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He comes out hard for a Constitutional Amendment against Same Sex marriage. An issue that plays extremely well to the right and get's barely a reaction from most of the moderate left. But in there, there has to be the realization that a constitutional amendment is probably the most rigorous process within the constitution and has a very poor chance of succeeding.
According to our World Book Encyclopedia (1989 edition...lol...When the kids were in middle school) There had been at that time over 7000 constitutional amendments proposed. Of those proposed, only 33 were passed through Congress to the states for ratification and of those, only 26 had been passed.
In other words, there is no way in hell that a constitutional amendment will go through by the election. The process will barely have started. The only part of the process that will occur between now and November is the proposing of the amendment and the debating of the amendment. Both of which offer tons and tons of grandstanding photo ops and speechmaking opportunities for all the members of Congress and for the presidential candidates themselves. A perfect issue for an election year.
In addition, imho, there is no way a Constitutional ban on same sex marriage will go through. I think that ultimately people will decide that all marriage laws and such should best remain at the state and local level and that eventually you will see same-sex marriage. It is a ways off yet, but it will come.
Since there is no chance of it being anything dangerous before the election and the probable extinction of it after the election it becomes the perfect non-issue issue. He can't go wrong on it, he can stand and be as right as he wants on it knowing that there is no way he will leave any permanent damage.
Guy is shrewder than I was giving him credit for, or Cheney and company is
Why are you amazed? Shit, the announcement today was as predictable as the silence of the so-called libertarians on this issue. This is an issue of vital importance to the core base of Bush's support. This was just phase two of the campaign kickoff he started last night.
I don't think this issue will go away after the election.
Hell, I wouldn't even bet that there WON'T be a constitutional ammendment passed someday, although before the election is a pretty safe bet.
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Its not like a big issue Bush was looking to carry... its being forced on him by liberal activist judges...
We have gone over 200 years without the need for and Amendment banning Gay Marriage....
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 25 2004, 02:13 AM Its not like a big issue Bush was looking to carry... its being forced on him by liberal activist judges...
We have gone over 200 years without the need for and Amendment banning Gay Marriage....
Have you got a shortcut on your keyboard for buzzwords and phrases like "liberal activist judges"?
We have indeed gone over 200 years without the need for an ammendment banning gay marriages. Back in the good old days, we used to (at various times) imprison them, lock them up in mental institutions, etc., etc., etc.
Until very recent times the very acts involved in expressing their sexuality were illegal - and yet (liberal activst, I suppose) judges FINALLY got around to recognizing those laws as in violation of the spirit of the constitution. Just like ownership of human beings as property, and just like the wholesale denial of civil and basic human rights to persons of specific races, we don't do that any more.
Come to think of it, the term "liberal activist judges" was applied to members of the judiciary who found segregation illegal. Kinda fitting, IMHO>
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There is no law stating that gays cannot get married.
What is being fought over is the definition of the word marriage.
It has always meant "a union between a man and a woman".
So the gays aren't fighting laws, they're fighting a fucking dictionary about an historical term.
There's no law stating that I can't be a Wiccan, but I suppose since many people don't see his as a "religion", I should go raise cain in Washington and demand that it be specifically put into the Constitution that I *am* able to be Wiccan?
Pffft.
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I had a bunch of thoughts, but it just doesn't matter.
W has put me in a situation where I MUST vote Democratic for president, the first time in my life I am dong so, this from someone who agreed with Rush Limbaugh 95% of the time during the Clinton years.
Bush is an idiot, a puppet of the religious right, and the worst thing to happen to the US in my lifetime.
Horrible use of the Constitution. Leave such issues up to the states.
Doesn't have a chance of hell of passing and Bush knows it. Rove and team are sitting in front of the computers trying to figure out how to squeeze out an electoral vote victory and making moves accordingly. One of the primary keys to a Bush victory is getting the far right to come out to vote in large numbers.
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Originally posted by OldJeff@Feb 25 2004, 06:25 AM Bush is an idiot, a puppet of the religious right, and the worst thing to happen to the US in my lifetime.
Right on….couldn ‘t have said it better.
I’m dating a woman who is republican AND Catholic. I find this so amazing but our dynamic is really nice. In the beginning we debated a lot about politics. Now she’s singing a different tune. This last stance to change the Constitution took a lot of balls but in my opinion he’s a fucking coward anyhow. NEVER have I ever felt scared when someone got elected. Rarely do I rant about politics.
If he gets reelected then the US is more fucked up then I thought.
I wonder how long it will be before we start seeing private islands and new countries popping up. Lol- oh but damn the US can claim we have weapons and invade us.
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These are the same charges the right makes against Clinton. I seem to remember Mike AI saying the Clintons are nothing but left-pandering politicians, for example.
