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Couple Charged with Distributing Obscene Materials
Aug 7, 2003 1:22 pm US/Eastern
Pittsburgh (AP) A California couple and their company have been indicted by a federal grand jury for allegedly distributing obscene materials in what federal authorities said would be a series of prosecutions after nearly a decade of lax enforcement.
Robert Zicari and Janet Romano, both of Northridge, and their company, Extreme Associates, were indicted for allegedly distributing three videos to the Pittsburgh area through the mail and over the Internet, U.S. Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan said Thursday.
Buchanan said lack of enforcement has led to the proliferation of violent and degrading images such as distributed by Extreme Associates. One of the videos depicts rape and murder, she said.
Obscenity is not protected speech under the First Amendment, she said.
Authorities raided Extreme Associates in April and took videos and financial records, she said.
Zicari and Romano, who also go by the names Rob Black and Lizzie Borden, have not been incarcerated but have surrendered their passports and must appear at an arraignment hearing in Pittsburgh on Aug. 27.
Court documents did not name an attorney for Zicari and Romano and they could not immediately be reached for comment. Home phone listings could not be found for them and a telephone call by The Associated Press to Extreme Associates and an e-mail were not immediately answered.
The charges carry a maximum penalty of 50 years in prison and a $2.5 million fine for Zicari and Romano and probation and a $5 million fine for the company, Buchanan said.
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Sykk, I think they have been brewing for a fight with the feds for a long time.... well now they have one, and it might get ugly!!
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 7 2003, 05:04 PM Sykk, I think they have been brewing for a fight with the feds for a long time.... well now they have one, and it might get ugly!!
no it won't. The feds will cluck "we got 'em" and move on.
Remember all those CP raids, what did they ever produce besides a couple headlines?
Although it's the envelope pushers that make everyone else a little safer...
Remember, if not for Larry Flynt pushing the envelope and having the MONEY to fight early on, most of us might not be here right now.
Sorry for being an ignorant but... "One of the videos depicts rape and murder" are we talking fantasy or real snuff here? Being in EU I simply can't imagine this being "only" fantasy and talking 50 years and a total 10 mill. fines?
Yes this is true...almost all billings doing extreme have closed over the last year...only about 4-5 are still up and these are only doing their own sites - no thirdparty anymore.
Man I was checking out your sites, they made me want to go throw up....
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 8 2003, 09:39 PM Man I was checking out your sites, they made me want to go throw up....
I feel the same way about big titted blond sites ;-))
what I find odd is Ashcroft is cackling under his breath like Snidely Whiplash about catching those evil pornographers, meanwhile the Catholic Church isn't being stormed by the feds forcing them to hand over the child molesting priests...
Bill Maher even touched on this issue last night on his show, something to the effect of the war on terrorism has been completed all the terrorists are gone, let's hunt pornographers. (Obviously with much sarcasm)
I think this is a issolated incident. This is not part of a grand scheme to get all porno peoople. The extreme people did stupid things, and purposely flouted the law, and standards - they wanted to get prosecuted. Simple as that.
If this was a move against porn in general, they would have made MANY more arrests. You would have seen porn people from accross the country get napped....
1 small company in thousands?
I hope extreme wins, it would help the rest of us sleep better at night.... but rob and his wife are idiots - so I also hope they end up bankrupt.
If you fuck with the bull enough, eventually you will get the horns!
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Everyday there's people pushing the limit on what is extreme. However in a case dealing with simulated rape and did I hear it right, simulated snuff films? Is there any question that this stuff is obscene? I'm all for protecting the first amendment and protecting individual's rights but come on even this is a bit past the limits of any decent society.
Toolz you must be some stick in the mud, right wing zealot!!
You are right... and while I have no seen the videos in question, I doubt they are things we would consider ok.
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 9 2003, 11:12 AM
You are right... and while I have no seen the videos in question, I doubt they are things we would consider ok.
What? You mean you're judging something you haven't seen? ;-)
The reason hitlercroft and his mery band of stormtroopers haven't gone after anymore than Extreme is that they have been embarassed in the past by fucking up the kiddie porn crackdowns/sweeps. They figure this is a bit more of a slam dunk. What REALLY makes you think if they get these guys that they aren't going to come after everyone. Let's be honest, we all have things on our sites that are considered obscene somewhere.
