The Crystal Ball is getting scary...

[Hell Puppy]

All of the events of the past couple of weeks have really tilted the election into the favor of Obama. He's going to have to slip up and drop an MF bomb in front of a live mic or something to lose at this point.

America has come a long ways in terms of social views toward racism, sexism, etc in the last 50-60 years.

I think the majority of America really doesn't care what the color of Obama's skin is, myself included. I'm not a fan, but it's the fact he's a marxist that bothers me, not his skin color. But there are pockets of America that aren't really all that progressive.

One need only drive deep into Alabama and Mississippi to go back in time 50 years or so. Rednecks, crackers, whatever you wanna call 'em, they still dont care much for being under the rule of a black man. Especially a black man who will tax the hell out of those who run their own businesses. Obama considers anyone over $250K to be "evil rich", well, you know there are good ole boy family operations running things like dump trucking companies that are in that realm. And he wants to take some more of there money and penalize them for the piss poor mileage their beloved pickup trucks get.

These good old boys are armed.

There's another segment of America that isn't going to like Obama. Big business, powerful men, oil company barrons, defense contractors, etc. War and oil are big money and their lifeblood. Any JFK conspiracy freaks in the house? He wanted to shut down Vietnam. Lee Harvey acted alone, forget that whole grassy knoll thing.

My crystal ball suggests Obama gets elected and there's a high probability he gets shot within the first 6 months. It's tough to get to a President now, but it is impossible to stop an assassination if the assassin is willing to give up his own life.....or if he has inside help.

If it happens, then what?

Well, first off, every urban area riots and all the brothers get new sneakers, TV sets, candy bars and beer.

Some poor white bastards who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and thinks private citizens shouldn't own or carry guns will get the holy hell beat out of themselves.

The stock market will tank.

Obama will be a martyr, he'll replace Truman on the dime.

And America plunges deep into socialism to carry out his dream while the founding fathers turn in their graves.

[softball]

but it's the fact he's a marxist

How do you figure? And is that a bad thing?

Obama considers anyone over $250K to be "evil rich"

He never said that. He just thinks they should pay their taxes. Remember all wealth is generated from the land. And everyone owns the land. You pay your share on the share you earn.

there are good ole boy family operations running things like dump trucking companies that are in that realm

I would bet very few on their personal taxes. And if they did, then they should pay their share.

The stock market will tank.

It already has

And America plunges deep into socialism to carry out his dream while the founding fathers turn in their graves.

It all depends if you consider it a plunge or an elevation. BTW, the founding fathers were not Gods and they knew nothing of Socialism. It hadn't been invented. If it had, they might have taken the best of it and you would all at least be able to get decent medical care without being rich.

[RawAlex]

It is proof in the end how much pain the average American is feeling as the Dubya era comes to an end. The idea of electing an old guy that is 90% more Bush isn't appealing enough to people that they are willing to vote for a (insert n word here).

That's pretty serious.

[DannyCox]

Obama considers anyone over $250K to be "evil rich"

No, that's just campaign spin, nothing more. He knows he has the Democratic vote so he's playing up to Middle America Republicans who think anyone who makes more than $250K to be the rich elite. Smart move.

I'm not a fan, but it's the fact he's a marxist that bothers me, not his skin color.

Okay, that one threw me. Just because someone has Socialist beliefs, where we should help one another in times of need (standard Democratic/Liberal belief), people on the right will automatically label them as a Marxist or Communist. I am a left-leaning Liberal, but would never consider something like Marxism as I am a Capitalist. I work hard for my money, and am willing to share some, but not all as is the Marxist philosophy. I see Obama as someone with similar beliefs.

Now, is Obama a Black Man with a White mother, or a White Man with a Black father?? Get a little tan, and the Rednecks start calling you Black

[Hell Puppy]

If you want to learn about Obama's affinity for Marxism, google for Obama and Saul Alinsky.

I dont mind paying my fair share, not at all, I support the following 100%:

http://www.fairtax.org

[Hell Puppy]

This sounds pretty marxist to me...

And is it a bad thing? Only if you work for a living and like to keep what you earn. If you're lazy and sit on your ass and desire to be a drag on society, sounds pretty good.

