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If it had been 50 years ago, then Iīm sure Russian tanks would already be parked in Kiev by now... but its not 50 years ago - communists have the same problem as fundamentalist muslims... they can not admit defeat, and they think that they can turn back time or atleast make the clocks stop ticking, but nature is cruel to those who hidder a smooth evolution - nature will strike back at those with great force reducing them to whatever doomsday they have forseen, and not part of the human evolution.
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by JoesHO1@Nov 30 2004, 10:43 AM I think I need to interview their women a little closer to figure this out.... got any hook ups over there ?
I have alot of contacts in the ukraine
it seemd those i have spoken to are split in half on which side they are taking in the current debate
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Originally posted by Rolo@Nov 30 2004, 11:02 AM If it had been 50 years ago, then Iīm sure Russian tanks would already be parked in Kiev by now... but its not 50 years ago - communists have the same problem as fundamentalist muslims... they can not admit defeat, and they think that they can turn back time or atleast make the clocks stop ticking, but nature is cruel to those who hidder a smooth evolution - nature will strike back at those with great force reducing them to whatever doomsday they have forseen, and not part of the human evolution.
If you think Communism really has much to do with this situation, you need to read a little bit of history before 1917 ...
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Nov 30 2004, 08:06 AM If you think Communism really has much to do with this situation, you need to read a little bit of history before 1917 ...
Have you noticed how "Putinīs Russia" is and have been building relationships with many of the countries, which were part of the soviet union? Today Russia is making a "modern union", but still with many of the old "deeds", which have little to due with freedom...
Why do think Putin was busy gratulating, while the rest of the world was still waiting for what the Ukraine people had to say? Because Putin is a big supporter of democracy, or because Putin know that if Ukraine starts the move away from the old block ideologies, then change is closer to Russia, and the other states who are trying to "leash" evolution (ex. Belarus)
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
1) I am now, and always have been, suspicious of Putin's ties to the former Soviet regime. I don't trust spooks. Hell, back when Bush I was still a moderate (before becoming Reagan's new Bonzo) I didn't trust him because he ran the CIA - and he's one of ours.
2) That being said - if you think that Putin's actions toward the former Soviet republics is based on his being a Communist, instead of just being a Russian, you're sadly mistaken. On that score, Russian communists didn't do anything more than the Czar's did as far as attempting to dominiate its neighbors.
I believe that the first Russian invasion of the Ukraine took place about 200 years before Marx was born ...
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Nov 30 2004, 08:59 AM if you think that Putin's actions toward the former Soviet republics is based on his being a Communist, instead of just being a Russian, you're sadly mistaken.
The democratic transition is widespread - its in Ukraine, Belarus, Russia etc.
All of the former Soviet republics did not replace every man, woman and child when the Soviet union collapsed, instead they did as evolution have predicted - they adapted to change (same goes for the Romans, when their empire collapsed ;-))) So yes, Putin is Russian, but he has adapted some of the former communist deeds, so he can "leash" the ®evolution... his acts speak louder than words. If It acts like a communist and speak like a communist, then its probably a communist.
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by JR@Nov 30 2004, 10:24 AM Putin is by far, one of the best and most effective leaders on the planet today. He is so bright, that he pulled off a coup détat in front of the world without firing a shot... disguised it as a democratic election and sat back while the whole world applauded him for it and congratulated him and welcomed him aboard. Brilliant.
This is one of the reasons why Iīm "shouting" communist after Putin... he might very well have been the best choice for Russia at the time, but problem is that he will not always be the best choice. At some point he needs to be replaced, and if he has not created a system, where the best man gets elected, then there is a very high risk, that it will be 2nd best man who wins...
What will happen in Russia, if Putin was to loose the next election? Would he be able to loose it?
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by JR@Nov 30 2004, 10:49 AM Putin will not be a candidate in the next election. He is serving his second term right now and the Constitution forbids him to run for a 3rd term.
Thats good to know - world will be rid of both Bush and Putin in 4 years
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Nov 30 2004, 11:59 AM
2) That being said - if you think that Putin's actions toward the former Soviet republics is based on his being a Communist, instead of just being a Russian, you're sadly mistaken. On that score, Russian communists didn't do anything more than the Czar's did as far as attempting to dominiate its neighbors.
I believe that the first Russian invasion of the Ukraine took place about 200 years before Marx was born ...
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Nov 30 2004, 11:59 AM I believe that the first Russian invasion of the Ukraine took place about 200 years before Marx was born ...
More like 1000+ years ago
Kiev was the original Capital of Russia
Originally posted by JR@Nov 30 2004, 01:24 PM ... not to mention the fact that a sizeable % of Russians in Russia today are from the Ukraine - which of course means 1,000,000's of family, friends and relatives that both countries share.
JR, no one gives a fuck about ethnic Ukranians living in Russia. Putin sure doesnt, and i dont either. Whats a more important issue here and for Russia and Putin is that a 3rd of Ukraine are ethnic Russians.
And i highly doubt that millions of Ukranians live in Russia.
