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'Israel has responded defiantly to United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan's condemnation of a security barrier it is building in the West Bank. Israel's Foreign Ministry said Saturday the project is vital to the security of the Jewish state and that it will not be halted by international criticism.
The Israeli Foreign Ministry issued a strongly worded statement saying the separation barrier now under construction in the West Bank is irreplaceable and that building will continue.'
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The fence has proved effective in stopping terrorism....
If mexicans were crossing the border to blow themselves in in LA nightclubs, the US would be doing the same thing on the Mexican border.
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with that in mind, maybe if we were trying to extend the US borders of california lets say another 100 miles deep into mexico, maybe they WOULD be suicide bombing us.
LA doesnt need terrorits, its filled with enough ignorant murder.
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Nov 29 2003, 11:16 AM ahhh..that law....
Serge, it's hard to stay sharp when idiots like this guy are all you have to argue with. Let's start arguing with each other instead. What can we argue about? How about chess?
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Nov 29 2003, 09:27 AM FletchXXX, I say the wall is very good,
as it protects poor opressed 200,000,000 arabs from overpowering agression of 5 mln Jews...
c'mon, show some compassion to our arab brothers!
I agree about the wall Serge.
I say build it.
I just dont want to see it used as a means to gain land.
As you can guess I am no Zionist
hehehe
but if it will help protect lives, I guess its in a countries interest to do so.
Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Nov 29 2003, 11:30 AM I say build it.
I just dont want to see it used as a means to gain land.
Is this going to be a portable wall?
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Or, I could simply label you an idiot who is either playing devil's advocate because he's afraid to shut off the computer and go outside, or is hopelessly uneducated and misinformed.
You have already labeled me an idiot, and thats why this conversation can serve no real purpose any longer.
If youd let that guard down we might be able to have an intelligent conversation, but I am going to assume youd much rather just call me an idiot and go about your day, since that was your first reaction to my thread.
If you dont like the thread, dont post in it.
Last edited by Fletch XXX at Nov 29 2003, 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by KRL@Nov 29 2003, 01:36 PM Good neighbors always have fences or walls.
struth, good fences make for good neighbors.
.... except for Canada & the US. Largest stretch of undefended border in the world. Certain other countries could learn a lot from that.
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Originally posted by CDSmith@Nov 29 2003, 02:03 PM .... except for Canada & the US. Largest stretch of undefended border in the world. Certain other countries could learn a lot from that.
do you think Canada and its citizens would get upset in any way if we wanted to put a big wall divinding the two?
Well sure, but when's the last time a Canadian citizen crossed the border and blew up a sidewalk cafe in Chicago?
It's been like, ages.
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Originally posted by CDSmith@Nov 29 2003, 02:10 PM Well sure, but when's the last time a Canadian citizen crossed the border and blew up a sidewalk cafe in Chicago?
It's been like, ages.
I wasn't even trying to say they would, could, or have.
Was just curious if you think it would offend your people.
I think it would offend most neighboring countries.
I pointed that out for the value of the relationship that can happen between two or more countries when the peoples and the governments are willing to forget past wars and disputes, and forge a way to live side by side in peach and cooperation.
Think of the commerce that could go on between Israel and it's hostile neighbors, if only they would take a page from our book. We've got history, remember the war of 1812? We all seem to have gotten over it.
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Originally posted by CDSmith@Nov 29 2003, 02:14 PM Think of the commerce that could go on between Israel and it's hostile neighbors, if only they would take a page from our book. We've got history, remember the war of 1812? We all seem to have gotten over it.
Remember it? I carry the blood of folks who died in it. That as well as the battle Of Chalmette a couple years later.
And I agree with you.
There will NEVER be any peace between any of them.
They hate each other, and always will.
I got a jew friend who gets drunk and talks shit about Palestinians like an old redneck would a black guy.
Their ignorance is as hilarious as the fundamentals of zionism.