[DannyCox]

If you're lazy and sit on your ass and just believe what you are fed in a video that illustrates only key words....then you are a fool!

But what he talks about is standard Liberal dogma, nothing more. Redistribution of wealth already happens under any form of government, just think of things like Welfare, Unemployment Insurance, Medicaid, etc. I don't see how you can get Marxism from any of that! I am sorry to say that you almost sound like one of those Ignorant Heartland idiots that call Obama a Muslim and a terrorist.

All I, or anyone can ask, is think for yourself and don't be mislead by the spin doctors out there. Do your own research if you really want to learn, and leave all the YouTube Spin for the drolling masses.

[RawAlex]

All tax systems are a form of socialism, if you want to look at it like that. Making a plumbing company's effective tax rate go from 25% to 28% isn't exactly rampant socialism.

McCain has turned into a true whiner, devoid of ideas, with nothing more than attacks based on falsehoods and misinformation. He hopes to win the election because more than 50% of voters would be stupid enough to fall for it.

That is sad.

[DannyCox]

I guess a $700B bailout for the financial institutions by the Bush administration isn't a socialist act either. I love watching McCain squirm when he's hit with that one.

[TheEnforcer]

Oh man.. I got a lot I could write but I just don't have the energy to do so.. suffice it to say partial youtube clips aren't exactly a banner news source.

[andreajmata]

Crying "class struggles" with the solution being higher taxes, collected and redistributed by the gracious hand of a controlling government is Socialism at it's core. Marx felt that the only way to achieve a classless society was for the working class to revolt. Socialism>Communism>Marxism. All are the antithesis of Capitalism and it's a direction that we've been moving in as a country since 1935.

In the last 8 years we've seen the largest growth of government, and the largest reduction of personal freedoms in the history of this country. If you think that "real change" is going to come from a Democratic Majority in the House and Senate, led by a Democratic President, I suggest you hold onto your wallet a little tighter.

Shock and awe worked incredibly well - on the American public. The fear-mongering powers that be, have left us ripe for allowing us to believe that the "government knows best."

There is no "real change," until the sheeple wake the fuck up and realize that the control of government by two power hungry corrupt political parties is only going to get them more of the same.

[softball]

The fact that Marxism has even been a topic of discussion speaks to the power of the GOP spin machine. It is contemporary Swiftboating.

Johnson (LBJ) wanted to accuse an
opponent of bestiality, and when he was told that he
couldn't truthfully do so, his words were, " I know,
but let's make him publicly deny it."

The reason American's will have to pay higher taxes has nothing to do with the redistribution of the wealth and everything to do with living beyond your means. Who else, exactly, do you expect to pay for a war you can't afford or a house you can't afford. Just wondering.

[Robert]

Step one: Turn off FOX.

[LAJ]

If I ever find myself deep within Alabama or Mississippi it'll be 100% against my will.

I can already hear the "deliverance" music as I channel my inner Ned Beatty... UGH.

Back on topic... I think regardless of who is in office, whether Obama wins or the neocons throw the election a 3rd time... SOMEONE is going after the president. I think that is a given in today's hostile age in a country soooooo deeply divided.

[DannyCox]

But Deliverance took place in Georgia!! The Home State of Oprano!

Gonzo sure does have a purty mouth. Ima goin' to make him squel like a pig!

[andreajmata]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

The fact that Marxism has even been a topic of discussion speaks to the power of the GOP spin machine. It is contemporary Swiftboating.


The reason American's will have to pay higher taxes has nothing to do with the redistribution of the wealth and everything to do with living beyond your means. Who else, exactly, do you expect to pay for a war you can't afford or a house you can't afford. Just wondering.

Whoa, wait. 33% of Americans don't pay ANY TAXES AT ALL. - We've had one, and *everyone* agrees that there should be another, "Economic Stimulus Package. Those 33% of Americans - ya know, the ones that pay no taxes, and already get EIC - they benefit from that. That's free money! Oh wait. No it isn't. It's MY money. Me, - yeah... with NO debt, No credit cards, and a "middle class" income. I'm certainly not living beyond my means. Why the fuck to *they* get to redistribute *MY* wealth?

The idiots in adjustable rate mortgages should have done more research before buying a house. The assholes that conned those po' ignant' people should be strung up by their petards, but they're too busy floating away on their golden parachutes, courtesy of the bailout that *I'm* going to end up paying for.

