause traffic jams and minor disruption. Kent State was hardly a minor disruption or a blip in a news cycle.
It is the only hope the citizenry have when their elected or empowered elite become megalomaniacs.

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Where did it all go wrong? The most effective way to mollify a populace is to create a state of fear and a struggle. When I lived in the Soviet Union during the cold war, they kept the population under their thumb by creating a struggle for peace.
This administration created a struggle for safety.
This contributes to an on going state of fear and a cowed population and the government can do what it likes, until it runs out of resources as we are witnessing.
I disagree with you about protests. The cumulative effect of large rallies is something a government cannot withstand. We see it in France today when labour organizations hit the streets. More to the point, it ended the Viet Nam war. When people forget that power or are too afraid or fat to wield it, then the government is given a free hand to run amuck. It does way more than cause traffic jams and minor disruption. Kent State was hardly a minor disruption or a blip in a news cycle.
It is the only hope the citizenry have when their elected or empowered elite become megalomaniacs.

Are you sincerely drawing a parallel between the current world and the world in which Kent State and Altamont took over the news cycles for days on end?

Really?

'Cos I'm sorry, Rhet, but I gotta call bullshit on that one, because that's about like putting The Exorcist and Saw up against one another and calling them the same movie. They're not - and the general reception of each is a fairly clear indicator of shifts in societal mores and inurement to things that in the period you reference would have been unimaginable. Immersion in breaking news and the media shrieking at the top of its lungs on the NEXT BIG STORY drives home the point.

[softball]

Originally Posted by LizAEBN

Are you sincerely drawing a parallel between the current world and the world in which Kent State and Altamont took over the news cycles for days on end?

Really?

'Cos I'm sorry, Rhet, but I gotta call bullshit on that one, because that's about like putting The Exorcist and Saw up against one another and calling them the same movie. They're not - and the general reception of each is a fairly clear indicator of shifts in societal mores and inurement to things that in the period you reference would have been unimaginable. Immersion in breaking news and the media shrieking at the top of its lungs on the NEXT BIG STORY drives home the point.

Well, that is a mouthful, but here goes....l.
Yes they are the same. The world may have appeared to have changed but it hasn't changed all that much. The spin has become more sophisticated as has the delivery system. The results are the same. The Viet Nam war is a great parallel for this mess in Iraq. Societal mores have evolved somewhat, but if you think they can't do a 180 in a few short years, you might want to reflect on the past thirty. Why would you not put the Exorcist and Saw up against one another?
As far as immersion in news, sorry to say, but back in those days of foolish wars, oil embargoes, scary, scary inflation, we were all immersed in it. Gas line ups, violent protests around the world, the Cold War.

And if you think what we are going through is serious, wait until Mr. Putin jerks our chain shortly. And as long as America is living in this current mess, there will be no defense against the shit he will rain down. Please do not think this is a paranoid rambling, because it is not. It is a 180 degree shift back to the cold war coming at us like a freight train. We need to build a much more successful society to fend off the coming storm in a very dangerous world.

[softball]

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Well, that is a mouthful, but here goes....l.
Yes they are the same. The world may have appeared to have changed but it hasn't changed all that much. The spin has become more sophisticated as has the delivery system. The results are the same. The Viet Nam war is a great parallel for this mess in Iraq. Societal mores have evolved somewhat, but if you think they can't do a 180 in a few short years, you might want to reflect on the past thirty. Why would you not put the Exorcist and Saw up against one another?
As far as immersion in news, sorry to say, but back in those days of foolish wars, oil embargoes, scary, scary inflation, we were all immersed in it. Gas line ups, violent protests around the world, the Cold War.

And if you think what we are going through is serious, wait until Mr. Putin jerks our chain shortly. And as long as America is living in this current mess, there will be no defense against the shit he will rain down. Please do not think this is a paranoid rambling, because it is not. It is a 180 degree shift back to the cold war coming at us like a freight train. We need to build a much more successful society to fend off the coming storm in a very dangerous world.

My point with the movie references was the sheer difference in response to them - when The Exorcist came out, it was nightmare inducing, and the public at large was terrifying; compare and contrast to Saw and you see just how different the world in which we live is in comparision, because the response to it, while it was a much more horrific movie overall, was a resounding "Meh." It's indicative of the response the horrors with which we are innundated on a daily basis - things that 40 years ago would've inspired visceral responses now simply don't, because we are so flooded with news, images, and stimuli that would be horrifying if they weren't so overwhelming.

There are lots of things I agree with you about - but my point stands that I think it's a very different world than it was then, and the tactics that worked at one time don't work now. Marches are larger scale, but have less lasting impact, and people have wildly different methods of rebellion and action available to them. I maintain that your perception of Americans "deserving" what they get is faulty as a result of bias. *shrug*