Euiropean friends- opinions on the French riots?

[TheEnforcer]

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of people from europe, and people from elsewhere as well, about the cause of the riots in France. I've seen a variety of opinions on the matter and am curious as to how you folks see it.

For example. I read this article in the NY Post. Is it an accurate representtation of what has/is happening? Or is it just a country that wants it's new residents to actually become citizens of France and respect and follow french culture and the Arab immigrants don't want to do so at all?Doesn't a country have the right to maintain it's cultural identity when it allows outsiders to become a part of their culture? I would certainly say so. But does France go "too far" in it's efforts to do that?


http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...ists/56963.htm

HOW FRANCE BUILT THE HATE

By STEPHEN SCHWARTZ
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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November 7, 2005 -- RIOTING in Paris by Arab and black African youths, many of them French- born, has shocked the world, as the disturbances spread and the authorities have appeared helpless. Could similar unrest occur in other European countries with large Muslim populations?
Perhaps. But most of the violence has centered in the region of Seine-Saint-Denis, an area I've known well since first staying there in the early '80s. And it seems to me that much of the problem is particular to France.

First, civil disorders are a popular national tradition — the country still takes its revolutionary history seriously. Radical labor strikes are not uncommon, and the rhetoric of socialist protest, with red flags and barricade anthems, is still part of the French cultural landscape in a way no longer true of other European countries. So for disgruntled young people to vent their anger by attacking French police is not unexpected.

In addition, France has special problems with its immigrant population. Unlike Britain (where radicals dominate Islam) or Spain, the Netherlands and Denmark (where small groups of Saudi-financed Islamists operate), France faces a predicament that has more to do with Arab and African nationality and race than with faith.

France is not an upwardly mobile society when it comes to immigrants. It doesn't reward education or entrepreneurship by encouraging fair integration of Arabs or black Africans.

Yes, in the past, a thin, elite layer from the colonies were drawn to settle in France, even if they remained Muslim or were people of color. The French even boasted of their alleged egalitarianism in dealing with visiting black intellectuals like the American James Baldwin or Frantz Fanon (born on Martinique), who were accepted and praised in Parisian literary circles.

But assimilation in France means something very different from assimilation in America. Those who permanently pledge their allegiance to France must pay a much higher price: surrender of one's own identity, and full acceptance of "Frenchness" — meaning exclusive use of the French language, radical secularism, and, typically, abandonment of most attachments to the immigrant's former home.



France also has a Jewish population near 1 million — the world's third-largest, after America and Israel — of which some 70 percent formerly lived in North Africa. Neither Muslim nor Jewish immigrants are particularly comfortable, today, with the effect of French social norms on their cultures. Both are outraged by the new French ban on head coverings in public schools — the Muslim hijab for girls, the Jewish kippah for boys.

France embodies freedom from religion, not religious liberty.

Then, too, France quietly, de facto, abandoned even this vision of assimilation before the close of the 1970s.

After 1962, when France lost the Algerian war of independence, thousands of Arabs who feared being branded collaborators with Gallic imperialism came across the Mediterranean. They were followed by economic migrants, then by refugees from the second Algerian war (pitting the socialist government against ultraradical Islamists, with 150,000 Muslims killed). France now has up to 6 million Muslims, or a tenth of the population — the biggest Islamic minority in Europe outside Russia.

But the vast bulk of these immigrants have been crowded into separate ghettoes (in the Paris suburbs and elsewhere), where they remain permanently in the underclass.

Two other factors in this unfortunate situation are seldom reported abroad.

First, French law enforcement is known for abuse of ordinary folk, and the Paris police in particular have a fearsome reputation.

Second, the suburbs where rioting has exploded, in Seine-Saint-Denis, belong to the so-called "red belt" long ruled by the French Communist Party. In the 1980s, when the Communists began losing the votes of working-class whites to the anti-immigrant National Front of Jean-Marie Le Pen, the Stalinists reacted by trying to outdo the Front in bashing Arabs and Africans.

I vividly recall a then-shocking event at the end of 1980, when Paul Mercieca, the Communist mayor of Vitry-sur-Seine (another flash-point of the current violence) bulldozed a building inhabited by 300 immigrants from West Africa.

Thus, France does not have clean hands on these issues . . . or on others. Its record of capitulation to the Nazis, followed by cooperation during the Holocaust in getting rid of Jews, was abominable, and these chapters in its history have not been adequately accounted for.

