Eye opening poker stats

[TheEnforcer]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...er/050719&num=0

Since there are very few, if any, reliable studies available that demonstrate the percentage of winners -- and big winners -- from among the tens of millions who play the game, you are probably wondering how I "know" this. Well, as it turns out, there is one group that can -- and does -- track this kind of stat, though they are not about to publicize the results. That group consists of online poker site management, two members of which revealed to me at the WSOP that what intuition suggests must be true -- only 8 and 7 percent, respectively, of all players on their sites finish the year in the black. And I'm not talking about deep in the black, either. The vast majority of those winners are not about to give up their day jobs.

If you think about it for a moment, the percentages have to be even lower for people who play primarily at casinos, because then you have to subtract the cost of travel to and from, meals, lodging, dealers' tips -- not to mention those "profits" that somehow find their way into slot machines or those huge piles of chips blackjack dealers and roulette operators always have sitting in front of them.

-------------------------------------------------------

An interesting article overall I suggest you check it out if you like poker.

From a business point of view I would LOVE to know what kind of money those sites make. A successful poker site must make some serious bank. Tough comeptition to get noticed I am sure, but man the rewards must be nice. tough for all of us stateside cause I wouldn't touch running one with a 120 foot pole. I'd be more worried about prosecution from that than any porn site I would ever run.

[Nickatilynx]

Well duh?

Sammy Farha is a great player from BC.

Big cash game player.And he has been known to say "If I win the bracelet I'll be nearly even this trip"

And he was only slightly exagerrating.

Look at MasterP / pornstar2pac. He considers himself a good player. But I have read threads where he is crying over nearly being broke.
I have won tournys' but then lose it in money games ( and I only play $2/4 cash games AT MOST. I play tourny's from$5 entry to high hundreds though.

(Interesting thing is how many MAJOR players ( both from this industry and on ladbrokes , the top European players like those from the "Hendon mob") I have sat at a table with when the entry was say $30)

Its a hobby. Its enjoyable , but realistically, like all hobbies it costs money.

I am happy that I'm still playing on tourny win money on PP , but I need a decent couple of wins soon or I won't be. (Have bubbled out in my last 5)

[Bhelliom]

From what I understand. Winning or losing as a player is a secondary consideration for a poker site.

Since the money at the online tables primarily just changes hands from one player to the other, I can't really imagine that the online rooms care all that much about who wins or loses.

The money from those places are made from the rake at the table and that is a constant thing. they just take their money off the top regardless of who wins or loses.

From a Business perspective, this is great cause the "house" is making money either way, and doens't have to worry as much about programming and adding all kinds of different things to track individual stats.


From a player perspective, I like this line of thought because it would lead to think that becuase the rooms don't really care who wins or loses you can be fairly sure its a fair game.

[Nickatilynx]

I was so close to opening a poker room a few years ago.

Had opinion that it was not considered gambling in Canada but merely hosting a community. (As no book was being made)

...............Fucking philipinos ( Not Anthony)

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jul 19 2005, 11:53 AM
Well duh?

Sammy Farha is a great player from BC.

Big cash game player.And he has been known to say "If I win the bracelet I'll be nearly even this trip"

And he was only slightly exagerrating.

Look at MasterP / pornstar2pac. He considers himself a good player. But I have read threads where he is crying over nearly being broke.
I have won tournys' but then lose it in money games ( and I only play $2/4 cash games AT MOST. I play tourny's from$5 entry to high hundreds though.

(Interesting thing is how many MAJOR players ( both from this industry and on ladbrokes , the top European players like those from the "Hendon mob") I have sat at a table with when the entry was say $30)

Its a hobby. Its enjoyable , but realistically, like all hobbies it costs money.

I am happy that I'm still playing on tourny win money on PP , but I need a decent couple of wins soon or I won't be. (Have bubbled out in my last 5)

Haven't played poker online at all lately and have played sporadically offline at the casino. Just haven't had the money to do so lately and do it properly, especially as I prefer playing No Limit cash games when I can though I do enjoy the limit hold em games the casino offers at times. Played in a few tourneys but not a lot. Have had some monster bad beats. I have played a bunch of home games though (once or twice a week for quite a while) and those are quite easy to mop up on. Pay top 2 to 3 spots depending on how many people are playing with the lowest spot either getting their money back or double it. But that just pays for a night or two of drinking if I do come out ahead with a win, pays fort that night of drinking if I do ok and finish in the money each time but not a win, or a loss of only $10-$30 if I have a bad night (which isn't often with that group).

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jul 19 2005, 12:10 PM
I was so close to opening a poker room a few years ago.

Had opinion that it was not considered gambling in Canada but merely hosting a community. (As no book was being made)

...............Fucking philipinos ( Not Anthony)

You could try and do it now. Would definately be harder to do than it would have been a few years ago, but if you could get it going decently you could do well with it. You certainly have the resources to try and make a run with it.

[DrGuile]

those stats really seem fishy (like most stats)

What's the rake at most poker sites? 2-3%? Seeing as 97% of the money stays in the player's poket (although, since its 3% of every pot, that number isnt quite right... that 3% is like interest...)

The 7-8% who are in the black would have to be making out like bandits...

doesnt sound right

[Bhelliom]

Yeah but if you read the article it mentions that while the numbers are probably higher from pure winnings... the number of people that pocket those winnings is around 7-8%

the rest of them blow their winning at other things like craps and blackjack.. things that cost more money... not to mention the hotels and food and tips and everything else

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by DrGuile@Jul 19 2005, 12:47 PM
those stats really seem fishy (like most stats)

What's the rake at most poker sites? 2-3%? Seeing as 97% of the money stays in the player's poket (although, since its 3% of every pot, that number isnt quite right... that 3% is like interest...)

