Troops starting to grumble...........

[sarettah]

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?...storyID=3394956

U.S. Troops Want Rumsfeld to Send Them Home
Fri September 5, 2003 10:34 AM ET

By Saul Hudson
TIKRIT, Iraq (Reuters) - If they had the chance, U.S. soldiers at a base in Iraq would have had one question for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld -- When are we going home?.

But Rumsfeld canceled a speech he was due to give on Friday to the troops at their base at the palace of deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein in his hometown of Tikrit.

"I don't give a damn about Rumsfeld. All I give a damn about is going home," Specialist Rue Gretton said, humping packs of water bottles on his shoulders from a truck.

"The only thing his visit meant for us was we had to clean up a lot of mess to make the place look pretty. And he didn't even look at it anyway," Gretton said after soldiers swept the dusty streets around the complex of lakes and mansions.

They also erected a stage and set out chairs for a speech that Rumsfeld canceled due to a tight schedule. Instead, the Pentagon chief briefly thanked soldiers after a meeting with military leaders.

"It was good for morale," said Major Josslyn Alberle, a spokeswoman for the Fourth Infantry Division headquartered at the palace.

Sergeant Green, 40, did not think so.

"If I got to talk to Rumsfeld I'd tell him to give us a return date. We've been here six months and the rumor is we'll be here until at least March. This is totally, totally uncalled for," she said.

Green, who asked not to be identified by her first name, complained she would miss seeing her 16-year-old through her whole school year.

[Vick]

Hmmmmm
While I can sympathize with the soldiers plight

Since when did soldiers make negative statements about higher ranking officials and policy publicly?

Are these the same American soldiers who used "time out" cards in boot camp?

[Meni]

does Iraq want Freedom?
They see the US's idea of Freedom
right there on MTV
Greed and Sex

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Meni@Sep 5 2003, 11:12 AM
does Iraq want Freedom?
They see the US's idea of Freedom
right there on MTV
Greed and Sex

yeah, that... or an NFL season opening game complete with rock stars, Aretha doing the anthem, many dollars worth of pyrotechnics, and the actual Commander-in-Chief taking time out of his busy schedule to make a short speech before the game.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Meni@Sep 5 2003, 10:12 AM
does Iraq want Freedom?
They see the US's idea of Freedom
right there on MTV
Greed and Sex

"Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy"

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Vick@Sep 5 2003, 10:04 AM
Hmmmmm
While I can sympathize with the soldiers plight

Since when did soldiers make negative statements about higher ranking officials and policy publicly?

Are these the same American soldiers who used "time out" cards in boot camp?

I'm suprised that folks would allow their names to be used when being critical of the Secretary of Defense ... there is a good possibility that there will be reprecussions for the servicepeople who have family going public back home, so you can imagine what might happen to a servicemember who did it themselves.

I didn't see anything in the quoted article that was personally critical of Rumsfeld, or qualified as "bringing discredit on the service." Members of the Armed Forces are still citizens and have the right to free speech - including the right to bitch, which they exercise quite frequently. Comments like this fall into a gray area.

I don't know what a "time out card in bootcamp" is, but I can tell you this - bitching about a mission in no way implies that someone won't carry it out to the absolute best of their ability. Having nothing but utter contempt for the assholes up the chain of command - whether it's topped by Bill Clinon, George Bush, or whoeverthefuck - doesn't really impair your ability to carry out whatever orders are issued or accomplish any mission you are assigned.

[Vick]

PD - I hope your right - but I still can't get over soldiers on a mission publicly griping and grumbling to the press

A time out card is a card issued to soldiers in Boot Camp that the solider can use when they feel they need a "time out" from the DI
Basically the solider can "play" the card and the DI has to back off

They have only been issued over the past few years. Speak to any long time service person and they all have disdain for them. There are no "time outs" in fox holes

[Almighty Colin]

[Bex]

Is this not what they train for? Shit start complaining after it has been a year or something, but until then shut up and do your job! I can only think how hard it would be to go over there, but hey that is what they signed up for.

[Bex]

Originally posted by Colin@Sep 5 2003, 08:10 AM

Good point as well!!

[Almighty Colin]

I think one can safely say than in general if you look at any group of thousands of people you get a range of behaviors and there are always a few on the far left or the far right of the spectrum.

Hell, when US soldiers rolled into Baghdad some Iraqis waved flags, some tore down statues and pictures of Saddam and celebrated, some looted, some hid in their homes and some fired AK47's.

Something for everyone.

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Sep 5 2003, 11:51 AM
I didn't see anything in the quoted article that was personally critical of Rumsfeld, or qualified as "bringing discredit on the service." Members of the Armed Forces are still citizens and have the right to free speech - including the right to bitch, which they exercise quite frequently. Comments like this fall into a gray area.

Gray area indeed. Soldiers are citizens, yes... but they are not civilians.
Whether it's peacetime or wartime.

How much of a right to free speech do they have is a good question.

[PornoDoggy]

The "time out" card sounds like a pretty strange deal ... I could have used one for about three years of my ten years in , and I suspect there are two dozen people who think of me when they hear about them.

The military personnel who are over there were bitching when they started packing, will be bitching the entire time they are there, and will be bitching for years after they get back.

Yes ... they are doing what they signed up to do. There are people who are very quickly coming up on their year over there. I can tell you that changing your date to return home can really fuck with your head and your morale. I can't imagine what it would be like to be in a position where the powers that be seem as clueless as they have in this instance.

[dantheman]

Originally posted by Vick@Sep 5 2003, 10:57 AM
PD - I hope your right - but I still can't get over soldiers on a mission publicly griping and grumbling to the press

A time out card is a card issued to soldiers in Boot Camp that the solider can use when they feel they need a "time out" from the DI
Basically the solider can "play" the card and the DI has to back off

They have only been issued over the past few years. Speak to any long time service person and they all have disdain for them. There are no "time outs" in fox holes

hahahahahaha, I would love to see someone ask for a "time out" card on parris island. get your fucking ass kicked quick h34r:



Last edited by dantheman at Sep 5 2003, 11:27 AM

[Trev]

Originally posted by sarettah@Sep 5 2003, 03:52 PM
Sergeant Green, 40, did not think so.

Green, who asked not to be identified by her first name, complained she would miss seeing her 16-year-old through her whole school year.

I don't think a first name is really needed with everything they have to work with right there...



Last edited by Trev at Sep 5 2003, 05:39 PM

[sarettah]

Enlisted are allowed to bitch.......Officers are not....

From the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice for all you civvie types)

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj2.....htm#SUBCHAPTER X. PUNITIVE ARTICLES

[PornoDoggy]

Enlisted personnel have more lattitude than officers in this regard, at least on paper. However, charges can be brought under article 134 of the UCMJ.

934. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

[Trev]

Why do I get the feeling I'm surrounded by ex service people

[sextoyking]

We never had no damm time out card when I was in basic.

When the Drill Sgt's got on your ass there was nothing you could do but take it. Even when they called your mom names.

Most enlisted people and Nco's know not to speak bad in public about there military or civillan chain of command. Easy article 15 there.