Guardian Article Nails Down World View of U.S.

[Dravyk]

Here is a very well-written article in the UK's Guardian, that I'm recommending is worth a full read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...562902,00.html


Here's some snippets:

The waters flow in and the waters flow out, washing away all that once lay on the surface -and revealing what lies beneath. So it is with all floods in all places, but now it is America which stands exposed. And neither America nor the world much likes what it sees.

Most Americans want to believe that kind of inequality belongs in the past, in the school textbooks. But Katrina has shaken them from that delusion.

They have had to face another painful truth. Their government has proved itself incompetent. Yes, it could act quickly once it had decided to act - but it idled for days. This disastrous performance will surely saddle the remainder of George Bush's presidency, just as the botched Desert One rescue of American hostages from the besieged US embassy in Tehran hobbled that of Jimmy Carter. Americans expect competence from their leader as a minimum requirement. And if an image of a crashed helicopter in the Iranian desert could undo one president, surely pictures of an American city reduced to a Somali or Bangladeshi kind of chaos spell disaster for this one.

Finally, America will have to get over the shock of seeing itself in a new, unflattering light. It is not just the lawlessness, violence and gun culture that has been on show in New Orleans. It is also that America likes to think of itself as the "indispensable nation", the strongest, richest, most capable country on the face of the earth.

That belief had already taken a few blows. The vulnerability exposed on 9/11 was one. The struggle in Iraq - where America has become a Gulliver, tied down - was another. But now the giant has been hit again, its weak spot exposed. When corpses float in the streets for five days, the indispensable nation looks like a society that cannot take care of its own. When Sri Lanka offers to send emergency aid, the humiliation is complete.

[Newton]

Top dead balls on accurate

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

When Sri Lanka offers to send emergency aid, the humiliation is complete.

How the world turns, really makes me gape in wonder sometimes.

[Vick]

Great
A UK writer says how the "smaller" government doesn't work in the USA

I'm tiring from the debates here but suffice to say obviously I would not agree with much of the piece

However the last sentence
"It may look battered - but only a fool would count America out."
Is the redeeming feature of the article

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Vick

Great
A UK writer says how the "smaller" government doesn't work in the USA

What's the problem? The fact it was a UK writer or the fact the US Government doesn't seem to work?

[domtheboy]

Personally I'm amazed that none of the countries in the middle east has offered to send aid for pure piss take value (I was sure by now someone like Mugabe would have offered to ship some goats over just to twist the knife).

P.S. - Just an observation, not saying it would amuse me to see it happen in the slightest

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by domtheboy

Personally I'm amazed that none of the countries in the middle east has offered to send aid for pure piss take value (I was sure by now someone like Mugabe would have offered to ship some goats over just to twist the knife).

P.S. - Just an observation, not saying it would amuse me to see it happen in the slightest

Venuzula and cuba have

[XxXotic]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Venuzula and cuba have

not middle eastern countries though the whole offer from cuba really did throw me for a loop.

[Hell Puppy]

This generation saddens me.

As the WW II generation dies off, it's quite sad to look at the differences in the constitutions of members of that generation and what is coming of age now.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Venuzula and cuba have

So has Qatar, but they're an allie; no piss intended.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

This generation saddens me.

As the WW II generation dies off, it's quite sad to look at the differences in the constitutions of members of that generation and what is coming of age now.

I can read that too many ways. Elaborate, HP?

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Vick

Great
A UK writer says how the "smaller" government doesn't work in the USA

I'm tiring from the debates here but suffice to say obviously I would not agree with much of the piece.

So rarely do I find myself on the other side of the discussion fence with you, Vick. But this time I am.

Personally, I think you can be patriotic and still have your eyes open and your head above the sand. Matter of fact seeing things the way they are is a must.

Reminds me of addiction. First step to making things better is admitting there's a problem. Only by seeing what's messed up can we fix things and make them better.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

I can read that too many ways. Elaborate, HP?

I dunno if I really meant anything specific in this case...

But it seems like we're now in a generation that feels entitled. Instead of stepping up and doing whatever needs to be done, even if it means a little hardwork and personal sacrifice, people instead put their hand out and expect the government to take care of them.

[Vick]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

This generation saddens me.

As the WW II generation dies off, it's quite sad to look at the differences in the constitutions of members of that generation and what is coming of age now.