The 7-8% who are in the black would have to be making out like bandits...

doesnt sound right

You have to consider that MANY people play tournaments. If they were all playing cash games I would agree that they are likely too low.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by Bhelliom@Jul 19 2005, 12:50 PM
Yeah but if you read the article it mentions that while the numbers are probably higher from pure winnings... the number of people that pocket those winnings is around 7-8%

the rest of them blow their winning at other things like craps and blackjack.. things that cost more money... not to mention the hotels and food and tips and everything else

Actually the numbers are from online poker sites so it is pure winnings. He then goes on to compare those numbers with things you have to take into consideration for offline poker places.

[Nickatilynx]

Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Jul 19 2005, 09:25 AM
Have had some monster bad beats.

1. Nobody cares. If your complaints about bad beats affect anyone at all, it is just to make them happy it didn't happen to them. Remember: They're glad it happened to you.

2. If you are a frequent victim of bad beats -- if you receive far more bad beats than you hand out -- that means you are doing something right. In fact, you are doing the most right thing you can do in poker: You are getting your money into the pot as a favorite. In the long run, this will pay off. I know it doesn't seem like it, but it will.

3. Instead of bemoaning your ill fortune, try thinking about how you played the hand in question. Was there something you could have done differently and better to avoid the bad beat, or at least lessen its impact? You'd be surprised how much you can improve your game by doing this. It's one of the things that separates the great from the near-great, and the near-great from the broke. Believe it or not, even Hellmuth does this. Well, at least that's what he claims


;-))))

[TheEnforcer]

Hahahahaha..

[Rolo]

Anyone who are gambling and want to stay in "black" needs to do what I did - stop when you are ahead... you can´t beat a system, that was made to profit on you ;-))

[RyanLanane]

Originally posted by DrGuile@Jul 19 2005, 09:47 AM
those stats really seem fishy (like most stats)

What's the rake at most poker sites? 2-3%? Seeing as 97% of the money stays in the player's poket (although, since its 3% of every pot, that number isnt quite right... that 3% is like interest...)

The 7-8% who are in the black would have to be making out like bandits...

doesnt sound right

No actual statistical data but I can 'ASSURE YOU' that the top .5% of players (yes 1/2 percent) that are in the black for the year playing on-line poker account for at least 50% of all on-line poker winnings, I would like to put the number closer to 75% but I don't want to stretch...

The 7-8% seems a 'tad' low, I would of guessed in the neighborhood of 10% ... And yes, I ahve played a litle poker When I had my database on pokertracker a long time ago and I played 6 + hours EVERY day I showed roughly 30% in the black and those were small sample sizes, many hit and runners included, etc .. So the impact of long term rake on the player as well as the hit n runners affect that figure alot.

Professional on-line players who win $10,000 over the course of the year typically will also make about $5-$8,000 through "rake-back" offers. A rake back offer will typically pay you 20-25% of 'your rake'

Your Rake = $Value of Pot/#Players = X (Your share of rake provided)

So if your table averages $3.00 in rake per hand with 60 hands per hour.. That's $180 taken off the table per hour... Your share of what you put in what theoretically be $18.00 with 10 players.. And Rake BAck would be $3.60 if you get 20%

[MissEve]

Originally posted by Rolo@Jul 19 2005, 02:42 PM
Anyone who are gambling and want to stay in "black" needs to do what I did - stop when you are ahead... you can´t beat a system, that was made to profit on you ;-))

Poker is different. I have been a profitable player for the past two years. The beauty of online poker is that you don't have to beat the house, you have to beat other players. The house doesn't give a shit who wins. I am more familiar with stats from tourneys and single table tourneys but if you look at something like pokerprophecy.com you can see the stats of certain players. I was AMAZED when it came out and so many players had played hundreds of games and lost most of them.

If you look at the stats of sit and go players the BEST players win 50% of them time. I know I'm not an especially great player, I'm just patient and tight/aggressive. I would lose my ass playing in casinos. There are so many fish online willing to keep depositing day after day that it makes it easy for some of us to win

[RyanLanane]

This is making me miss Poker... And I ahven't played in 2 months.. Damn you all, LOL !!!

I would be O.K. If I could quit going to the $5/$10 NL Tables when my bankroll is a thousand or two.. LMFAO !

Haven't played much but cash games the last two years, used to play sit-n-goes and mtt's when they just came out, but after 5 hours of play and one stupid mistake or rebluff at someone holding A high who is stubborn knocks you out of a mtt trny or two.. leaves a bad taste

[Nickatilynx]

Originally posted by RyanLanane@Jul 19 2005, 01:07 PM
This is making me miss Poker... And I ahven't played in 2 months.. Damn you all, LOL !!!

I would be O.K. If I could quit going to the $5/$10 NL Tables when my bankroll is a thousand or two.. LMFAO !

Haven't played much but cash games the last two years, used to play sit-n-goes and mtt's when they just came out, but after 5 hours of play and one stupid mistake or rebluff at someone holding A high who is stubborn knocks you out of a mtt trny or two.. leaves a bad taste

You have to be a special sort of sicko to play MTT LOL

I have had my wife talking me down from a ledge before now after having been knocked out on final tables.

"You are totally insane ,how can you be pissy? you won 5k!!!"

;-)))

* on tournys I am around 6k up
However...I shall never ever play money games again though , it doesn't suit my personality (ie being likely to go on full fucking tilt LOL) About 6k down
7 card stud in particular I do very well nut the biggest tournys i can find are only $20 buy ins

I just ran through my balances , deposits and withdrawls on PP and ladbrokes.(and factored in a couple of minor deposits elsewhere)

[RyanLanane]

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