If Kerry gets elected, the right will probably be saying he is the worst thing to happen to this country in their lifetimes ... especially if he successfully gets any healthcare legislation through.
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This one scares me. Not that it would pass - but, the audicity of someone to purpose it as a constitutional ammendment ...... it has very little to do with government. It has more to do with rights that the constitution is about protecting.
If someone wants to change something - how about "All men are created equal"
I am not a man..... - so I guess I was not created equal..... hahahahahaha
For the record, a recent ABC survey found that 38% of Americans favor an amendment that bans gay marriages. 58% say that states should make their own laws. 55% say that gay marriages should be illegal.
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Originally posted by Sharpie@Feb 25 2004, 09:23 AM This one scares me. Not that it would pass - but, the audicity of someone to purpose it as a constitutional ammendment ...... it has very little to do with government. It has more to do with rights that the constitution is about protecting.
If someone wants to change something - how about "All men are created equal"
I am not a man..... - so I guess I was not created equal..... hahahahahaha
And this is exactly the point IMO. It’s not because I’m a lesbian or anything else. I just think that all people should have the right to choose and that if you create a platform for one group it should go to everyone. Like Carrie pointed out it’s the terms/words we’re talking about. If anything needs to be changed it the American language and exactly how it’s defined in old documents.
This too is my point when I brought up that whole satellite invasion deal where I felt like I was tricked into it. It still pisses me off.
I don’t know what I am, spiritual, eclectic- Wicca, Tao, Zen, Kabbalah, it’s all good but let me even try to get air time to sell something. Meanwhile an idiot can sell holy water or rape people of their money. Funny how they misuse the name of G-d. Do you notice how Bush also jumped on that bandwagon to publicly announce that he was going to see Passion of the Christ? No doubt a media package was sent out to support it.
Oh damn I think I had too much java.
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I do not base my assesment of Bush on this one issue.
We invaded Iraq and have nothing to show the invasion was justified.
We have the largest deficit and the largest government in history.
Individual rights are at thier lowest ever.
We are no safer than we were before 9/11 and every other day a government scare tactic is thrown to the public to feed on.
The Attorney General holds daily paryer sessions, ordered the covering of a marble breast, is quoted as saying the US has no King but Jesus, which is big news to the 49% of Americans that are not Christian, and lost an election to a corpse.
Originally posted by OldJeff@Feb 25 2004, 09:45 AM Individual rights are at thier lowest ever.
Bullshit. Not even close.
You think individual rights were better when women couldn't vote, when you had to own land to vote, when blacks and some whites were enslaved, and when children worked in factories?
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Originally posted by OldJeff+Feb 25 2004, 09:48 AM-->
QUOTE (OldJeff @ Feb 25 2004, 09:48 AM)
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Originally posted by Colin+Feb 25 2004, 09:51 AM-->
QUOTE (Colin @ Feb 25 2004, 09:51 AM)
Quote:
Originally posted by -OldJeff@Feb 25 2004, 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 25 2004, 05:05 AM There is no law stating that gays cannot get married.
What is being fought over is the definition of the word marriage.
It has always meant "a union between a man and a woman".
So the gays aren't fighting laws, they're fighting a fucking dictionary about an historical term.
There's no law stating that I can't be a Wiccan, but I suppose since many people don't see his as a "religion", I should go raise cain in Washington and demand that it be specifically put into the Constitution that I *am* able to be Wiccan?
Pffft.
Pffft indeed.
Yes, marriage has historically been defined as between a man and a woman.
Mental illness has historically been defined, until fairly recently, as demonic possession.
Again, until fairly recently, women historically could not vote, could not own property, and had very little protection of their own body under the law.
Until fairly recently, folks who practiced Wiccan were burned at the stake.
I could go on - but in cases like these, as well as countless others, the ignorant railed against extending equal protection under the law to those groups - and they probably cursed liberal activist judges in the process.
Gay people are not demanding a constitutional ammendment that "allows" them to get married. Gay people are simply asking for the same rights that others enjoy.
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At least the topic is before the eye of many and its gonna take an assination of one of the Fab 5 to get the world to clammer for our rights I suppose :-)))
It will happen in my lifetime, and we will have protected rights at some point, I believe this.
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I think gay people should have the right to civil unions. Don't call it marriage that drives the religious people nuts. Marriage is nothing more than a civil contract.
I agree that Bush is doing the political tap dance.. drawing attention to something he can get photo ops on and keeping people minds off the lack of WMD in Iraq. He is in Charlotte today working his angles.. Who wants to bet they find Osama during the re-election campaign?
Women fought for their civil rights and eventually got them.. Blacks the same.. Gay will also be the same.. only a matter of time. I don't can't even imagine a constitutional amendment on this issue..