At the end of the Second World War, while the United States was preparing to grant complete independence to the Philippines, a colony for which we had expended much blood and treasure, and Britain was abandoning its empire, French soldiers representing a government with Communist members were shooting Algerians en masse. The Algerians had made the mistake of thinking the victory of democracy over fascism would mean freedom for them.

Modern French history, in short, represents a succession of blunders, atrocities, betrayals and lies.

The bill for centuries of arrogance, heedlessness, belief in innate French superiority, compulsory assimilation and tyrannical central government has come due. It will not be small.

Multicultural programs, fair housing laws, welfare schemes, even investment can only be too little, too late. Unfortunately, it is now almost impossible to imagine a just and equitable solution to the problem of France's Arab and Black African immigrants.

The rest of the world can only pray that the violence will end, that Islamist agitation will be silenced, and that the French will reflect on their mistakes. But there can be little hope that such prayers will be answered soon.

Stephen Schwartz is the executive director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism (islamicpluralism.org).

[Zeina-Heart]

I have no comments.. i just wanted to say.. I was in paris when it started... it was like 2 blocks from my hotel me and patricia could hear it.. .. we almost decided to see what was going on, but we ended up going to mcdo's instead then we left two days later.. and now i see this in the news.. and i cant believe i was that close..

[DrGuile]

Originally Posted by Zeina-Heart

I have no comments.. i just wanted to say.. I was in paris when it started... it was like 2 blocks from my hotel me and patricia could hear it.. .. we almost decided to see what was going on, but we ended up going to mcdo's instead then we left two days later.. and now i see this in the news.. and i cant believe i was that close..

You were in Paris and you went to McDonalds... ?

[Timon]

Originally Posted by DrGuile

You were in Paris and you went to McDonalds... ?

Isn't that where all Americans eat when they travel?

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by DrGuile

You were in Paris and you went to McDonalds... ?

amazing, isn't it???

to travel so many miles just to hit something one can get in one's own backyard.
I'll never get the tunnel vision the most Americans show abroad.

[sarettah]

They're rioting over McDonalds ?? Oh shit, this is bad.

[PornoDoggy]

That article is all lies.

It says that the rioting is over economic and social conditions, not Islam.

Everybody knows that if Mohamedans are involved, it must be because of radical Islamic extremists.

I mean, that's like saying the Spanish election results after the Madrid bombing were because of domestic political reasons that had nothing to do with Spaniards being pussies.

biasedliberalmedia!!!!!

[el pres]

They are treated badly and dumped in ghettos, same as what happens in other countries with immigrants, but they are a large enough number to get noticed.

Could the same thing happen in other European countries? Holland, yep.
Germany with turks.

The UK probably not, you get a few incidents but the UK has an ethnic spread in it's immigrants, the West Indians do not get on with the Indian/Pakistan/Bangladeshes, so massive unrest is unlikely.

It couldn't happen in Spain, only a few cities have a large immigrant population.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by el pres

It couldn't happen in Spain, only a few cities have a large immigrant population.

It can't happen here
It can't happen here
I'm telling you, my dear
That it can't happen here
Because i been checkin' it out, baby
I checked it out a couple a times, hmmmmmmmm

And i'm telling you
It can't happen here
Oh darling, it's important that you believe me
(bop bop bop bop)
That it can't happen here

Who could imagine that they would freak out somewhere in kansas...
Kansas kansas tototototodo
Kansas kansas tototototodo
Kansas kansas
Who could imagine that they would freak out in minnesota...
Mimimimimimimi minnesota, minnesota, minnesota
Who could imagine...

Who could imagine
That they would freak out in washington, d.c.
D.c. d.c. d.c. d.c. d.c.
It can't happen here
Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba
It can't happen here
It can't happen here
Everybody's safe and it can't happen here
No freaks for us
It can't happen here
Everybody's clean and it can't happen here
No, no, it won't happen here
I'm telling you it can't
It won't happen here
(bop bop didi bop didi bop bop bop)
Plastic folks, you know
It won't happen here
You're safe, mama
You're safe, baby
You just cook a tv dinner
And you make it
(bop bop bop)
No no no no
Oh, we're gonna get a tv dinner and cook it up
Go get a tv dinner and cook it up
Cook it up
Oh, and it won't happen here
(no no no no no no no no no no no
Man you guys are really safe
Everything's cool).
Who could imagine
Who could imagine
That they would freak out in the suburbs
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool.