Oh, and my war? Nope - I'm a card carrying Libertarian and I said THEN that we had no business in Iraq.

[andreajmata]

Originally Posted by Robert

Step one: Turn off FOX.

Doncha mean Faux?

[softball]

Originally Posted by andreajmata

Whoa, wait. 33% of Americans don't pay ANY TAXES AT ALL. - We've had one, and *everyone* agrees that there should be another, "Economic Stimulus Package. Those 33% of Americans - ya know, the ones that pay no taxes, and already get EIC - they benefit from that. That's free money! Oh wait. No it isn't. It's MY money. Me, - yeah... with NO debt, No credit cards, and a "middle class" income. I'm certainly not living beyond my means. Why the fuck to *they* get to redistribute *MY* wealth?

The idiots in adjustable rate mortgages should have done more research before buying a house. The assholes that conned those po' ignant' people should be strung up by their petards, but they're too busy floating away on their golden parachutes, courtesy of the bailout that *I'm* going to end up paying for.

Oh, and my war? Nope - I'm a card carrying Libertarian and I said THEN that we had no business in Iraq.

If you pay for it, it is your war.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by LAJ

If I ever find myself deep within Alabama or Mississippi it'll be 100% against my will.

I can already hear the "deliverance" music as I channel my inner Ned Beatty... UGH.

Yeah, and if Lee had listened to Longstreet and flanked the bastards instead of charging up the middle, you'd be sending your tax money to Richmond and we wouldn't be in this mess.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Yeah, and if Lee had listened to Longstreet and flanked the bastards instead of charging up the middle, you'd be sending your tax money to Richmond and we wouldn't be in this mess.

"wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin'. I think the mess would have been much worse. Except it would have happened before we were born.

[tony404]

bring the tax rates back to clinton rates are socialist? Before Mccain sold his soul he had said the bush tax cuts were dumb during a time of war and that favored the rich too much.Someone making 280k will pay a extra$257 a year boy thats just giving it all away. I spend more at dinnr at fogo. lol The biggests buyers of our products are the working middle class during bush wages have dropped. Trickle down doesnt work.We wont get into that if you make your money in adult to vote republican you have to have your head checked. Why do you think Larry flynt and hugh hefner are democrats they are rich men. They actually lived the history of adult and know republicans are bad for business especially when you add in whoever is the next president will pick two supreme court justices. Learn your history.

[tony404]

the financial times not a liberal publication endorsed obama. Stop listening to pundits
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1d0b127c-a...nclick_check=1

[softball]

Trickle down doesnt work.

Can I get an Amen to that brothers and sisters?

[Hell Puppy]

It's not so much the taxes that I have a problem with, though I do think the American way should remain such that a poor man can become a rich man by working hard and he should get to keep the fruits of his labors to do with as he pleases.

In the election, I dont think either side has a strong candidate. I dont align with either party, I'm hardcore libertarian when you get right down to it.

My problem with both candidates and both parties is they see the answer to all problems as being more government. Government control of everything and a populace that relies upon it. And the issue there for me is I cant name one thing that the government runs efficiently.

[softball]

I do think the American way should remain such that a poor man can become a rich man by working hard and he should get to keep the fruits of his labors to do with as he pleases.

However, the income anyone earns comes directly from the land which we all own. All wealth is created from the earth. That means that you can never keep all that you earn because you don't own the source of the wealth. Exploitation of what we all own comes with a price. It also appears that all the so called "risk takers" are cry babies that need the poor people to give them billions of dollars to cover their bad decisions. Corporate welfare bums. So if you have to bail out these lying bastards, how do you propose to pay for this?

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by DannyCox

But Deliverance took place in Georgia!! The Home State of Oprano!

Gonzo sure does have a purty mouth. Ima goin' to make him squel like a pig!

Why did yall have to mention Deliverance?
You know Danny is a charter member of the Ned Beatty fan club.

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

If you pay for it, it is your war.

Sad part is that because I pay my taxes, I am being forced to pay in support for a war I opposed, by candidates I didn't elect.

I'm pretty sure you know that half the country voted against Bush and his warmongering cronism approaches to pretty much everything. So it's a little ridiculous to tar us all with that brush.