Originally posted by CDSmith@Nov 29 2003, 02:14 PM
Think of the commerce that could go on between Israel and it's hostile neighbors, if only they would take a page from our book. We've got history, remember the war of 1812? We all seem to have gotten over it.
You are forgetting that Islam will not permit Jews and Isreal to exist in the region side by side. Isreal exists today because of its own military might and the support of the United States. Without either, every man, woman and child would have been slaughtered long ago.
You dont have deep rooted ethnic and religious hatred between the US and Canada where the very force binding Canadian society is the idea that all Americans must die and Canada is involved in a "holy war" were "victory" and gaining entry to "paradise" means giving your life trying to kill Americans until all Americans are killed and/or expelled from America.
There are no parallels between historic differences concerning US/Canada and "getting along" that apply as useful analogies to the Middle East and Isreal.
Originally posted by Mike AI@Nov 29 2003, 11:42 AM The fence has proved effective in stopping terrorism....
If mexicans were crossing the border to blow themselves in in LA nightclubs, the US would be doing the same thing on the Mexican border.
I'm with Mike on this one.
And I think it's a pretty fuckin' sad state of affairs when the jews (or anyone) have to build a wall to protect themselves from all of the assholes of the world.
They do have to protect themselves because history has shown noone else will do it for them!!!
They know only to well that history repeats itself!!!!
Just think of how fast the united states would waste Canada or Mexico if they were as hostile to US as the people in the middle east are to the jews. (no offense Canada and Mexico in this post anyways)
Also, without going into too much detail and anthropological/sociological history, i believe that it also goes against the very nature of man for any people to be satisfied to live as Palestinians do and the issue extends far beyond religion. In addition to the complications brought on by an intollerant religion, they will also refuse as a people to always be so far down the rungs of the social order... To always be brushed aside, disrespected and having the terms of thier existence dictated to them by an outside force or forces. Its not something any American would accept... yet any American would suggest that they should accept it. Its not really a question of "getting along". Its a question of stifling and suppressing those human qualities in all of us, namely ego and pride, that crave respect and that drive us to excel, exceed and achieve.
Palestinians, if consistent with history, will never accept a peace that does not secure them a decent amount of respect from neighboring countries and that does not move them up the ladder of the social pecking order. Power respects power. Arafat is an icon because he took Palestinians briefly down that path when he interrupted a UN meeting and gave a speach where after, the palestinian authority was granted "obsever status" at the UN and recognition on the world wide political stage.
I dont hate people. I am not racist. I just believe in this case that both states cannot and will not exist peacefully, side by side. History has proven this to be true and to date, neither side has exhibited any intention of doing so. I believe that Isreal can only survive through force and military might and believe that once you remove that from the equation, Isreal will cease to exist.
It does not bother me that there is a fence. Its an obvious thing for Isrealis to do everything to protect their own existence and give themselves every advantage. Not doing so, would empower its enemies. Of course it will cause tension. So do suicide bombings. So does living next to people whos very religion - that single strongest bonding force in their society and their own reason for living tells them that you must be destroyed.
Palestinians should be greatful that they are just building a fence. I would argue that it would be more humane than destroying them which seems to be the next best alternative. Life is not fair. It never was. Survival of the fittest has been the purveiling rule of human existence as well as with every other living organism on the planet for billions of years. Its not gonna change anytime soon.
'Jewish claims to this land are based on the biblical promise to Abraham and his descendants, on the fact that this was the historical site of the Jewish kingdom of Israel (which was destroyed by the Roman Empire), and on Jews' need for a haven from European anti-Semitism. Palestinian Arabs' claims to the land are based on continuous residence in the country for hundreds of years and the fact that they represented the demographic majority. They reject the notion that a biblical-era kingdom constitutes the basis for a valid modern claim. If Arabs engage the biblical argument at all, they maintain that since Abraham's son Ishmael is the forefather of the Arabs, then God's promise of the land to the children of Abraham includes Arabs as well. They do not believe that they should forfeit their land to compensate Jews for Europe's crimes against them.'
