Tomin, MikeAi and the rest of you facetious bastar

[JoesHO]

it all stop?

does America have ANY freedoms left byt the end of this run ?

http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action/....asp?item=26179

[JoesHO]

I especially like the part that makes it a crime not to turn someone in LOL

McCarthy?

what the fuck is going on in the heads of these people?

all in the name of protection eh ?

[Bhelliom]

"Mandates a 5-year minimum sentence for any person that commits a drug trafficking offense near the presence of a person under 18 or in a place where such person resides for any period of time. The sentence is 10 years if they are parent. (I.e. a mother that sells her neighbor a joint will get a 10-year minimum sentence, even if her kids were at school at the time).
"

Impressive.... minimum 5 yrs just for drugs AROUND someone who is under 18... not that i'm american... i don't know what other mins are anyways...

[Bhelliom]

"failing to report anyone that gives a joint to someone under the age of 21, and failing to report a college student that is selling marijuana on a college campus."

This pretty much kills all college parties doesn't it?

[grimm]

Originally posted by JoesHO1@Jun 3 2005, 08:34 AM
it all stop?

does America have ANY freedoms left byt the end of this run ?

http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action/....asp?item=26179

reads a lot like current LA state law.

[grimm]

Originally posted by Bhelliom@Jun 3 2005, 08:38 AM
"Mandates a 5-year minimum sentence for any person that commits a drug trafficking offense near the presence of a person under 18 or in a place where such person resides for any period of time. The sentence is 10 years if they are parent. (I.e. a mother that sells her neighbor a joint will get a 10-year minimum sentence, even if her kids were at school at the time).
"

Impressive.... minimum 5 yrs just for drugs AROUND someone who is under 18... not that i'm american... i don't know what other mins are anyways...

In Ohio, not only is that a felony, but under asset forfeiture law, both the mothers and the neighbors houses, or cars could be seized, depending on where the act is deemed to have taken place.

[Lee]

Drugs are, illegal.

This is just enforcing the penalities further.

I see nothing wrong with this personally.

Lets take 'drugs' out of the equation for a second and replace that with 'child porn' is it still a crap law?

[RyanLanane]

I think these are the types of laws that make America have more problems then other countries. I was watching Farenheit 911 again the other day and it reminded me about the difference between us an Canadiens. Almost made me want to be Canadien as sad as that is. Yes, I do love my country.... But we have some serious problems !!

Life in Prison for 2nd offense of selling Marijuana to someone under 18 if you are over 21? So if i am 22 and sold a dime bag to my brother and got busted with a prior offense I could go away for life for that?

I am off every drug in the book... Hell I don't even drink any more! Given the fact that I don't do any of this any more, I know how bad drugs can fuck up your life, and have had drugs fuck up my life in the worst way possible and I still feel this way about this law makes it all the more demeaning to know that this is in legislation !!

And what the fuck is this? "to give someone a bong as a birthday present" lol

[RyanLanane]

Originally posted by Lee@Jun 3 2005, 10:30 AM
Drugs are, illegal.

This is just enforcing the penalities further.

I see nothing wrong with this personally.

Lets take 'drugs' out of the equation for a second and replace that with 'child porn' is it still a crap law?

Lee, TY For the CD just got it yesterday and forgot to drop you a PM - I really appreciate that...

However I have to strongly disagree with you, this is a horrible law!!

We already have millions of Americans in Prison for drug related offenses and it is NOT changing a damn thing with our drug epidemic. We should be looking at the countries who don't have huge drug problems and look at what they are doing ? Besides the one that cut your head off or imprison you for life for your first possesion charge (some Asian countries), the countries that are doing well have less stuff penalties then America.

The part that is more disturbing to me then anything is how they are grouping pot into the category along with other serious drugs. I smoked pot for YEARS and it did nothing.... nothing even similar to the SMALLEST changes in my life harder drugs caused. I still don't think even the heavy drugs should carry such harsh penalties personally.