And they thought it couldn't happen here
(duh duh duh duh duh)
They knew it couldn't happen here
They were so sure it couldn't happen here
But...

Suzie...
Yes yes yes--i've always felt that
Yes i agree man, it really makes it...yeah...
It's a real thing, man
And it really makes it
(makes it)

Suzie, you just got to town,
And we've been, we've been very interested
In your development,
Since you first took the shots.
Forget it!
Hmmmmmmmmm
(it can't happen here)
(can't happen here)
(can't happen here)


(Frank Zappa)

[TheEnforcer]

This thread isn't exactly what I envisioned it to be!! LOL

[TheEnforcer]

BTW- Serge... sorry I never got that wine. :>((

[el pres]

Originally Posted by sarettah

It can't happen here
It can't happen here
I'm telling you, my dear
That it can't happen here
Because i been checkin' it out, baby
I checked it out a couple a times, hmmmmmmmm

And i'm telling you
It can't happen here
Oh darling, it's important that you believe me
(bop bop bop bop)
That it can't happen here

Who could imagine that they would freak out somewhere in kansas...
Kansas kansas tototototodo
Kansas kansas tototototodo
Kansas kansas
Who could imagine that they would freak out in minnesota...
Mimimimimimimi minnesota, minnesota, minnesota
Who could imagine...

Who could imagine
That they would freak out in washington, d.c.
D.c. d.c. d.c. d.c. d.c.
It can't happen here
Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba
It can't happen here
It can't happen here
Everybody's safe and it can't happen here
No freaks for us
It can't happen here
Everybody's clean and it can't happen here
No, no, it won't happen here
I'm telling you it can't
It won't happen here
(bop bop didi bop didi bop bop bop)
Plastic folks, you know
It won't happen here
You're safe, mama
You're safe, baby
You just cook a tv dinner
And you make it
(bop bop bop)
No no no no
Oh, we're gonna get a tv dinner and cook it up
Go get a tv dinner and cook it up
Cook it up
Oh, and it won't happen here
(no no no no no no no no no no no
Man you guys are really safe
Everything's cool).
Who could imagine
Who could imagine
That they would freak out in the suburbs
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool.

And they thought it couldn't happen here
(duh duh duh duh duh)
They knew it couldn't happen here
They were so sure it couldn't happen here
But...

Suzie...
Yes yes yes--i've always felt that
Yes i agree man, it really makes it...yeah...
It's a real thing, man
And it really makes it
(makes it)

Suzie, you just got to town,
And we've been, we've been very interested
In your development,
Since you first took the shots.
Forget it!
Hmmmmmmmmm
(it can't happen here)
(can't happen here)
(can't happen here)


(Frank Zappa)

O.k, well it could happen here, but that's like saying Canada could invade the USA, possible but extremely unlikely.

[Trev]

I couldn't give a rats ass about the French, but riots and kickings are always fun to watch.

[Zeina-Heart]

Originally Posted by DrGuile

You were in Paris and you went to McDonalds... ?

Do you know how much a crapy resto in paris cost.. no? well you dont want to know either..
i'll give you an idea of there prices.. i got myself some toothpaste when i was there cost me 13 euros.. thats like 18$ ... for TOOTHPASTE!..
but i have to say for the some of the real restos i went to the food was great..

[Zeina-Heart]

Originally Posted by Timon

Isn't that where all Americans eat when they travel?

of course not.. I went to burger king too you know

[Red]

Maybe the French need to be more like the Australians.

CANBERRA: Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on
Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a
bid to head off potential terror attacks. A day after a group of mainstream
Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime
Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists
would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that
some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not
accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by
parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has
Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on
national television. "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there
are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and
another the Islamic law, that that is false.

If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts,
democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to
another country which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better
option," Costello said. Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be
forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked
move to the other country.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who
did not want to accept local values should "clear off". "Basically, people
who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian
values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he
said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spies monitoring the nation's mosques.

[Zeina-Heart]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

amazing, isn't it???

to travel so many miles just to hit something one can get in one's own backyard.
I'll never get the tunnel vision the most Americans show abroad.

i was in europe for 3 weeks.. the only time i had mcdo was in paris cause everything was too expensive.. relax.. i got a taste of there food too

[Zeina-Heart]

Originally Posted by sarettah

They're rioting over McDonalds ?? Oh shit, this is bad.

no no no.. dont worry mcdo.. was safe. and at least 4 blocks from the riot..