Originally posted by $tanDaMan@Dec 1 2004, 02:05 AM
I think you are mistaken there...
Just like Bush in Florida was told (you HAVE to get the votes whatever it takes)
It was done in belarus before, it was done this time in Ukraine, and it Could be done again in russia in 4 years.
Lukashenka had support because he appointed everyone on every level of government in the country.. and if you are not with him.. you are out...
There is no oposition left in the country.. so he can do whatever he wants. And the elections were claimed void, because of too many mistakes, by the international community.. yet he rules on... he says 'the people picked me! and i will stay on as long as they want me'
I agree with you that he is definately a tyrant and I am aware of what he has done to elimate political opposition. But the fact that he does bad things does not mean that he has support ONLY because of that.
Stalin had overwhelming support too... in fact, as you know when he died, most of Russia stopped in its tracks with people wondering how they could go on without him... or if they could at all. This is a guy who murdered 10's of millions of his own people. Lukashenko, just whacks out a few unruly journalists and the occasional politician here and there.
I also think the political dynamics in Belarus are very different than in most places because there has been such an exodus of young people from there in the last decade, leaving the average age of the voters abnormally high. The stats are staggering. Those are exactly the people that find the nationalistic crap appealing.
Serge is the best one to comment on this. I am sure he has better insights that are more than just speculation or guessing.
"- communists have the same problem as fundamentalist muslims... they can not admit defeat,"
Exactly when were the muslims defeated? I must have missed that. Did they sign terms or did they just send a telegram to someone?
I have not seen the Communist Chinese nor North Korean documents of surrender yet. Maybe it was on CNN this morning. I haven't checked yet.
Originally posted by rhymer@Dec 1 2004, 04:44 AM Exactly when were the muslims defeated?
Since democracy began all religions have lost - there are no need for a god anymore telling us what to do, because we have civil law, which put some order in the evolving chaos called life.
The christians, jews and other religions learned this quick, and they integrated with democracy, trying to use it to their advanced - its called to evolve.
However the muslim world is in crisis - they are at a standstill, refuses to accept that the world around them have forever changed. Refuses to see that their god is no longer in charge of laws. Refuses to admit that their old ways have been defeated, and replaced with new ways. They have not adapted to change, so nature have left them behind.
So today you see the muslim world poor even though they have many resources, you see them undereducated even though they were once leaders in science, you see them blowing themself up even though they tell you that islam is about peace.
Why is that? What is it that keeps them separating from the rest of us? Its because they can not and will not admit defeat - that their prophet could be wrong.
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by rhymer@Dec 1 2004, 06:37 AM Oh yeah....the end of communism. When exactly did they throw in the towel? There are about 1.4 BILLION Chinese. A sizeable communist population.
china does not have a communist economy. you are quite a few decades behind on world events.
Originally posted by rhymer@Dec 1 2004, 06:37 AM Could you please explain how we are any different than the crusaders and conquistadores who felt the same way?
Sure, I can :-)
First democracy is not like a religion... democracy is that base, which secures that no dominating group keeps power forever. How is that? Because making societies democratic will fragment larger groups by presenting the many alternatives which are normal in a democracy.
At first democracy will be slow - only taking few members from the larger groups, but this repeats/continues over time, and at some point democracy becomes stable, and the larger groups can no longer attack all the new small groups, because the smaller groups are now the majority.
Democracy secures the freedom to think, and say what you want - this is chaos for islamists, but its what nature uses when selecting who will survive.
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Communism:
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
What, exactly, is your point? Are you saying that the alleged Russian interference in the elections in Ukraine are related to some form of resurgence of Russian communism?
Your cut 'n paste definition of Communism, like your Kruschev quote, proves that you can Google.
Wow. I'm impressed.
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I am dissappointed on the news coverage in the US about this situation. It is as important as the events that happened through out Eastern Europe and Russia the past 15 years - yet we only get a few minutes at a time on the news.
It is exciting times for the Ukraine - embracing the ideas of freedom, democracy, open markets while turning away from the past is an amazing process.
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Dec 1 2004, 08:06 AM What, exactly, is your point? Are you saying that the alleged Russian interference in the elections in Ukraine are related to some form of resurgence of Russian communism?
Your cut 'n paste definition of Communism, like your Kruschev quote, proves that you can Google.
Wow. I'm impressed.
There was no need to google. The K quote was not google. The other was in my files. And your point was?
Originally posted by Mike AI@Dec 1 2004, 08:09 AM I am dissappointed on the news coverage in the US about this situation. It is as important as the events that happened through out Eastern Europe and Russia the past 15 years - yet we only get a few minutes at a time on the news.
It is exciting times for the Ukraine - embracing the ideas of freedom, democracy, open markets while turning away from the past is an amazing process.
It is too embarrassing for Bush after his dodgy elections. Particularly his first.
"embracing the ideas of freedom, democracy, open markets while turning away from the past is an amazing process."
Can I get an Amen brothers and sisters. Praise the Lord and pass the amunition.
11-30-2004
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