nanny state Mentality

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

The problem is that governments feel that they can tax sin businesses and products almost without issue. Smokes, booze, adult material, etc.

On the other hand, the undercharge for services. How much do you pay to plate you car each year? How many cars in your state? How much is the budget to maintain the roads in your state? Figure out how cheap your plates are.

Hmmmm...I don't know where to begin. First of all, My "state" isn't a "state," it's a commonwealth. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. If, by "you," you mean "your" in the 3rd person, then my "state" doesn't matter. This story is about Florida.
I'm not sure what their "plate" charge is, and I'm really sure it has no bearing on the issue. The issue is about selective taxation on a particular business for an unrelated expense to regulate/operate/monitor that business. We add to that, the wrinkle that this business, dancing, enjoys a higher level of constitutional protection because it's also a free speech/expression-art form, issue.

I'm not sure how you are equating "license plates" to that? (You did mean license plates, i.e registration, right? Not Chrome plating the bumpers or some other form of "plating?")

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Hmmmm...I don't know where to begin. First of all, My "state" isn't a "state," it's a commonwealth. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. If, by "you," you mean "your" in the 3rd person, then my "state" doesn't matter. This story is about Florida.
I'm not sure what their "plate" charge is, and I'm really sure it has no bearing on the issue. The issue is about selective taxation on a particular business for an unrelated expense to regulate/operate/monitor that business. We add to that, the wrinkle that this business, dancing, enjoys a higher level of constitutional protection because it's also a free speech/expression-art form, issue.

I'm not sure how you are equating "license plates" to that? (You did mean license plates, i.e registration, right? Not Chrome plating the bumpers or some other form of "plating?")

*sigh* License plate. That thing with the number and / or letters on the car that allows you to drive the car on the street, aka the registration. In most places, it is a yearly fee. Some states (Hate to tell you that Pennsylvania is a state, even if you want to call it something else) use a sticker or tag system to mark the year as paid, others require smog testing or similar.

The concept is this: Things like strip clubs, beer, smokes and other "sin" items are tax disproportionately to other forms of taxation or fees, because the government knows that they can get away with it. Conversely, things that people would complain about, like the price of putting their car on the road or building permits, example, are kept significantly lower than their costs to make people happy.

I am sorry if this basic concept is beyond the understanding of someone from such an important place as a Commonwealth.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

*sigh* License plate. That thing with the number and / or letters on the car that allows you to drive the car on the street, aka the registration. In most places, it is a yearly fee. Some states (Hate to tell you that Pennsylvania is a state, even if you want to call it something else) use a sticker or tag system to mark the year as paid, others require smog testing or similar.

The concept is this: Things like strip clubs, beer, smokes and other "sin" items are tax disproportionately to other forms of taxation or fees, because the government knows that they can get away with it. Conversely, things that people would complain about, like the price of putting their car on the road or building permits, example, are kept significantly lower than their costs to make people happy.

I am sorry if this basic concept is beyond the understanding of someone from such an important place as a Commonwealth.

(Commonwealth argument aside, as it's off topic, and really not all that important,)

Ummmm...YEA. That's exactly my point. But I don't think the people of Virginia would agree with you on that. As their "Random Tax" (As I prefer to call it,) That is, the automobile Citation is now about $3,000, and they will allow you to pay that in 3 yearly installments of $1,000 each.

And, believe it or not, they do refer to cigarettes, booze, et taxes as "sin taxes" here. (Gotta love that.)
But again, I contend those taxes are different. "Free Speech" is one of the big three enumerated. The others, are not.

[RawAlex]

I am not sure what "citation" you are talking about in Virginia, the costs to register and plate a car in that state are pretty low:

http://www.dmv.virginia.gov/webdoc/citizen/fees.asp

$10 for the title, and under $40 for a car under 4000lbs.

Not exactly sure where you are going.

----

Anyway, the point is this: Roads cost a ton, registering and keeping a car on the road in government fees is often far below what it costs to keep the roads there. How do they pay for it? Sin taxes, surcharges, tolls, and other fees that people won't notice (feds use tools like gas taxes to generate income). Taxing the crap out of strip clubs both creates desired income, while putting down those evil adult entertainment places. Politically it is a double win.

