Thoughts on hr4472 ?

[JoesHO]

We all know censorship is a slippery slope ....

and we all know I am a liberal .


However just to play devils advocate here .

do you see any GOOD to come from this ? or do you honestly think it is just a harrasment tactic?


I mean is it time to legislate the wild content theft, and absurd amount of easy access pics to kids? Why do you think the statues are not actually aimed at this outcome ?

I mean PORN magazines and movies have always been around and have not been under such scrutiny. as they have safe guards already in effect .

have we thought objectiivly about the purpose of this all the way through ?

What is your take on it ?

[TheEnforcer]

First explain what hr4472 is and then I'll comment about it. Or link to an article that explains it.

[JoesHO]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-4472

[JoesHO]

Passed by both houses, and is looking to be signed by Bush on the 27th and become LAW!

if you are in this industry without a lawyer, and/or are any type of affiliate, you better get one PRONTO!

[Hammer]

I'm not so sure I'd run right out and hire an attorney, but I would recommend becoming a member of the FSC. They will certainly add this to their current lawsuit and we'll be covered by an injunction, just like we are currently, with the 2257 issue. Much of this bill is just as unconstitutional as many of the recent changes to 2257 and this will be tied up in the courts for years.

[fusionx]

Here's the full text (very long!) http://www.fight2257.com/full-text-of-hr-4472/

Here's a great article by Mark Kernes of AVN: http://www.fight2257.com/full-text-of-hr-4472/?p=127

[JoesHO]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I'm not so sure I'd run right out and hire an attorney, but I would recommend becoming a member of the FSC. They will certainly add this to their current lawsuit and we'll be covered by an injunction, just like we are currently, with the 2257 issue. Much of this bill is just as unconstitutional as many of the recent changes to 2257 and this will be tied up in the courts for years.

Ricoh stipulations, and 20yrs.... hmmm not a chance I am willing to take on a message board opinion.


Ricoh = forfitures of assets i.e. house, cars, PC,s bank accounts, etc......

beter not hope for the best in this case .

Better be DAMN SURE

[Jace]

I am going to get totally bashed for this, but I could care less

I could give one fuck less about any government law/bill/cock they try and push through, I got tired of playing scared long ago with them

What I do is legal, I fuck my wife on camera and people pay to see it....fuck them, fuck the new laws, fuck 2257 and fuck 4472

I am sick and tired of running scared from their bullshit, and after the whole 2257 shit I stopped even giving a fuck anymore

I know, I sound stupid and ignorant, and you can see the anarchist coming out of me (which rarely shows itself on the boards), but that is just how I feel

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

Ricoh stipulations, and 20yrs.... hmmm not a chance I am willing to take on a message board opinion.


Ricoh = forfitures of assets i.e. house, cars, PC,s bank accounts, etc......

beter not hope for the best in this case .

Better be DAMN SURE

Nothing but scare tactics.

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-4472

Glad I only do toons. Saw this shit coming a country mile ago and warned you guys way back when.



I can draw all the toons I want. Fuckin' with me about it is a violation of the First Amendment in a baaaaddddd way.

I was starting a new paysite and was going to add movies and pics but won't now. Instead I'll add just nude models of interest to art/drawing/painting/sculpture.

These new laws are just another socialist attempt to sue you guys doin' hardcore to pay for lawyers and doctors for poor people.

I'm glad though they're pumping up the volume on organized crime, sex offenders and racketeers. Extending the statute of limitations on certain crimes of violence is good.

[Hammer]

Sorry Greg, but I think your bubble is about to be burst, because they are talking about toons and anime when they refer to 'simulated sex'.

[pam]

Last year someone was busted for toons depicting underaged sex ....

I'm upset over this legislation but I don't do x-rated so won't worry about my sites. However, this limits what I can do without worrying.

I wish they would realize that most real CP is not produced by adult webmasters.

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Sorry Greg, but I think your bubble is about to be burst, because they are talking about toons and anime when they refer to 'simulated sex'.

Nope, called in and asked on that one. They're talking digital manipulation of images or photographs/movies or CG depictions.

Problem was people were taking real photos and manipulating them to look like you know what and that pissed off too many people.

Also, using computer graphics CG stuff to simulate CP. Guys thought they would get away with it under 1st amendment because no real humans were involved.

Now it's agin' the law. Should be.

[Greg B]

So before we go into any more ridiculous interpretations of this Bill, let's do something brilliant like...

READ IT FIRST.

Below you'll see a link and some points I posted.