While I'm not a fan of simulated rape and snuff myself, where do we draw the line on FICTIONAL depictions. Have you seen the movie "Irreversible"? How about "Ken Park"? Are we solely to judge these movies based upon how pretty the cinematography looks or how good the acting is? "The Accused" earned an Academy Award nomination for Jodie Foster. Are we talking about quality?
Why is Rob Black's fictional depiction of rape any more obscene than Gaspar Noe's ficitonal rape in "Irreversible"? Because it shows the penetration? Becasue Rob Black's movies are shot on a video camera while Gaspar Noe's are shot in 35 mm?
This isn't directed specifically at you, just questions in general ;-)
How is Rob Black's fake snuff any worse than the Guinnea Pig films that I can rent from my local video store? How are they any worse than a "Friday The 13th" film? If it's sick to revel in the dead body aspects of Rob Black's films, why is it not so sick to revel in the dead bodies of the latest rapper or pop actress getting skewered by Jason, Freddy or Leatherface?
I've seen some sentiment on boards about being happy towards this problem Extreme had, yet I wonder if these same people would have told Larry Flynt to stop pushing the envelope in the 70's had they been around?
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Aug 9 2003, 04:41 PM Why is Rob Black's fictional depiction of rape any more obscene than Gaspar Noe's ficitonal rape in "Irreversible"? Because it shows the penetration? Becasue Rob Black's movies are shot on a video camera while Gaspar Noe's are shot in 35 mm?
While I have to admit the only movie I've seen that you mentioned is "Accused" (I lead such a sheltered life...), IMHO the line is drawn when the depiction is there SOLELY to arouse sexually.
I have naked pictures of my kid when he was 4 (goodness knows I'd never take them in for developing in THESE days....). Put those in a family album and it's quite different than putting them on a pedophile site - but they're STILL the same pictures. It's the INTENT that matters. To compare a scene in a mainstream movie to one in an XXX movie isn't talking apples and oranges.
So should we even stop at rape? Should it be OK to have a hardcore porn movie about a 12 year old sex slave as long as it's just a depiction? Bestiality - is it OK if you're just depicting it in an XXX movie?
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Originally posted by Peaches@Aug 9 2003, 04:16 PM So should we even stop at rape? Should it be OK to have a hardcore porn movie about a 12 year old sex slave as long as it's just a depiction? Bestiality - is it OK if you're just depicting it in an XXX movie?
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
In the mainstream movies, we had movies like "Lolita" about a 12 year old seducing an older man. I agree it's a slippery slope, but when we start prosecting on thoughts (intent) we start down that obligatory slippery slope.
Actually, bestiality is depicted in a lot of european films
I realize it's hard to draw a line, but the line does indeed change over time. Look at what larry Flynt crossed the line with? Now, it's considered pretty tame. Then it was quite shocking.
What happens though if we start going backwards and suddenly a woman in a two piece bikini is considered shocking and obscene?
Yup, agree to disagree, but I think we'll agree you'll have a lot of fun with the jager tap we're looking to provide in Vancouver (and no pissing this time...not in public anyways...)
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Aug 9 2003, 05:45 PM What happens though if we start going backwards and suddenly a woman in a two piece bikini is considered shocking and obscene?
Erm - there ARE some women that are obscene in 2 piece bikinis - I'm speaking from experience.
Quote:
Yup, agree to disagree, but I think we'll agree you'll have a lot of fun with the jager tap we're looking to provide in Vancouver (and no pissing this time...not in public anyways...)
;-)))
Pissing in private is an activity I wholeheartedly endorse. Don't tell, but I even do it myself! If you're going to have a Jaeger tap, I think you've just guaranteed Shok's attendance.......
Sykk I am comfortable making preliminary decisions based on things I have read about a video, or from info from people I trust who have seen them.
Violence and sex should not go hand in hand in my opinion, and neither should making a girl vomit with a penis. I am sure some people are into it, but there should be some lines drawn.... those might not be where they should be drawn, but to many people in this country it is.
Sykk you seem very angry.... take a few deep breaths, maybe dress in some nice summer colors, and you may feel better!