I strongly believe that I should be able to choose the initiatives I would like my financial support to be thrown behind - sadly, as the US is established as a representative republic, I am not provided that option. So the best I can do is work at the grassroots level to make changes *I* believe in until the allegedly elected "officials" are aligned with me. Sadly, that's not really all that likely to happen.

[softball]

Liz, its the same with all of us. We are in a war at the moment that I help pay for. However, I am not opposed to it. I may think it is not being handled well, but I support the concept.
If I lived in the United States, I would have been on the streets years ago. I am not sure what happened to the American spirit, but the war in Viet Nam was ended by a country that was not prepared to continue and made that opinion clear. But that was only because they were drafting white kids.
This time around, the protests were large, but short. The party in power lulled you into submission with money. They gave the illusion of prosperity and you all bought into it. But it was an illusion and this is the result. It was obvious from the get go that the war in Iraq was unwinnable and unaffordable. Even to a low life, undereducated ex journalist like myself this was obvious and I banged that drum loudly on this board and was shot down by so called businessmen who knew better.
But more people should have seen through that fog of misinformation and done something about it. I really don't think that responsibility stops after you walk out of the voting booth after you have hung your chad.

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Liz, its the same with all of us. We are in a war at the moment that I help pay for. However, I am not opposed to it. I may think it is not being handled well, but I support the concept.
If I lived in the United States, I would have been on the streets years ago. I am not sure what happened to the American spirit, but the war in Viet Nam was ended by a country that was not prepared to continue and made that opinion clear. But that was only because they were drafting white kids.
This time around, the protests were large, but short. The party in power lulled you into submission with money. They gave the illusion of prosperity and you all bought into it. But it was an illusion and this is the result. It was obvious from the get go that the war in Iraq was unwinnable and unaffordable. Even to a low life, undereducated ex journalist like myself this was obvious and I banged that drum loudly on this board and was shot down by so called businessmen who knew better.
But more people should have seen through that fog of misinformation and done something about it. I really don't think that responsibility stops after you walk out of the voting booth after you have hung your chad.

While I can see how you view it that way from the outside, I strongly disagree that the haze was money and prosperity. I can't speak for others, but I know what my motivations have been - and what I have done to support my views in other forums, as I mentioned before in referencing grassroots work. Marches are stupid, and while they are visible, I fail to see the actual application - to me they look like they are a big giant waste of resources in the time and fundraising to coordinate one that results in... What? A traffic jam? A five-second co-opt of the press cycle?

For many, myself included, the haze is much more insidious: it's fear. With the continued attacks on personal liberty which opposition has recieved minimal press coverage - and a flat-out terror that organising to speak against anything will end in Bad Things.

[softball]

Where did it all go wrong? The most effective way to mollify a populace is to create a state of fear and a struggle. When I lived in the Soviet Union during the cold war, they kept the population under their thumb by creating a struggle for peace.
This administration created a struggle for safety.
This contributes to an on going state of fear and a cowed population and the government can do what it likes, until it runs out of resources as we are witnessing.
I disagree with you about protests. The cumulative effect of large rallies is something a government cannot withstand. We see it in France today when labour organizations hit the streets. More to the point, it ended the Viet Nam war. When people forget that power or are too afraid or fat to wield it, then the government is given a free hand to run amuck. It does way more than cause traffic jams and minor disruption. Kent State was hardly a minor disruption or a blip in a news cycle.
It is the only hope the citizenry have when their elected or empowered elite become megalomaniacs.

[Toby]

I do believe an esteemed author once called it Civil Disobedience.

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Where did it all go wrong? The most effective way to mollify a populace is to create a state of fear and a struggle. When I lived in the Soviet Union during the cold war, they kept the population under their thumb by creating a struggle for peace.
This administration created a struggle for safety.
This contributes to an on going state of fear and a cowed population and the government can do what it likes, until it runs out of resources as we are witnessing.
I disagree with you about protests. The cumulative effect of large rallies is something a government cannot withstand. We see it in France today when labour organizations hit the streets. More to the point, it ended the Viet Nam war. When people forget that power or are too afraid or fat to wield it, then the government is given a free hand to run amuck. It does way more than cause traffic jams and minor disruption. Kent State was hardly a minor disruption or a blip in a news cycle.
It is the only hope the citizenry have when their elected or empowered elite become megalomaniacs.