Palestinians should be greatful that they are just building a fence. I would argue that it would be more humane than destroying them which seems to be the next best alternative. Life is not fair. It never was. Survival of the fittest has been the purveiling rule of human existence as well as with every other living organism on the planet for billions of years. Its not gonna change anytime soon.
You said a mouthful here except destroying your enemies is usually not the next best thing, it's usually the first best thing. To do otherwise is something new to the species!!!!
Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Nov 29 2003, 03:32 PM 'Jewish claims to this land are based on the biblical promise to Abraham and his descendants, on the fact that this was the historical site of the Jewish kingdom of Israel"
"If Arabs engage the biblical argument at all, they maintain that since Abraham's son Ishmael is the forefather of the Arabs, then God's promise of the land to the children of Abraham includes Arabs as well."
Are YOU saying that Arabs claim that religion plays no role in the Palestinian/Arab side of conflict? Islam, Islamic beliefs and holy sites in the area play no role?
I categorically reject the idea that peace comes through understanding and tollerence... and that we can all "just get along" if we would show some patience and understing. It has never been true in history.
The desire for peace is ALWAYS a weakness exploited by those who hunger for power, control and respect. History is littered with the ruins of civilizations and empires who disarmed themselves believing this not to be true.
Are YOU saying that Arabs claim that religion plays no role in the Palestinian/Arab side of conflict? Islam, Islamic beliefs and holy sites in the area play no role?
I do believe i QUOTED someone else, so NO, I am not saying anything.
And besides, how could I speak for Arabs?
I dont even KNOW any Arabs.
Are you saying it DOES?
Please refernce the religious document they use to back up their argument if so.
Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Nov 29 2003, 03:54 PM And this is what it ALWAYS comes to.
Are you drunk?
Why dont you pretend I am and go on with your day.
if it "always" comes to that in your opinion, then you would have to admit that the single consistent commonality to those remarks is you.
maybe it "always" comes to that because you start making no sense, while claiming you do... and people are at a loss for a reasonable explaination that does not involve substance abuse or alcoholism since you seem to be capable of making sense most of the time.
Looks like the Brits were making a few deals to try and stir shit up a few years back
hehehe
'By the early years of the 20th century, Palestine was becoming a trouble spot of competing territorial claims and political interests. The Ottoman Empire was weakening, and European powers were entrenching their grip on areas in the eastern Mediterranean, including Palestine. During 1915-16, as World War I was underway, the British High Commissioner in Egypt, Sir Henry McMahon, secretly corresponded with Husayn ibn `Ali, the patriarch of the Hashemite family and Ottoman governor of Mecca and Medina. McMahon convinced Husayn to lead an Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire, which was aligned with Germany against Britain and France in the war. McMahon promised that if the Arabs supported Britain in the war, the British government would support the establishment of an independent Arab state under Hashemite rule in the Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire, including Palestine. The Arab revolt, led by T. E. Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia") and Husayn's son Faysal, was successful in defeating the Ottomans, and Britain took control over much of this area during World War I.
But Britain made other promises during the war that conflicted with the Husayn-McMahon understandings. In 1917, the British Foreign Minister, Lord Arthur Balfour, issued a declaration (the Balfour Declaration) announcing his government's support for the establishment of "a Jewish national home in Palestine." A third promise, in the form of a secret agreement, was a deal that Britain and France struck between themselves to carve up the Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire and divide control of the region.'
i apologize for not knowing you were so sensitive. my bad.
you posted a quote presumably to make a point. now you are saying you didn't and you just posted a seemingly relevent quote on the exact topic we were discussing which coincidentally was timed in a way that it could be mistaken as a rebuttle to the assertion that Arabs/Islam/Palestinians have religious motivations as well.
my bad. i thought you were trying to make a point. i guess i overestimated you.
11-29-2003
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