Also, taxation, as long as it is evenly applied to all similar businesses, is pretty hard to get struck down. "free speech" doesn't really have to be free, just not restricted in manners that stop or discourage the free speech from occurring. They aren't taxing free speech, they are taxing people who want to listen to the free speech.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

I am not sure what "citation" you are talking about in Virginia, the costs to register and plate a car in that state are pretty low:

http://www.dmv.virginia.gov/webdoc/citizen/fees.asp

$10 for the title, and under $40 for a car under 4000lbs.

Not exactly sure where you are going.

----

Anyway, the point is this: Roads cost a ton, registering and keeping a car on the road in government fees is often far below what it costs to keep the roads there. How do they pay for it? Sin taxes, surcharges, tolls, and other fees that people won't notice (feds use tools like gas taxes to generate income). Taxing the crap out of strip clubs both creates desired income, while putting down those evil adult entertainment places. Politically it is a double win.

Also, taxation, as long as it is evenly applied to all similar businesses, is pretty hard to get struck down. "free speech" doesn't really have to be free, just not restricted in manners that stop or discourage the free speech from occurring. They aren't taxing free speech, they are taxing people who want to listen to the free speech.

Not "going" anywhere.....be a resident and get pulled over. You'll find out about the "random tax."

Anyhow, you forget about the 60% road taxes, etc in a gallon of gas. That's a HUGE chunk of money to pay for the roads. And, where it properly should be. As a "consumption" tax. The more you drive, the more you wear the roads, the more you pay. The states use those fees too, not just the feds.

And your remark about "not taxing free speech" is just ridiculous. Like the tree falling in the forest; if you have no one to hear it, you have no speech.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Not "going" anywhere.....be a resident and get pulled over. You'll find out about the "random tax."

Anyhow, you forget about the 60% road taxes, etc in a gallon of gas. That's a HUGE chunk of money to pay for the roads. And, where it properly should be. As a "consumption" tax. The more you drive, the more you wear the roads, the more you pay. The states use those fees too, not just the feds.

And your remark about "not taxing free speech" is just ridiculous. Like the tree falling in the forest; if you have no one to hear it, you have no speech.

Ahh, well, if you get pulled over for breaking the law, you pay the fine, whatever that is. It isn't a tax, unless you consider it a tax on being stupid enough to get caught.

The courts in most countries have long held that the governments can tax stuff, pretty much anything they like, provided that the tax is applied equally to everyone that it applies to. The gas tax you mention is pretty much the same thing: The more strip clubs you visit, the more tax you pay. The only time you can ever fight one of these things is when the tax makes it impossible for people to hear the free speech (say like a $1000 tax would). $20 is nothing, considering most people who go to a strip club will drop hundreds on drinks and dancers. It would be hard to find a court to throw out that sort of amusement tax.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Ahh, well, if you get pulled over for breaking the law, you pay the fine, whatever that is. It isn't a tax, unless you consider it a tax on being stupid enough to get caught.

The courts in most countries have long held that the governments can tax stuff, pretty much anything they like, provided that the tax is applied equally to everyone that it applies to. The gas tax you mention is pretty much the same thing: The more strip clubs you visit, the more tax you pay. The only time you can ever fight one of these things is when the tax makes it impossible for people to hear the free speech (say like a $1000 tax would). $20 is nothing, considering most people who go to a strip club will drop hundreds on drinks and dancers. It would be hard to find a court to throw out that sort of amusement tax.

Yea, we can argue how about when a "fine equal to the crime" exceeds, and becomes abusive. $3K for speeding? I think everyone will agree that's abusive. And it's only applied to citizens of VA. I hate to go ad nauseum on this, but YOU brought up VA.

As for the rest, I give up. You simply refuse to see my point. I'll wait for the tax to make it's way through the courts, and be found unconstitutional.
It doesn't directly affect me, and I have to choose my battles.
Gods knows, there are enough battles to keep us hopping.