That's so right

I was raised by my grandparents who grew up in the great depression
A certain self reliance and work ethic was passed on from them among other things

I have concerns about the current youth generation who fortunately have never experienced sincere economic challenges (I entered the job market during the recession of the 70's with prime interest rates in the high teens, spiraling inflation and double digit unemployment) or faced country or worldwide adversity

It is the hope they would be able to rise to any challenges, in reality I'm not certain

We did well and wanted to share that with our children, to protect our children from the challenges we faced
But what did we get in return?

I hope we really never have to find out

[Vick]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

So rarely do I find myself on the other side of the discussion fence with you, Vick. But this time I am.

Personally, I think you can be patriotic and still have your eyes open and your head above the sand. Matter of fact seeing things the way they are is a must.

Reminds me of addiction. First step to making things better is admitting there's a problem. Only by seeing what's messed up can we fix things and make them better.

I will always be in favor of smaller government. For the most part I don't want or need the feds in my life

Way too many cry out to the "government" to help, the same government they curse

While I don't know the writers background and don't care to it strikes me a little off for someone outside the USA to say we did this wrong and that wrong and we need to do this or that

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by Vick

Great
A UK writer says how the "smaller" government doesn't work in the USA

I'm tiring from the debates here but suffice to say obviously I would not agree with much of the piece

However the last sentence
"It may look battered - but only a fool would count America out."
Is the redeeming feature of the article

The problem is not smaller gov't, its too MUCH gov't too many bueracrats!!!

[Dravyk]

Regarding this generation. I agree with you both, HP and Vick. Look at the newbie webmasters of the past few years; all they want to be is spoon-fed. That is indicitive of this generation.

As to how others see us. You can gripe all you want Vick whether they are seeing us in a true light or their light or whatever. Fact of the matter is, that's how they see us. And while I can respect the 'tude of "screw em, they see us wrong" ... fact of the matter is, everything is perception. If your company is great but there's a perception there's something wrong or crooked, real or unreal, the company will probably go under. With us the remaining "super power", we can't be (hell, no nation can be in this age) isolationist, so how we're perceived is major thing.

That and, I think, many of their perceptions are sadly true.

As to the big or small goverment thing. Katrina has plainly showed that major catastrophes of this scale over several states can NOT be adequately taken care of by the states alone. It can't be taken care of -- we've seen -- by states in conjunction with a weakened federal system (FEMA) either.

So overall government bigger or smaller? Won't go into that. But that department and a few others need to have major powers, some beefing up, and headed by people who know disaster relief -- as opposed to contract lawyers who've (badly) run horse pageants as their "qualifications".

And we have better get used to it. Global warming has increased the Gulf of Mexico by several degrees and rising. It's also increased sea level. Believe it or not those seemingly minute changes means more hurricanes of stronger force for the far foreseeable future. We better get our act together before the Katrina scenario becomes reptetive.

Want to hear more fun news? Turns out a Class 2 hurriance hitting NYC is equal to a Class 5 hitting New Orleans, several scientists said recently. Has to do with the combination of the land under the waves therer,the large bay, the width of the Hudson, Manhatten being an island, and that the skyscrapers intensify wind force.

[Red]

Originally Posted by domtheboy

Personally I'm amazed that none of the countries in the middle east has offered to send aid for pure piss take value (I was sure by now someone like Mugabe would have offered to ship some goats over just to twist the knife).

P.S. - Just an observation, not saying it would amuse me to see it happen in the slightest

Kuwait is giving an emergency package of 500 million in humanitarian aid and petroleum.

Bahrain: $5 million donation to assist with relief.

Israel has offered to send medical personal, equipment and supplies.

There is an interesting article with a list of what countries have offered what.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/05/kat...aid/index.html

[OldJeff]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

The problem is not smaller gov't, its too MUCH gov't too many bueracrats!!!

Have to agree here, smaller government is always good, what this situation needed was a much more EFFECTIVE government.

The one real mistake I see made by Bush here is the minute the levy's broke there should have been an immediate emergency meeting, or even congressional session to get the monies approved and the ball rolling. Something should have been rolling into NO the same day (or more than was).

Bush going to the disaster scenes is nice, makes the victems feel better, and provides some good photo ops, but in a real world is a waste of everyones time, unless he is slogging through the water to save someone, he is really just wasting resources that could otherwise be doing something usefull.