[DrGuile]

Originally Posted by Zeina-Heart

Do you know how much a crapy resto in paris cost.. no? well you dont want to know either..
i'll give you an idea of there prices.. i got myself some toothpaste when i was there cost me 13 euros.. thats like 18$ ... for TOOTHPASTE!..
but i have to say for the some of the real restos i went to the food was great..

Actually, I do know, Ive been there a few times... expensive indeed, but still, Id rather go grab one of the homemade sandwiches at a bakery (one of every corner) than freakin' mcdo...

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by DrGuile

Actually, I do know, Ive been there a few times... expensive indeed, but still, Id rather go grab one of the homemade sandwiches at a bakery (one of every corner) than freakin' mcdo...

Same!

I actually love France LOL













hate the fucking French though ;-)))

[el pres]

Originally Posted by Zeina-Heart

Do you know how much a crapy resto in paris cost.. no? well you dont want to know either..
i'll give you an idea of there prices.. i got myself some toothpaste when i was there cost me 13 euros.. thats like 18$ ... for TOOTHPASTE!..
but i have to say for the some of the real restos i went to the food was great..

You can eat cheaply in Paris without going to mcd.. $18 for toothpaste, what the fuck was it, last time I was there a tube of colgate was about $2.

I love France aswell, just tucked into some nice pate. you gotta give it to the French they know how to turn offcuts n offal into someting damn tasty.

[Nickatilynx]

foie gras baby!!

Force feed those bastards!

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

foie gras baby!!

Force feed those bastards!

I surprised myself when I tried it, very very nice indeed.

[Zeina-Heart]

Originally Posted by DrGuile

Actually, I do know, Ive been there a few times... expensive indeed, but still, Id rather go grab one of the homemade sandwiches at a bakery (one of every corner) than freakin' mcdo...

i didnt eat there everyday.. i ate there twice.. but I still think its way to expensive..

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Same!

I actually love France LOL













hate the fucking French though ;-)))

The problem with France is it has all those French there!

[JR]

i can't understand how a city government can allow mobs of people to run around and burn everything in sight for more than 2 weeks. riots generally last hours before they are contained and shut down... not weeks. thats insane.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by JR

i can't understand how a city government can allow mobs of people to run around and burn everything in sight for more than 2 weeks. riots generally last hours before they are contained and shut down... not weeks. thats insane.

The French are waiting for the UK and US to come in and stop it...

[domtheboy]

Originally Posted by Red

Maybe the French need to be more like the Australians.

CANBERRA: Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on
Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a
bid to head off potential terror attacks. A day after a group of mainstream
Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime
Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists
would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that
some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not
accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by
parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has
Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on
national television. "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there
are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and
another the Islamic law, that that is false.

If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts,
democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to
another country which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better
option," Costello said. Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be
forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked
move to the other country.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who
did not want to accept local values should "clear off". "Basically, people
who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian
values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he
said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spies monitoring the nation's mosques.

Halle fuckin luja - some common sense for once. Jesus christ if we're not crying out for some of that in England.

[gold4dinar]

there is no muslim context in this riots as proved the ten thousands arrested : there are only
a social problem as in US the black peeoples or porto-ricans as shown in New Orleans muds.
it is not possible for french gov. to construct a wall between around the suburbs : the arsons are french ,
they are the sons of three generations of migrants ! they are not mexicans or latinos and they are not muslins
but poors without jobs and diploms as there is in US .

[JR]

Originally Posted by domtheboy

Halle fuckin luja - some common sense for once. Jesus christ if we're not crying out for some of that in England.

exactly... assimilate or get the fuck out. thats fair in my opinion. i dont go to france and expect everyone to speak english to me. its up to me to respect the culture, values, history, traditions and language of the place that was kind enough to let me in... or i shouldn't be there. i doubt you would get real far driving down main street Tehran in a 64' impala with gold wire wheels, bumping Dr Dre... so its not like they are all about tolerence and patience and respect for others either.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Timon

Isn't that where all Americans eat when they travel?

She's Canadian, eh.