We need a major drug reform act, but this is the exact opposite direction of where things should be going. And if you are thinking I think this so I could use again, that's not why.. Legal or not I would be using if I chose to - This is just how I feel about the situation.

[Lee]

No probs man glad you got it

We already have millions of Americans in Prison for drug related offenses and it is NOT changing a damn thing with our drug epidemic.

Right, they are in prison for breaking the law. If they dont want to be sent to prison, dont break the law, its not rocket science

We should be looking at the countries who don't have huge drug problems and look at what they are doing ? Besides the one that cut your head off or imprison you for life for your first possesion charge (some Asian countries), the countries that are doing well have less stuff penalties then America.

But, on the same note, there are countries that have high drug related crime rates when compared to the US who have less severe penalties too.

As i mentioned above, drugs are illegal, if you dont want to go to prison, dont commit the crime.

I realize these new penalties may seem harsh to some but lets be honest, its going to deter people from commiting drug related offences, instead of a simple slap on the wrist, they get incarcerated again, for breaking the law.

The part that is more disturbing to me then anything is how they are grouping pot into the category along with other serious drugs. I smoked pot for YEARS and it did nothing.... nothing even similar to the SMALLEST changes in my life harder drugs caused. I still don't think even the heavy drugs should carry such harsh penalties personally.

I have been known to partake in the occasional spliff or two myself but, at the same time, i knew i was breaking the law and, had i been caught, i would have had to deal with the consequences, last time i checked, smoking pot was still illegal. They just upped the penalty for breaking that specific law, again, if you dont wanna risk getting caught, dont smoke pot LOL

We need a major drug reform act, but this is the exact opposite direction of where things should be going. And if you are thinking I think this so I could use again, that's not why.. Legal or not I would be using if I chose to - This is just how I feel about the situation.

I agree with you on the reform thing as do my parents (both of whom work for the drug squad in the UK) the realizm of it is though, reform costs a lot more than tightening the current penalities, its not going to happen any time soon.

[RyanLanane]

This part cried out to me

"I agree with you on the reform thing as do my parents (both of whom work for the drug squad in the UK) the realizm of it is though, reform costs a lot more than tightening the current penalities, its not going to happen any time soon."

True Drug Reform in the long run would actually be less expensive than tightening penalties. Do you have any idea how many people in America are in jail for possesion of very small amounts of hard drugs or for Marijuana? The costs for those prisoners is staggering...

I do believe the over 21 to under 18 law is reasonable for hard drugs... But Pot ? Sorry but I don't know of one person who has been able to say "Man that pot shit really fucked up my life" lol

And I agree witht he already being in prison for drug offense statement you made (they broke the law) but if you look on the books there are some damn ridicilous acts that are violating the law in some U.S. cities that date back to the early 1900's lol ... You see them posted time to time as being humourous but they really are laws. Maybe one day we will be able to say it was funyn when pot was illegal.

I guess bottom line my biggest problem is that the U.S. laws tend to group bottom end users and addicts in with the same group of people who deal kilos of hard drugs and transfer tons of marijuana.

The difference between the two is staggering, as should be the penalties. In our current system - This is not the case with our laws and if passed this would narrow the gap between the two even further. It is saying breaking the law is breaking the law it doesn't matter hwo bad you break the law.

Do you know what that type of thinking will cause in hardcore drug addicts? This is the type of thinking it will cause...