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

he is really just wasting resources that could otherwise be doing something usefull.

Sums him up really...

[PornoDoggy]

Who let my dad and my grandfathers into this thread?

It would take a mediocre researcher about ten minutes in a 2nd-rate library to find periodicals from the late 30s where almost everything Vick is saying about today's youth/culture is being said by some pontificator or another - about the greatest generation, as a matter of fact.

I was raised as much by grandparents who first had electricity in their home when they moved to St. Louis in '39 to get jobs in defense plants as I was by parents who were part of the greatest generation and lived through the depression themselves.

And as far as the "greatest generation" goes - yes, they accomplished mighty things, and please don't think I denigrate their accomplishments. But is America's greatest generation really any greater than that of England, who endured far more for far longer with far less than any in America? That doesn't even touch on what happened to the people of France or the Soviet Union; I have to wonder how well we would have weathered a small part of the horrors they underwent.

Again, for the reading impared and the stupid - I am not putting down my father's generation. I have begun to respect what they accomplished far more as I grow older. But don't count out today's youth just because they face challenges different than you did. They have yet to be tested.

The faces change, the lines all stay the same ...

[Rolo]

Fortunately generations overlap each other - its our symbiosis... no generation have absolut power at any point in time.

[Nickatilynx]

"Before you go and criticize the younger generation, just remember who raised them."

[Rolo]

Thank God, I have not raised anyone yet - so I´m not to blame for the irresponsible "bling bling" generation ;-)) but I´m sure that once I get to that point in time, when someone needs my guidance, then they will do everything to reject it, and create something that even worse than today´s generations... and I will be blamed for having created the "out of space" generation that only thinks of leaving this planet and letting the rest of us to rot ;-))

[JoesHO]

The policy of smoke and mirroes of this government have led to the decay, I mean have we not seen the decline in the USA in the last 5 yrs?

I mean like it or not when the dems were running things in the 90's
USA was showing signs of promise, hope integrity all the things it was founded on.

We were not laughed at by all including half of our own, But rather we were respected by all and known as the most powerful , richest country on earth.

do people really say that still now?

it is not this generation , it is this administration that led to this fall from grace.

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by Rolo

Thank God, I have not raised anyone yet - so I´m not to blame for the irresponsible "bling bling" generation ;-)) but I´m sure that once I get to that point in time, when someone needs my guidance, then they will do everything to reject it, and create something that even worse than today´s generations... and I will be blamed for having created the "out of space" generation that only thinks of leaving this planet and letting the rest of us to rot ;-))

Society raises all children

[Mike AI]

Anyone notice stock market? The US are resiliant people - even when we are lazy and slovenly we dominate. When we mobilzie and are focused....

Time will tell.

I am excpecting to come out of this natual disaster 100% stronger then before.

Life is great!

[Nickatilynx]

Exchange rate is falling like a rock though

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Exchange rate is falling like a rock though

don't sell America short!.....yet.

The hurricaine Katrina will fuel new economic boom in USA

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Exchange rate is falling like a rock though

Tell me about it

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Trev

Tell me about it

But still up, since the new year

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Rolo

But still up, since the new year

I was loving the steady climb

[Vick]

From my limited knowledge the same has been same of current generations of youth dating back to the days of the Romans


Also I don't know how familiar the writer is with how New Orleans actually got built, am sure there is someone here who is more well versed in it than I but from what I've been told (and I have visited NO up to 4 times a year)

The city started with the French Quarter, the inhabitants of the Quarter at that time didn't want the English settling there so the English moved and settled in to what is currently known as the Garden District (Which helps to explain the differences in architecture)
Some slaves were housed or would meet on Sundays a few blocks outside the Quarter (where Louis Armstrong Park currently is)
These neighbors grew and expanded with the Quarter staying the same basic 8 x 13 block grid
With the influx of Irish (and others) into the city the area other areas were developed

Am not sure if anyone was forced into "low lying" areas as suggested in the article
Even the French Quarter is under sea level

Also most of the damage came from Lake Pontchartrain backing up and breaking out of many areas
One of the most devastated areas is Slidell which is a suburb and home to many Caucasians which doesn't exactly agree with the writers take on it being a race issue

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Vick

From my limited knowledge the same has been same of current generations of youth dating back to the days of the Romans

My father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said, that his father said that in his days children were better!

An old English joke