Hellpuppy, I am so glad you were wrong....

[softball]

The brothers left the big screen tv's where they belong. In the living rooms of those who bought them.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

The brothers left the big screen tv's where they belong. In the living rooms of those who bought them.

Wonder what would've happened had the vote went the other way?

And on this one, I am happy to be wrong.

Hope I'm wrong about his entire tenure.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Wonder what would've happened had the vote went the other way?

And on this one, I am happy to be wrong.

Hope I'm wrong about his entire tenure.

I agree with you on a lot of stuff. But in this case, I gotta say I hope you are wrong as well. I believe you will be wrong.
However, the first two years are gonna be a mess. All the crap that will be forgotten about by the fourth will have to be dealt with.

First big test. And its a biggy. Missiles in Poland. Russia is rattling its sabers and Obama needs to react. Its a pretty good check of his mettle and that is exactly what Putin is testing.

[miz_wright]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

I agree with you on a lot of stuff. But in this case, I gotta say I hope you are wrong as well. I believe you will be wrong.
However, the first two years are gonna be a mess. All the crap that will be forgotten about by the fourth will have to be dealt with.

First big test. And its a biggy. Missiles in Poland. Russia is rattling its sabers and Obama needs to react. Its a pretty good check of his mettle and that is exactly what Putin is testing.

As much as there are significant bits of his platform that I am not super-keen on, I will say this: he has spoken plainly and repeatedly that it will take time to get out of the current quagmire, and it will suck a lot, and that ppl are going to hate some of the things he's going to do. And I think he's right. In order to make resolve issues, changes must be made that won't always be popular and will cause dissension, even among the staunchest of his supporters - primarily 'cos they thought the change was for everyone else.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by LizAEBN

...primarily 'cos they thought the change was for everyone else.

*nods in agreement *

The perceived change that seems to be the primary focus of Obama haters is that he (and the Dem Congress) will raise taxes. If the net result is a stronger more vibrant and growing economy then they'll be making more money, which will more than offset any increase in taxes.

Personally, I agree with Mike South on what needs to be done. Unfortunately it has a snowball's chance in hell of ever coming to fruition.

[Hell Puppy]

We shoulda cast write in votes for Mike South.

He more or less touchs on my whole problem with Obama and liberal democrats in general. It really isn't so much that I'm against adding another couple or three points to my taxes.

Instead, my issue is government bloating. Make them use what they've already got efficiently before they come asking for more. They work for us, not vice versa.

[softball]

A nice rant by MS, but it fails to address the real issue of creating wealth. Apart from a sentence or two about bringing jobs back home due to lack of taxes. It won't work. It is a big and dangerous world out there and a lot of knives out for America. On the flip side, there is a huge desire to get the US economy back on track to regain prosperity. Americans have become lazy and were living beyond their means. Kind of like a lot of porn guys. Now its time to pay.
Iraq was the number one biggest economic and social disaster in the history of America. It changed history and exposed the weak underbelly of the US economy and more importantly the US military. It has emboldened Russia as was witnessed in Georgia. China has risen from a third rate overpopulated country to an economic powerhouse that owns huge amounts of America. They sucker punched America economically. They are devious beyond belief. India is now a nuclear and power and a force to be reckoned with in space. Wow. Who would have thunk this in 1998? Just ten short years.
What to do? Export or die. Importing cheap goods is sucking the lifeblood out of all of us. Consume fewer imported goods. Make a conscious effort to buy less junk until we can produce the junk and even export the junk.
When I say we, I do mean Canada and the US. We are the largest trading bloc in the world. Between our two countries we are nearly self sufficient in energy and food production. This partnership needs to be addressed, fine tuned and bureaucracy demolished. We have common pollution and food issues that need to be addressed. We are locked in a power grid that is fragile and needs protection. The list goes on. Nafta works pretty well, but I have yet to see what Mexico contributes to this apart from a big market for Wal mart which in turn just sells them Chinese made goods.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

A nice rant by MS, but it fails to address the real issue of creating wealth. Apart from a sentence or two about bringing jobs back home due to lack of taxes. It won't work. It is a big and dangerous world out there and a lot of knives out for America. On the flip side, there is a huge desire to get the US economy back on track to regain prosperity. Americans have become lazy and were living beyond their means. Kind of like a lot of porn guys. Now its time to pay.
Iraq was the number one biggest economic and social disaster in the history of America. It changed history and exposed the weak underbelly of the US economy and more importantly the US military. It has emboldened Russia as was witnessed in Georgia. China has risen from a third rate overpopulated country to an economic powerhouse that owns huge amounts of America. They sucker punched America economically. They are devious beyond belief. India is now a nuclear and power and a force to be reckoned with in space. Wow. Who would have thunk this in 1998? Just ten short years.
What to do? Export or die. Importing cheap goods is sucking the lifeblood out of all of us. Consume fewer imported goods. Make a conscious effort to buy less junk until we can produce the junk and even export the junk.
When I say we, I do mean Canada and the US. We are the largest trading bloc in the world. Between our two countries we are nearly self sufficient in energy and food production. This partnership needs to be addressed, fine tuned and bureaucracy demolished. We have common pollution and food issues that need to be addressed. We are locked in a power grid that is fragile and needs protection. The list goes on. Nafta works pretty well, but I have yet to see what Mexico contributes to this apart from a big market for Wal mart which in turn just sells them Chinese made goods.