Seems like any more deceptive practices used on adult sites is gonna be met with harshly. If you notice not once do the words cartoon, anime, nor hentai appear.


http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=h109-4472

9 (a) IN GENERAL.--Section 2257 of title 18, United
10 States Code, is amended--
11 (1) in subsection (a), by inserting after ``video-
12 tape,'' the following: ``digital image, digitally- or
13 computer-manipulated image of an actual human
14 being, picture,'';
15 (2) in subsection (e)(1), by adding at the end the
16 following: ``In this paragraph, the term `copy' in-
17 cludes every page of a website on which matter de-
18 scribed in subsection (a) appears.'';
19 (3) in subsection (f), by--
20 (A) in paragraph (3), by striking ``and''
21 after the semicolon;
22 ( in paragraph (4), by striking the period
23 and inserting ``; and''; and
24 (C) by adding at the end the following:
--
HR 4472 EAS 157
1 under this section shall be consecutive to any sentence im-
2 posed for the offense under that provision.''.
3 (b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT.--The table of sections at
4 the beginning of chapter 110 of title 18, United States Code,
5 is amended by adding at the end the following new item:
``2260A. Increased penalties for registered sex offenders.''.
6 SEC. 703. DECEPTION BY EMBEDDED WORDS OR IMAGES.
7 (a) IN GENERAL.--Chapter 110 of title 18, United
8 States Code, is amended by inserting after section 2252B
9 the following:
10 `` 2252C. Misleading words or digital images on the
11 Internet

12 ``(a) IN GENERAL.--Whoever knowingly embeds words
13 or digital images into the source code of a website with the
14 intent to deceive a person into viewing material consti-
15 tuting obscenity shall be fined under this title and impris-
16 oned for not more than 10 years.
17 ``(b) MINORS.--Whoever knowingly embeds words or
18 digital images into the source code of a website with the
19 intent to deceive a minor into viewing material harmful
20 to minors on the Internet shall be fined under this title and
21 imprisoned for not more than 20 years.
22 ``(c) CONSTRUCTION.--For the purposes of this section,
23 a word or digital image that clearly indicates the sexual
24 content of the site, such as `sex' or `porn', is not misleading.
25 ``(d) DEFINITIONS.--As used in this section--
HR 4472 EAS 158
1 ``(1) the terms `material that is harmful to mi-
2 nors' and `sex' have the meaning given such terms in
3 section 2252B; and
4 ``(2) the term `source code' means the combina-
5 tion of text and other characters comprising the con-
6 tent, both viewable and nonviewable, of a web page,
7 including any website publishing language, program-
8 ming language, protocol or functional content, as well
9 as any successor languages or protocols.''.
10 (b) TABLE SECTIONS.--The table of sections for
OF
11 chapter 110 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by
12 inserting after the item relating to section 2252B the fol-
13 lowing:
``2252C. Misleading words or digital images on the Internet.''.

[Hammer]

4472 and 2257 do not directly affect anime or erotic drawings, but the new changes will have a trickle down effect on the government's definition of obscenity and although you won't have to deal with the record keeping issues, you will have issues. There have been obscenity arrests lately concerning both erotic stories and illustrations so depending on what is depicted in your illustrations, you still need to be concerned.

I'm not saying that the government's attack on our rights of free speech is constitutional, but it's happening all the same.

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by Hammer

4472 and 2257 do not directly affect anime or erotic drawings, but the new changes will have a trickle down effect on the government's definition of obscenity and although you won't have to deal with the record keeping issues, you will have issues. There have been obscenity arrests lately concerning both erotic stories and illustrations so depending on what is depicted in your illustrations, you still need to be concerned.

I'm not saying that the government's attack on our rights of free speech is constitutional, but it's happening all the same.

Hammer I can understand your concerns but let me explain what's going on here in regard to my line of work.

This Bill is for the general control of real creepy criminal fuckheads. If you're a decent enough webmaster you've nothing to be worried about. It's for those real evil pieces of shit that prey on children. They should be taken out and beaten with an axe handle if you ask me.

Leaning on a person doing illustrations carries with it a very, very harsh penalty regarding 1st amendment rights. Fuck up on a case like that and you will be forking out tens of millions of dollars in recompense. Literature and art are a major no no in prosecution because it carries so harshly a litigation factor of immense magnitude.

However, it's what you do with that art and literature is what can get you in trouble. If you deliberately administer it to underagers, as in this Bill if you read closely, the misleading use to solicit underagers then you're in deep shit. But you have to PROVE that deliberate action. It has to be so obvious it's without question. Ever hear of 'reasonable doubt'?

This Bill is only a means to give law enforcement and prosecutors the extra edge they need to go after the real pieces of deranged shit in our society. That's all. It's not gonna be a witch hunt because Republicans like their porn too.

[Hammer]

It sounds like you seriously believe that this bill actually has something to do with child porn.

"Literature and art are a major no no in prosecution because it carries so harshly a litigation factor of immense magnitude."

I take it you're not familiar with the Red Rose case.

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by Hammer

It sounds like you seriously believe that this bill actually has something to do with child porn.

"Literature and art are a major no no in prosecution because it carries so harshly a litigation factor of immense magnitude."

I take it you're not familiar with the Red Rose case.

Do you have a link to this case?

This bill explains exactly what it's about.

[Greg B]

Don't sweat it Hammer. I talked to the experts. This Bill is only for the scumbags who deliberately use their websites and skills to commit crimes like luring kids to their websites for purposes of seducing them.