Are you sincerely drawing a parallel between the current world and the world in which Kent State and Altamont took over the news cycles for days on end?

Really?

'Cos I'm sorry, Rhet, but I gotta call bullshit on that one, because that's about like putting The Exorcist and Saw up against one another and calling them the same movie. They're not - and the general reception of each is a fairly clear indicator of shifts in societal mores and inurement to things that in the period you reference would have been unimaginable. Immersion in breaking news and the media shrieking at the top of its lungs on the NEXT BIG STORY drives home the point.

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by Toby

I do believe an esteemed author once called it Civil Disobedience.

Sure, and Thoreau was an awesome thinker - no dispute there. I don't ask the govenment to support me, and I support a free market. Sadly, no one trusts on - you can look around at other threads on this very board to see that.

[softball]

Originally Posted by LizAEBN

Sure, and Thoreau was an awesome thinker - no dispute there. I don't ask the govenment to support me, and I support a free market. Sadly, no one trusts on - you can look around at other threads on this very board to see that.

Laissez-faire has never really worked. It is a system that is not really a system. Someone is always sucking off the government tit and the government grows.
It is broken. Probably beyond repair. I look at functional countries that have a decent distribution of the wealth like Sweden, Canada, Norway, Finland and even (with some large reservations) the UK, where government "interferes" for the good of the electorate, not just the rich and you have things like social housing and social medicine and I see a successful society where the rich may not be as rich (UK excepted) but the poor are not quite as poor. In any of these countries New Orleans would be fixed by now. That is a sad commentary on how dysfunctional the so called free market has become.
Liberalism, socialism are phrases that are spat out as epithets in the United States which is curious because a whole bunch of high rolling capitalists are begging for socialism to get them out of this mess. Why? So they can do it all over again with no controls (socialist) over their bad behaviour?

[softball]

Originally Posted by LizAEBN

Are you sincerely drawing a parallel between the current world and the world in which Kent State and Altamont took over the news cycles for days on end?

Really?

'Cos I'm sorry, Rhet, but I gotta call bullshit on that one, because that's about like putting The Exorcist and Saw up against one another and calling them the same movie. They're not - and the general reception of each is a fairly clear indicator of shifts in societal mores and inurement to things that in the period you reference would have been unimaginable. Immersion in breaking news and the media shrieking at the top of its lungs on the NEXT BIG STORY drives home the point.

Well, that is a mouthful, but here goes....l.
Yes they are the same. The world may have appeared to have changed but it hasn't changed all that much. The spin has become more sophisticated as has the delivery system. The results are the same. The Viet Nam war is a great parallel for this mess in Iraq. Societal mores have evolved somewhat, but if you think they can't do a 180 in a few short years, you might want to reflect on the past thirty. Why would you not put the Exorcist and Saw up against one another?
As far as immersion in news, sorry to say, but back in those days of foolish wars, oil embargoes, scary, scary inflation, we were all immersed in it. Gas line ups, violent protests around the world, the Cold War.

And if you think what we are going through is serious, wait until Mr. Putin jerks our chain shortly. And as long as America is living in this current mess, there will be no defense against the shit he will rain down. Please do not think this is a paranoid rambling, because it is not. It is a 180 degree shift back to the cold war coming at us like a freight train. We need to build a much more successful society to fend off the coming storm in a very dangerous world.

[softball]

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Well, that is a mouthful, but here goes....l.
Yes they are the same. The world may have appeared to have changed but it hasn't changed all that much. The spin has become more sophisticated as has the delivery system. The results are the same. The Viet Nam war is a great parallel for this mess in Iraq. Societal mores have evolved somewhat, but if you think they can't do a 180 in a few short years, you might want to reflect on the past thirty. Why would you not put the Exorcist and Saw up against one another?
As far as immersion in news, sorry to say, but back in those days of foolish wars, oil embargoes, scary, scary inflation, we were all immersed in it. Gas line ups, violent protests around the world, the Cold War.