"If i'm going to jail for life for a gram of heroin if I get caught again and I am still going to use heroin... Why not just start selling the shit to support my habit since I will get the same penalty"

Therein lies just one of the many problems with this legislation

[JR]

if you break the law, you go to jail. most people worried about such laws and their implications are those who regularly break them or intend to. that is not societies problem... that is your problem. few are going to sympathize with someone who regularly breaks the law, complaining about the consequences.

the humorous thing and interesting paradox about disscussions on penalties for drug related crimes or the argument for legalization of marijuana is that no one will take your side in the argument for obvious reasons. its like trying to get people to agree that penalties for pedophilia should be litghtened. its not likely to happen. like drug arguments, the majority of people do not want to be associated with either that behavior or those people that defend it. most people are not going to take a public stand on the side of drug users because they dont want to be associated with it. why would they? twisting the argument around by posting crime stats, medical facts or how hemp makes great rope is never going to make the average mother of 3 say "you know what? you're right! i dont care if my kids buy marijuana and smokes it everyday".

as once said by Jack Trout: "in marketing, perception IS the reality" - this is the problem you will always face in your "fight"... and extraneous arguments such as "bush is an asshole" or "the government is coming to get you" have no relation to the common perceptions about marijuana, its use and the perceptions of those who regularly use it.


just my 2 cents.

i really enjoy these conversations because it is a valid discussion and the arguements for the legalization of marijuana are valid. i also admit that when Timon challenged me to prove to him that marijuana was bad, i couldn't. i expected to readily find overwhelming medical evidence and couldn't - which only served to intrigue me more.

that being said, i think that the fight is not about rights, law, medical use etc but about perceptions. and i think that changing the perceptions about the average, daily pot smoker as a slow, lazy, innept slacker is going to be nearly impossible.
... and that is the real battle that should be fought if anyone wants change.

[wig]

Prohibition does not work anymore than envy avoidance does.

You cannot legislate your way to a Utopian society regardless of what political side you are on.

Sure, we live in a nation of laws and finding the perfect balance of what these laws should be is very difficult, if not futile.

Does not mean that there should be no effort and most certainly means that we should not be surprised when things don't work out as intented.

The only idiots in my book are those that spend all there time trying to tell everyone else why they are right as if they have a patent on the truth.

all at once

[RyanLanane]

Good points JR, I find it very difficult to see anyone who could compare Marijuana usage to being a pedophile - But in some people's minds it is the case so you hit the nail on the head with that one.

Some people ARE lazy as all shit when they smoke pot, I know I was.. lol - I hate the shit now and even though Missy smokes and I constantly see the best damn bud on the planet laying around the house I just don't want the stuff (or any drug for that matter).

However, when she gets high... She cleans, she is antsy.. has to get out of the house and do something. She acts like she is on Coke when she is on Pot, more socialable, more relaxed, more outgoing, and less lazy. Just like every drug it affects everyone differently and always will.

I have NO PROBLEMS with it being illegal for ANY drug to be used by someone under 18 including alchohol even though we all know once you are 18 you most likely are going to drink or have had a drink but I can see the rationale behind the law mini age of 21 law at least...

Someone who gets busted for hard drugs nowadays has a felony on their record.. Even if it is a small amount and they don't necessarily do time. Once they are there, it makes it all the more difficult for them to become a part of modern society. Hell McDonalds frowns on hiring people with past drug offenses, I don't know if they even hite them at all. So you tell me how the hell the addict who got popped is going to get his life back together once he gets out.

This is a veryyyyy debatable subject and I could spend all day on it but I have got some work to do so i gotta get outta here, I'm going to check back on this thread later tonight though.

[grimm]

Originally posted by Lee@Jun 3 2005, 10:30 AM
Drugs are, illegal.

This is just enforcing the penalities further.

I see nothing wrong with this personally.

Lets take 'drugs' out of the equation for a second and replace that with 'child porn' is it still a crap law?

excellent point.

people get all fired up when marijuana is brought into the argument. Its a way of spinning the actual argument. Replace marijuana with heroin or crack, and see if the material pisses you off as much.