[slavdogg]

Originally Posted by JR

exactly... assimilate or get the fuck out. thats fair in my opinion. i dont go to france and expect everyone to speak english to me. its up to me to respect the culture, values, history, traditions and language of the place that was kind enough to let me in... or i shouldn't be there. i doubt you would get real far driving down main street Tehran in a 64' impala with gold wire wheels, bumping Dr Dre... so its not like they are all about tolerence and patience and respect for others either.

fuck that, everytime i go to europe i EXPECT them to speak english to me.
if they dont like that, they can kiss my white americanized ass.

I did go to McDs once when i was europe
not to eat, but to see Royale with Cheese on the Menu.

I love food in europe, its fuckin great.
I eat like 5 times a day when i'm there.

[slavdogg]

so Lets see
a North African fugee comes to France, gets welfare or some other free gov money program. Gets a car, gets a place to live and doesnt have to ever work. and Now they're pissed off ??

Socialism WORKS

[sudden]

Originally Posted by Zeina-Heart

Do you know how much a crapy resto in paris cost.. no? well you dont want to know either..
i'll give you an idea of there prices.. i got myself some toothpaste when i was there cost me 13 euros.. thats like 18$ ... for TOOTHPASTE!..
but i have to say for the some of the real restos i went to the food was great..

Are you nuts? Paris is cheap for a large European city. I suggest you dont
visit London or Geneva next if you felt Paris was expensive.

[Zeina-Heart]

Originally Posted by sudden

Are you nuts? Paris is cheap for a large European city. I suggest you dont
visit London or Geneva next if you felt Paris was expensive.

why is europe so expensive.. already euro is expensive to buy with my money .. everything is priced 3 times higher then normal.. i hope the people living there are making a lot of money
*where is geneva?*

[JR]

Originally Posted by Zeina-Heart

why is europe so expensive.. already euro is expensive to buy with my money .. everything is priced 3 times higher then normal.. i hope the people living there are making a lot of money
*where is geneva?*

did you finish high school or what?

[Zeina-Heart]

Originally Posted by JR

did you finish high school or what?

yes.. and i'm french.. so give me a break ok

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Zeina-Heart

yes.. and i'm french.. so give me a break ok

Geneva is in Switzerland Zeina.

[PornoDoggy]

Hmmm ... describes eating at McDonalds while in Paris.

Needs to ask where Geneva is.

Methinks JR was giving her too much credit - if in fact she is ....

ah ... fergitboutit.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Zeina-Heart

yes.. and i'm french.. so give me a break ok

i hope to god you really are 18 as it says by your name. otherwise there are a lot of ways out of this world and for the sake of the gene pool.. you should consider doing the right thing.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Zeina-Heart

yes.. and i'm french.. so give me a break ok

You're French and you have to ask where Geneva is?

Do you realize that you can practically walk to Geneva from the French border and that they speak French in Geneva?

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

[Trev]

Personally, I think Paris is an armpit, I hope they burn the whole place down and only leave a Micky D standing.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Trev

Personally, I think Paris is an armpit, I hope they burn the whole place down and only leave a Micky D standing.

I don't think it's a particularly interesting place either... more of a cliche place for American couples to go pretend they're romantic.

[el pres]

Originally Posted by Trev

Personally, I think Paris is an armpit, I hope they burn the whole place down and only leave a Micky D standing.

I like the place.. the undercurrent of dirt and sleeze mixed with good food, architecture and art makes it interesting. Early morning after being out all night,
plotted up in a pavement cafe watching the city wake up.. lovely.

[Timon]

They should wrap that shit up and rebuild it as a theme park in Florida, will save Americans the trip to Europe

[el pres]

Originally Posted by Timon

They should wrap that shit up and rebuild it as a theme park in Florida, will save Americans the trip to Europe

A new Las Vegas hotel, right next to the one with Venice in..
Put braveheart on the T.V. and stick a red phonebox in the lobby.
The complete Euro experience.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by el pres

good food, architecture and art makes it interesting. Early morning after being out all night,
plotted up in a pavement cafe watching the city wake up.. lovely.

This is why I like Barcelona


Paris is still just an armpit though

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Trev

Paris is still just an armpit though

armpit? more like that sweaty part of waste land between the scrotum and the anus!

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Timon

armpit? more like that sweaty part of waste land between the scrotum and the anus!

Make it after a 10 mile run whilst wrapped in cling film (saran wrap) and you've hit the nail on the head

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Trev

Make it after a 10 mile run whilst wrapped in cling film (saran wrap) and you've hit the nail on the head

After 3 hours of shopping in a Bangladeshi cattle market with an "Indian food accident" in the first hour