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There is an incremental tie between sex and violence though Michael, the two are perhaps unfortunately but assuredly tied together.
A normal, mentally healthy adult doesn't let the distinctions between the two blur past what is safe for both or all parties involved, but if there were no relation then you would not have bondage, s & m, hell, you probably wouldn't see reality videos where girls were degraded, since that's just another step away from violence.
Extreme certainly goes beyond what I would consider to be tasteful or popular, and I do think it would be interesting to see some real numbers on just how many takers they have for their brand of entertainment... my guess is way fewer than any of us would estimate... and that their main motivation for making those trashy movies is to satisfy their own ego and vanity.
Extreme certainly goes beyond what I would consider to be tasteful or popular, and I do think it would be interesting to see some real numbers on just how many takers they have for their brand of entertainment... my guess is way fewer than any of us would estimate... and that their main motivation for making those trashy movies is to satisfy their own ego and vanity.
BINGO!!!
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So let the prosecutor pick on them Michael, it's like a cop on the highway looking for someone to pull over. You know that if he's already got one when you go by, you're ok for the time being.
No doubt KK..... I do hope they get off on the obscenity charges.... that would be like raising the speed limit back up to 70 from 55.
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Mike, I'm not angry at all. Remember, I'm the peacenik ;-)))
I just have no problems with a healthy debate about where we should/could draw the line. I'm more amused than angry.
Well, ok, I am angry that my tax dollars are going to fund the persecution of Extreme Associates when I'd much rather see it spent on more important matters.
The fact that we still don't know if Saddam or Bin Laden are dead or alive or ??? is more important to me than a sick fantasy video.
Hey Sykk I am with you.... I think the feds should be worrying about bigger issues. But lets face it, extreme was looking to get popped - they did everything possible to get noticed.
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 9 2003, 05:17 PM Violence and sex should not go hand in hand in my opinion, and neither should making a girl vomit with a penis. I am sure some people are into it, but there should be some lines drawn.... those might not be where they should be drawn, but to many people in this country it is.
Actually to many people YOUR sites go WAY too far already and plenty of people think you should be jailed for the sites that YOU run.
Emotions and personal preferences should be left out of any discussion regarding the legality of porn. In case of simulated snuff or rape I say look at Hollywood, if mainstream movies can do it then pornographers should be able to do so too. You might say it's distasteful to combine it with sex, some people might say that your sites are distasteful and should be illegal too. Want to ask for a review on one of those Christian web boards?
Who gets to decide what goes and what doesn't?
Having said that, if you know something is illegal and you do it anyway then you deserve getting busted for it.
Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 10 2003, 12:22 AM Hey Sykk I am with you.... I think the feds should be worrying about bigger issues. But lets face it, extreme was looking to get popped - they did everything possible to get noticed.
I agree.
I wonder if Hollywood will make a movie about Rob Black in 10-15 years? ;-)))
To me it's not the simulation of violence that is the problem. It's the basic mentality and the fact that these videos glorify abuse of women. Hell, a lot of stuff that most of us wouldnt consider extreme glorifies abuse of women too. Hitting/Slapping, name calling, forced sex, unconscious sex, fish hooking, vomiting, choking... what makes those erotic?
I am open minded, but i dont understand why any kind of abuse (not talking about the sensation of pain, which many find erotic, but truly mean spirited abuse) is ok.
It saddens me that in the minds of the majority, what most of us do is considered to be the same as faux rape/murder and real abuse sites.
Last edited by Hooper at Aug 10 2003, 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Hooper@Aug 10 2003, 12:40 AM It saddens me that in the minds of the majority, what most of us do is considered to be the same as faux rape/murder and real abuse sites.
Originally posted by Toolz@Aug 10 2003, 08:25 AM However it was the type of crime being refrenced and not shown for pleasure, so please name all these movies show snuff in them?
Death for entertainment? Ever heard of horror movies??
I think there has been a surge recently of teen horror movies which have absolutely no other purpose than to watch people die for entertainment...
Am I missing where these mainstream movies everyone's referring to were hardcore porn movies that had 100% sex and violence - and basically nothing else?
Originally posted by *KK*@Aug 9 2003, 02:54 PM There is an incremental tie between sex and violence though Michael, the two are perhaps unfortunately but assuredly tied together.