I have always voted Republican.. my money likes the Republican party.. but the Democrats are looking pretty Republican to me here lately with the way the current President has been spending money. I always disliked the Democrats for the 'take from the rich give to the poor' mentality.. I'm not sure what I'll do in the next election..
I stand up an applaud all of you for being supportive!!
Watch for an upcoming show that I start filming tomorrow when George Bush comes to Charlotte, this will be a great show and I will announce on here when it is ready to air!
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It really is a stroke of genius. The success of the ammendmant is irrelevant. The christian right is going to be out in droves come election time, and he'll be in for another 4 years.
Originally posted by chodadog@Feb 25 2004, 11:14 AM It really is a stroke of genius. The success of the ammendmant is irrelevant. The christian right is going to be out in droves come election time, and he'll be in for another 4 years.
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Originally posted by chodadog@Feb 25 2004, 11:14 AM It really is a stroke of genius. The success of the ammendmant is irrelevant. The christian right is going to be out in droves come election time, and he'll be in for another 4 years.
I don't think it's that simple.
The real question is whether the Kerry campaign can get Democrats to show up on election day. There are more Democrats than Republicans. They just usually don't vote as much.
It's early.
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The US is a nation of LAWS. Right now STATES DO DETERMINE THE DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE!!! It is not a Federal Issue!! The definition of marriage in all states deals wth a contract between a MAN and a WOMAN!
It is not States Legislatures who are changing laws, its a few JUDGES!! We cannot have a few people in power as judges just creating the law as they see fit. ( What happens if Right wing religious right get judges in and start creating their own laws?)
It is just like the Judge in Alabama who did not want to take the 10 Commandments down - evnetually he was forced out of office, because we are a nation of laws - not of idividuals who can do what they want.
You want to have gay marriages - go to your state and get the law changed!! ( I know they tried in Hawaii or someplace, and people were worried about the full faith and credit clause)
Of course this will not happen, because the majority of Americans are against gay marriages. I doubt it would even pass in California...
We cannot have judges just making up law - they have the least amount of contact with the people. This is why we have legislatures. To PASS and changes laws. Judges are to merely rule on the laws that are passed.
Activist judges of any stripe are dangerous!! This is the big issue, not whether gays can marry or not.
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i dont understand this. as i understood things, Bush was "proposing an amendment" - why is it not his responsibility? i think i am missing something because i don't understand the connection to judges and his proposal.
Originally posted by JR@Feb 25 2004, 12:38 PM i dont understand this. as i understood things, Bush was "proposing an amendment" - why is it not his responsibility? i think i am missing something because i don't understand the connection to judges and his proposal.
i really think Bush needs to go now.
JR a President cannot propose an Amendment, only someone in Congress can do it. Bush can merely support it through the bully pulpit.
I could careless about gays getting married... I think they deserve to be just as unhappy as straight people.
As I posted earlier activist Judges are what I have a problem with. We have 3 branches of gov't for this reason. The tyranny of judges creating laws need to stop. All the liberals are fine with it, but when shoe would get on the other foot, they would be the first to orginize some million profesional protestor march.
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So, Mike. You're saying leave it up to the States as it is now and leave it out of the Constitutional Amendment?
That's what I say.
I'd even be in favor of an amendment guaranteeing the rights to same-sex marriages which I think is keeping in the spirit of the Bill of Rights and the other amendments. I do recognize that the majority opinion is against it which must be considered and I always try and appreciate that. This is not much of an issue for me.
For example ,though I disagree with the pro-life folks I completely understand where they are coming from and can appreciate how important of an issue it is to them. The definition of when life begins in a is arbitrary. Do I know better than they? No.
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 25 2004, 12:46 PM I could careless about gays getting married... I think they deserve to be just as unhappy as straight people.
Haha.
Ban marriage!
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 25 2004, 12:46 PM I could careless about gays getting married... I think they deserve to be just as unhappy as straight people.
PEARL!
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 25 2004, 12:32 PM It is amazin reading this....
The US is a nation of LAWS. Right now STATES DO DETERMINE THE DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE!!! It is not a Federal Issue!! The definition of marriage in all states deals wth a contract between a MAN and a WOMAN!
It is not States Legislatures who are changing laws, its a few JUDGES!! We cannot have a few people in power as judges just creating the law as they see fit. ( What happens if Right wing religious right get judges in and start creating their own laws?)
It is just like the Judge in Alabama who did not want to take the 10 Commandments down - evnetually he was forced out of office, because we are a nation of laws - not of idividuals who can do what they want.