[grimm]

Originally posted by JR@Jun 3 2005, 11:13 AM
if you break the law, you go to jail. most people worried about such laws and their implications are those who regularly break them or intend to. that is not societies problem... that is your problem. few are going to sympathize with someone who regularly breaks the law, complaining about the consequences.

the humorous thing and interesting paradox about disscussions on penalties for drug related crimes or the argument for legalization of marijuana is that no one will take your side in the argument for obvious reasons. its like trying to get people to agree that penalties for pedophilia should be litghtened. its not likely to happen. like drug arguments, the majority of people do not want to be associated with either that behavior or those people that defend it. most people are not going to take a public stand on the side of drug users because they dont want to be associated with it. why would they? twisting the argument around by posting crime stats, medical facts or how hemp makes great rope is never going to make the average mother of 3 say "you know what? you're right! i dont care if my kids buy marijuana and smokes it everyday".

as once said by Jack Trout: "in marketing, perception IS the reality" - this is the problem you will always face in your "fight"... and extraneous arguments such as "bush is an asshole" or "the government is coming to get you" have no relation to the common perceptions about marijuana, its use and the perceptions of those who regularly use it.


just my 2 cents.

i really enjoy these conversations because it is a valid discussion and the arguements for the legalization of marijuana are valid. i also admit that when Timon challenged me to prove to him that marijuana was bad, i couldn't. i expected to readily find overwhelming medical evidence and couldn't - which only served to intrigue me more.

that being said, i think that the fight is not about rights, law, medical use etc but about perceptions. and i think that changing the perceptions about the average, daily pot smoker as a slow, lazy, innept slacker is going to be nearly impossible.
... and that is the real battle that should be fought if anyone wants change.

Anyone who has ever used drugs knows they are breaking the law. if they get caught, the penalites are severe. mandatory minimums are no new thing, three strike laws arent new either. i dont see how federal drug laws are surprising to anyone. Drugs, however much fun they are, are linked directly to crime, abuse, poverty, disease, etc. Whateer the recreational user might think about their use and its effects, they are drowned out by the majority of non recreational users, traffickers and producers. I have no problem with anyone doing drugs as long as it doesnt hurt anyone but themselves. But that is never the case, because somewhere down the line somebody got robbed, hurt or killed in the process of making the product available. so it is far from a victimless crime, even to the casual user. Ive done my share, for sure, but i always knew the possible repurcussions, and even felt them. So i cant understand why people get up in arms about the inevitable drug laws. Granted, it is an ineffective way to fight the crime associated with an addictive substance, but since when has law enforcement even made a dent in activity?

[JoesHO]

for the record, I do not smokwe weed anymore, havent in 6 months, but I still feel that this a bit overboard, and as far as adding in the other drugs to replace this with. well i strill feel that they should be treated, and not as available, I do not think hammering the user is the way to go about that.

Look at canada and hastings street, for example, or look at amsterdam as another, or australia for tha tmatter, they do not have these problems, or the need to waste valuable resources incarcerating and punishing these people .

I would have to say that having done several drugs personally I can relate to the harm it can do to a person and to society, but this is not the answear.

[PornoDoggy]

realize these new penalties may seem harsh to some but lets be honest, its going to deter people from commiting drug related offences, instead of a simple slap on the wrist, they get incarcerated again, for breaking the law.

Are you on drugs? It's not going to deter anyone from anything.

I've got a great idea. We need a "Prohibition of Drugs" ammendment to the Constitution.

After all, it worked so well in the past ...

[aeon]

Originally posted by JoesHO1@Jun 3 2005, 08:38 AM
I especially like the part that makes it a crime not to turn someone in LOL

McCarthy?

what the fuck is going on in the heads of these people?

all in the name of protection eh ?

You dimwitted abortion mishap. It's a crime in most places to witness a felony and not report it. Dealing is a fuckin' felony.

Selling it around kids should mandate a stiffer penalty or do you prefer to buy yer dope while the crackwhore is bouncing her bastard kid off her knee?

There are times I wish I actually agreed with eugenics...oh do I wish.

[JoesHO]

Originally posted by aeon+Jun 3 2005, 07:22 PM-->