I agree with you on production of goods, imports versus exports, etc. I just disagree on how to get there.

It's all about the jobs and who does the labor, and the costs involved.

Labor costs in the U.S. for simple menial manufacturing tasks are driven artificially high. You can thank unions for a lot of that, especially in automotive, textiles, etc. But we just put a very pro-labor, pro-union, liberal Democrat in office. Unions ensure you'll overpay for your labor.

Then there's taxes. The uninformed who do not run a business think an employee making $30K a year costs $30K a year. Wrong. Taxes, FICA, etc it all piles on.

Skilled jobs are leaving for same reasons. Forget the offshoring non-sense of adult. Look at real I.T. jobs. In most areas of the U.S. an IT Professional is going to go for $60K-120K depending on skill set, experience, etc. That's before taxes and bennies. To hire the best and brightest right now you need to add another 40% on top of that to cover the bennies and taxes.

Meanwhile, many Fortune 100 companies are sending tens of thousands of IT jobs to india. Typical costs for a mid-range IT Professional offshore? $30 an hour all inclusive. You dont have to provide desk space, computer, anything, you pay the outsourcing company $30 a year, tell 'em skill set you need. And you've got it. They're well educated and do good work as long as you can spec things well....not so good in the area of "thinking outside the box".

You gotta make the companies want to bring those jobs back here. Obama's idea? Tax companies who offshore. All that does is drive the entire company offshore.

Want a growth business for 2010? Staffing companies. If Obama executes his plan, you're not going to want employees, you're going to want to outsource as much as you can and make all of that overhead someone else's problem.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

I agree with you on production of goods, imports versus exports, etc. I just disagree on how to get there.

It's all about the jobs and who does the labor, and the costs involved.

Labor costs in the U.S. for simple menial manufacturing tasks are driven artificially high. You can thank unions for a lot of that, especially in automotive, textiles, etc. But we just put a very pro-labor, pro-union, liberal Democrat in office. Unions ensure you'll overpay for your labor.

Then there's taxes. The uninformed who do not run a business think an employee making $30K a year costs $30K a year. Wrong. Taxes, FICA, etc it all piles on.

Skilled jobs are leaving for same reasons. Forget the offshoring non-sense of adult. Look at real I.T. jobs. In most areas of the U.S. an IT Professional is going to go for $60K-120K depending on skill set, experience, etc. That's before taxes and bennies. To hire the best and brightest right now you need to add another 40% on top of that to cover the bennies and taxes.

Meanwhile, many Fortune 100 companies are sending tens of thousands of IT jobs to india. Typical costs for a mid-range IT Professional offshore? $30 an hour all inclusive. You dont have to provide desk space, computer, anything, you pay the outsourcing company $30 a year, tell 'em skill set you need. And you've got it. They're well educated and do good work as long as you can spec things well....not so good in the area of "thinking outside the box".

You gotta make the companies want to bring those jobs back here. Obama's idea? Tax companies who offshore. All that does is drive the entire company offshore.

Want a growth business for 2010? Staffing companies. If Obama executes his plan, you're not going to want employees, you're going to want to outsource as much as you can and make all of that overhead someone else's problem.

So really, your solution is just a fairer distribution of the wealth. Sounds like a plan. Sounds kinda familiar.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

So really, your solution is just a fairer distribution of the wealth. Sounds like a plan. Sounds kinda familiar.

Actually you're talking me into isolationism...

Slap on some tariffs and call it a day.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Actually you're talking me into isolationism...

Slap on some tariffs and call it a day.

Export or die. Otherwise the economy becomes like a snake swallowing its tail.

[RawAlex]

The movement of jobs offshore is the result of two very basic forces:

Americans (and Canadians for the most part) demand tons of customer service / work / support / whatever for the money spent - specifically very true on services like cell phones, cable tv, etc.

Americans (and Canadians for the most part) value their own work much higher than they value the work of anyone else (even their neighbors) so they are unwilling to work cheap, but expect everyone else to do it so they can get cheap services.

The solution has been to move stuff offshore. From rote coding to horrible telephone support, countries like India have filled the need for companies to keep their bottom line reasonable all while offering their customers more services, more "whatever" for a lower and lower price.

You asked for it, you got it. Don't complain

[softball]

None of us are economists.

I have to point out that economists got us into this mess. Personally, I think the opinion of an economist carries about the same weight as an astrologer. The more complicated they make it, the more money they earn, and the worse trouble we wind up in.
Simplify it. If you live beyond your means, borrowing from your neighbours and enemies, you will go broke. When you are in debt, you give up your freedom. Someone else can pull your strings. If you put your nose to the grindstone, and pay off all of that debt, you will regain your freedom. Only when you have financial freedom will you have the luxury of real freedom. But it has to be worked for. You don't just inherit it.