And if you think what we are going through is serious, wait until Mr. Putin jerks our chain shortly. And as long as America is living in this current mess, there will be no defense against the shit he will rain down. Please do not think this is a paranoid rambling, because it is not. It is a 180 degree shift back to the cold war coming at us like a freight train. We need to build a much more successful society to fend off the coming storm in a very dangerous world.

My point with the movie references was the sheer difference in response to them - when The Exorcist came out, it was nightmare inducing, and the public at large was terrifying; compare and contrast to Saw and you see just how different the world in which we live is in comparision, because the response to it, while it was a much more horrific movie overall, was a resounding "Meh." It's indicative of the response the horrors with which we are innundated on a daily basis - things that 40 years ago would've inspired visceral responses now simply don't, because we are so flooded with news, images, and stimuli that would be horrifying if they weren't so overwhelming.

There are lots of things I agree with you about - but my point stands that I think it's a very different world than it was then, and the tactics that worked at one time don't work now. Marches are larger scale, but have less lasting impact, and people have wildly different methods of rebellion and action available to them. I maintain that your perception of Americans "deserving" what they get is faulty as a result of bias. *shrug*

[softball]

but my point stands that I think it's a very different world than it was then, and the tactics that worked at one time don't work now. Marches are larger scale, but have less lasting impact, and people have wildly different methods of rebellion and action available to them. I maintain that your perception of Americans "deserving" what they get is faulty as a result of bias. *shrug*

I maintain that your perception of Americans "deserving" what they get is faulty as a result of bias. *shrug*

This is where you actually misread my intention. I firmly believe that any country gets the government they deserve. Whether it be potentate of president. The people will revolt with overwhelming force if necessary to get the government they think they want. Russia, France and the United states are prime examples of this. Other countries take a little longer, like England.

I do believe the tactics of protest work, I just don't think Americans had the stomach for them. They were lulled by a false economy and the invisibility of body bags and funerals. And that protest includes the arts like music for instance. Today all you hear is over produced urban angst and party tunes. And when the war broke out a plethora patriotism on the country charts. Hell, look what happened to the Dixie Chicks.

Yes our senses have been dulled to violence, but that, unfortunately, is fueled by domestic violence which seems nearly as bad as war. The ghost of Abu Gharaib and the POW's in Guantanamo are proof of that disinterest.

It is a different world, I agree. But not so different that certain principles will always apply. The most important at the moment is that if you fuck with people's livelihood and threaten their homes and families well being, you are twisting the tail of the tiger.

[Hell Puppy]

All I know is I'm not leaving house next Weds.

If Obama wins, the brothers are gonna lose their mind and celebrate and rampage like their favorite sports team won a championship.

If Obama loses, they are gonna lose their mind, riot and all of them will get free sneakers and big screen TV's.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

All I know is I'm not leaving house next Weds.

If Obama wins, the brothers are gonna lose their mind and celebrate and rampage like their favorite sports team won a championship.

If Obama loses, they are gonna lose their mind, riot and all of them will get free sneakers and big screen TV's.

If had a store full of sneakers or big screen TVs I would be moving them off to a warehouse or getting better insurance. Either way, it all works out the same.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

All I know is I'm not leaving house next Weds.

If Obama wins, the brothers are gonna lose their mind and celebrate and rampage like their favorite sports team won a championship.

If Obama loses, they are gonna lose their mind, riot and all of them will get free sneakers and big screen TV's.

Dont forget the Snickers...

[softball]

Or, maybe life goes on as normal.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Or, maybe life goes on as normal.

Maybe.

But with age comes the ability to spot a powder keg. Same reason I now typically am able to leave a bar BEFORE the fight breaks out instead of having to fight my way to the door as I would've in my youth.

And I smell powder keg around this election.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Maybe.

But with age comes the ability to spot a powder keg. Same reason I now typically am able to leave a bar BEFORE the fight breaks out instead of having to fight my way to the door as I would've in my youth.

And I smell powder keg around this election.

I hope your wrong. But it could be like popping a pimple. Sometimes the cure is painful but needs to be done.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

I hope your wrong. But it could be like popping a pimple. Sometimes the cure is painful but needs to be done.

On this much I'll agree. A regime change is definitely needed.

I just dont think more government is the answer.

[tony404]

my father always says remember no matter who wins its only 4 Novembers.