A normal, mentally healthy adult doesn't let the distinctions between the two blur past what is safe for both or all parties involved, but if there were no relation then you would not have bondage, s & m, hell, you probably wouldn't see reality videos where girls were degraded, since that's just another step away from violence.
Extreme certainly goes beyond what I would consider to be tasteful or popular, and I do think it would be interesting to see some real numbers on just how many takers they have for their brand of entertainment... my guess is way fewer than any of us would estimate... and that their main motivation for making those trashy movies is to satisfy their own ego and vanity.
Based on prior history in law enforcement...specifically a the VICE arena I think you HIGHLY underestimate the appeal of these sites/videos.
You wouldnt believe the type of person and/or the abundance of those that would pay to see it. Either excitement or shock value ---the reason doesnt matter.
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Originally posted by *KK*@Aug 9 2003, 07:59 PM So let the prosecutor pick on them Michael, it's like a cop on the highway looking for someone to pull over. You know that if he's already got one when you go by, you're ok for the time being.
I can tell you why hes worried about it.
Its these fuckers that have the potential to ruin it for us all.
Its not enough that working in adult entertainment gets you painted by the media as a child molester. Then along comes people like this that add in the degradiation of women to the debate.
Personally Im sick of companies like Xpix that rip people off under the guise of and adult company and stupid fucks like TeeJay who go pick up a a 16 year old at the Greyhound bus station -- bang her and video tape her and then PUT IT UP ON THE FUCKING WEB.
"Oh my partner was supposed to have gotten her ID and 2257."
Bull fucking shit! Your dick got hard -- you fucked it and then you decided to make some money off of it.
You all know [and if you dont you will--soon enough] that Im all for pushing the envelope, but this is a business for some of us.
Fraud concerning credit card processing has already got the industry into this fucked up billing mess but NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lets see if we can fuck up things from the other angle by seeing just how far the 1st amendment will cover our ass.
Do us all a favor Teejays of the world. Just go buy a hooker and save yourself and the rest of us a lot of time and grief.
If your that hard up come to Atlanta and I will personally buy you the best $5 piece of ass I can find at the Clairmont Lounge.
__________________
We are putting the bastards of this world on notice; greed and corruption will always be met with "a voice made of ink and rage."
"Never try and be like anyone else" - Hunter S. Thompson
"The truth is the truth no matter how you try and package a lie" - Shellee Hale
Originally posted by Toolz@Aug 10 2003, 11:46 AM Are those Snuff films? That's what I'm asking for, you claim there's all these mainstream snuff films, so what are they?
Why don't you explain what is the difference between a movie like Final Destination, a movie with no story, no artistic value and no other purpose than to watch a series of gruesome deaths and a SIMULATED snuff movie.
And while you're at it also argue why one should be legal and the other should be illegal :-)
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Aug 9 2003, 12:41 PM While I'm not a fan of simulated rape and snuff myself, where do we draw the line on FICTIONAL depictions. Have you seen the movie "Irreversible"? How about "Ken Park"? Are we solely to judge these movies based upon how pretty the cinematography looks or how good the acting is? "The Accused" earned an Academy Award nomination for Jodie Foster. Are we talking about quality?
Why is Rob Black's fictional depiction of rape any more obscene than Gaspar Noe's ficitonal rape in "Irreversible"? Because it shows the penetration? Becasue Rob Black's movies are shot on a video camera while Gaspar Noe's are shot in 35 mm?
The difference between the two is in the Miller test.
“Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest.
“Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law.
“Whether the work, taken as whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.”
The key phrase above is "the work, TAKEN AS A WHOLE, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value"
Putting a 10 minute rape scene in the middle of a 2 hour motion picture is a big difference from producing a video that's nothing but simulated rape and snuff, when you "take the work as a whole" into consideration, odds are the motion picture will not be considered obscene whereas what Extreme produced would be considered obscene.
Why do you think Playboy, Hustler, and all the other major magazines spend money on sports and fashion articles that they know damn well nobody reads?
My guess is so that their "work as a whole" will have some value other than getting people off, so they can pass the Miller test if they end up in court.
08-07-2003
If you're going to have a Jaeger tap, I think you've just guaranteed Shok's attendance.......
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