You want to have gay marriages - go to your state and get the law changed!! ( I know they tried in Hawaii or someplace, and people were worried about the full faith and credit clause)
Of course this will not happen, because the majority of Americans are against gay marriages. I doubt it would even pass in California...
We cannot have judges just making up law - they have the least amount of contact with the people. This is why we have legislatures. To PASS and changes laws. Judges are to merely rule on the laws that are passed.
Activist judges of any stripe are dangerous!! This is the big issue, not whether gays can marry or not.
Yours is the typical rhetoric of reaction. Substitute the word "black" for "gay", replace the word "marriage" with "integration" or with "equal rights", and your post could have been a stereotypical letter to the editor in the 1950s through the 1970s. The blather about states rights and the braying regarding "liberalactivistjudges" is EXACTLY the same.
Over the past 30 years the laws against sodomy and the others used to restrict the actions of two consenting adults have been overturned. A panel of judges in Massachusetts has determined that there is no basis in law to deny same-sex couples the rights that so-called normal couples have. Nobody is "attacking" the rule of law - you're just whining because the rulings don't seem to be going your way.
These things happen - just like Brown vs Board of Education caused changes in other areas. This is not evil-doers and "liberalactivistjudges" imposing their will on the people - this is just part of the natural process of a society maturing changing.
Welcome to the 21st Century. Deal with it.
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 25 2004, 02:17 PM This is not evil-doers and "liberalactivistjudges" imposing their will on the people - this is just part of the natural process of a society maturing changing.
(Question for PD based on this statment but everyone else too)
Do you believe that society is "progressing"? If so, what is the final goal?
It could be that "our" current ideals of "equality" are nothing more than current cultural trends. On the other hand, maybe there is such a thing as Progress but if so what dictates that this is so.
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In my lifetime (I'm breathing down on 51) I've seen major changes in the way society regards people.
I recall listening to the "grownups" on my Mom's side of the family fret about JFK "turning America over to the Pope", yet last election's inclusion of Lieberman as a candidate caused barely a ripple.
I'm old enough to recall the Mike AI/Carrie/et al of an earlier generation rant about the "liberalactivistjudges" who decided that seperate but equal was a crock of shit and that American citizenship wasn't a racial classification.
The academic distinction between "cultural norms" and "progress" seems to be an artificial (or academic, which is often the same thing one.
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 25 2004, 02:55 PM Yes, I do.
In my lifetime (I'm breathing down on 51) I've seen major changes in the way society regards people.
I recall listening to the "grownups" on my Mom's side of the family fret about JFK "turning America over to the Pope", yet last election's inclusion of Lieberman as a candidate caused barely a ripple.
I'm old enough to recall the Mike AI/Carrie/et al of an earlier generation rant about the "liberalactivistjudges" who decided that seperate but equal was a crock of shit and that American citizenship wasn't a racial classification.
The academic distinction between "cultural norms" and "progress" seems to be an artificial (or academic, which is often the same thing one.
PD gay marriage is not about civil rights.... there is no lynching of gays going on in the streets of America.
This is simply social engineering coming from activist judges. This is the only way the liberal agenda can see the light of day. If liberals come straight out and put their agendas in the form of legislation it rarely ever passes.
PD you may be happy now, but those who love by judicial fiat, will also die by it. What happens when judges who don't share your views start creating and making their own laws? It goes both ways.
If we as a society, as a Nation want to change the laws to allow gay marriage, then it should be a legislative issue - there should be debates, and lets have a vote. Judges should not force it down the countries throat by "finding" rights in the Constitition.
It is just like Roe Vs Wade. I am for abortion, I think its none of the Gov'ts business, but the Roe vs Wade ruling is a legal joke.
PD if the US is ready for gay marriage - then get your local represenatives to push it.... We all know this would fail, because the majority of this Country is not ready for gay marriage.
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Originally posted by Vick+Feb 25 2004, 03:10 PM-->
QUOTE (Vick @ Feb 25 2004, 03:10 PM)
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 25 2004, 02:55 PM Yes, I do.
In my lifetime (I'm breathing down on 51) I've seen major changes in the way society regards people.
I recall listening to the "grownups" on my Mom's side of the family fret about JFK "turning America over to the Pope", yet last election's inclusion of Lieberman as a candidate caused barely a ripple.
I'm old enough to recall the Mike AI/Carrie/et al of an earlier generation rant about the "liberalactivistjudges" who decided that seperate but equal was a crock of shit and that American citizenship wasn't a racial classification.
The academic distinction between "cultural norms" and "progress" seems to be an artificial (or academic, which is often the same thing one.
For some reason much of mankind's circle of empathy seems to get larger and larger even to the point of extending it to animals. Maybe some day we won't kill insects either. Maybe one day we'll have "People for the Ethical Treatment of Viruses".
But why?
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